Drachus

Also regarding the whole censorship thing... Wouldn't it be easier to have the swear word at least appear as "*" or have the option to toggle it on and off? Typing the whole sentence again and again until you figure out what's censored can truly be annoying.

Rezi wrote: »

Stop putting words in my mouth. I win at PvP plenty of times in different types of games - hack and slash, fighting, FPS, and even skill spam. It's just not fun because everything becomes meta. In games where mob AIs are terrible, which are the majority of games, PvP is more "fun" because it literally has the only amount of tactical combat in the game; but in pre-Rise Vindi, while there ARE mob patterns that can be memorized, mob AIs still randomize the order in which they use those patterns and bosses even have a complex aggro-switching system, to the point that meta PvP requires less intelligence than PvE does.

You misunderstood me, I am talking about specifically ONLY about Vindictus PvP, not any other game in that paragraph. Now let's move to the next part... I'm not sure if you're in complete denial or something but ALL attacks in Vindictus PvE can be predicted just by learning pre-animations. There is no point in denying that it is a literal fact. Just the fact that the patterns randomize doesn't prove a single thing. There is not a single attack on bosses that is executed instantly. Also I was saying that Vindictus PvP is based on predicting moves of your opponent and you've compared it to PvE? With what logic? In PvP you can bait your opponent into doing something, you can compare it to chess if you want. That's how most of the end-game PvP players play. In PvE on the other hand, the most you can do for baiting a boss to do a certain move is to make distance from it and wait for it to use it's "long-range" attack that's all. In PvP you have a counter for everything. Dodge, Invulnerability buff, smash attacks. Can the bosses in PvE dodge attacks? Can they stop you from dodging? Do they try to take as least damage as possible and win the exchange? They don't have counter for your actions, just huge amounts of HP. So again, using a boss as a punching bag that fights back and literally alerts you of it's attacks takes more intelligence than fighting an actual human? I'm not sure, answer that yourself. I'll repeat it once again PvE is 100% predictable.

Rezi wrote: »

As for getting used to mob patterns, you can get just as used to player patterns as - once again - the meta creates uniformity. Just as a player will master a boss after facing them enough, so will players master PvP if they face all of the classes enough.

You couldn't be more wrong with this statement. This rule would only apply if you had a pattern in PvP which would guarantee you a win, but there is none. You can get used to the attacks of a certain class but not the way that the PLAYER is executing them. Sure, one step into learning how to PvP in Vindictus would be to learn ALL the attacks of all classes so you know what you can expect. But you can't how they'll position themselves, how will they approach you, if they'll try to counter you or not. Here ALL of your moves matter and the different stamina scaling in PvP is what makes it interesting. I'm now returning to the point which I've made earlier: If you see a boss attack you will dodge his combo and then follow up with an attack and he will have to make some break before doing the next attack right? Now let's look at this scenario in PvP.... Let's say that you're playing a Lann and I'm playing a Vella, we're relatively on close range. Now let's look at all the possibilities that can occur....

Scenario one: I start building a combo attack (let's say I was aiming for LMB + LMB + RMB), as a Lann you can dodge and lift me from there and do a lift combo. In this scenario I've lost the exchange.
Scenario two: I start building a combo attack just like previously stated by I predict that you'd dash to me and try to lift me. Then I grab you on your dodge and win the exchange cause of that (Keep in mind that in PvP smash attacks are counters to Grab so if I was to fail my grab you'd lift me and I'd lose the exchange)
Scenario three: Same as before, I start building a combo attack while assuming that I've successfully baited you to use dodge which you do use but not towards me but towards the side and use a 2nd dash on Lann's dodge and lift me because you predicted that I'll use grab for your dodge.
Scenario four: I can approach with dodge and go with my RMB and you counter that with your dodge and predict that I'll follow up with another dodge + RMB and you just grab my dodge and win the exchange.

I can go on and list more scenarios what could happen but I think this was enough to prove my point. While in PvE you only have 2 scenarios (You will see the combo that the boss is doing which you've already witnessed countless times, counter the combo, with dodge or your block skill, after the combo finishes you'll move in to attack up until the boss starts another combo. Second case scenario you'll fail here somewhere along the way and get hit) in PvP, as you can see, there are way more possibilities than that.

PS: I feel like I need to add this, not in any way am I trash talking nor shaming PvE in Vindictus. Hell, it's pretty **** fun sometimes but it can grow to be repetitive over the time and that's fine. This game, by far has the best PvE combat system I've ever seen.

PooStick wrote: »

Rezi wrote: »

PvP? You mean that thing in most MMOs where people trade kills to get the rewards since it's not fun or balanced at all to do otherwise?

People should stop doing PvE cause that is unbalanced too. You're not going to be able to out damage a +15 lvl 90 whale in Neam especially after the Rise patch where the additional dmg gave those whales even more of an advantage. At least in PvP I have higher chance of beating a whale hurk than in PvE and I've done this using a Lynn. Besides what is so fun of just doing PvE all day its so easy to memorize the boss's attack pattern its not even a challenge. At least in PvP the patterns changes depending on the player.

T H A N K Y O U. But let me rephrase their argument. The reason why they don't like PvP is not only "balancing" but because they can't win. In PvP, as you already know, mechanics work differently than in PvE. Also, because PvE in Vindictus is so easy (Learn pre-animations + adjusting the timing = PvE) they are used on being OP. When they're put in arena PvP they will always find something to complain. Sure, it's not balanced nor fair sometimes but you can in theory beat anyone if you play with perfect deduction. There is not a single move in PvP which you just "CAN NOT AVOID/DODGE".

Rezi wrote: »

PooStick wrote: »

People should stop doing PvE cause that is unbalanced too.

Not when it comes to PvM. If anything, PvE at endgame is just PvP using mobs as scoreboards, and to that extent it is unbalanced - but you can't tell me that guilds don't work together to rig the mechanics in their favor. But true PvM - a battle of skill and wits against monster AIs - tends to be far more balanced in MMOs than PvP, as PvM is what most MMO developers focus on. While P2W does get in the way of that, PvM still remains more balanced compared to PvP because developers just don't care about fixing PvP; even games like ArcheAge, which claim to be designed for PvP, suffer from developer apathy for PvP balance.

I can agree with most of what you've said, but this is a pretty stupid argument to make "Not when it comes to PvM. If anything, PvE at endgame is just PvP using mobs as scoreboards, and to that extent it is unbalanced ". I'm not sure with what logic did you use compare one to another even at end-game PvE. PvP you're using deduction to try and figure out what your opponent will do, you can't rely on pre-animations as they don't exist in PvP(in 95% of the attacks) and EVERY attack in PvE has pre-animations on which you can rely. That's why I don't see the connection between these two but with the rest I agree. MMO's tend to focus more on PvE since it'll have a larger audience than PvP, most of the time at least.

In any case... The thing is how people view games and what their goal is. For example, for me I couldn't care less about max stats as they only change my numbers in damage. I can get 0 personal development from having higher stats. However, people on the other hand like to do the opposite. Play for stats and they like to be rewarded in items and that's completely fine. One of people's arguments against PvP is that it's not "rewarding" content as they easily get their artifacts by trading. It was suggested in the old forum EU, how to make PvP more enjoyable for everyone.

Easy method: Just put fixed stats in arena for every class.
Hard method (Unlikely to happen): Also keep in mind that I don't mean ALL characters to have the same stats. Every class in Vindictus is affected by stats differently so this is what Nexon could do... Gather players who are experienced in PvP and who know how it works to help them out test things and find the best stats for each class. Of course it'd take a while but this is the most efficient way of doing it, in my opinion at least.

After the first thing has been done - balancing equipment depending, you could move on to adding a ranking system (Similar to one in League of Legends and Blade and Soul). Make season rewards for it. For example the person who would end up with the highest rank would get a special title/costume/glow anything really. It doesn't have to necessarily affect his stats or make him have a boost in either PvP or PvE. This way, even PvP would have some rewards to it and it might motivate those people who I've mentioned above to actually give it a go.
I'll copy what a friend of mine wrote on EU's forums long time ago:

- balance out matching system, newbies would play with newbies, and pros would play with pros, which means that everyone would be able to win from time to time, opposite to how it is right now, where people are forced to join a person which holds the spot in Arena (other words person who wins the most)
- it would remove a possibility of rejoining to someone, because your opponent would be chosen by the ranking system instead of yourself, people wouldn't be able rejoin (trade), which would remove the possibility to abuse this system for rewards
- added rewards in form of 'seasons' (like in League of Legends for example or BnS) would be given to TOP players, other words people would have to actually play, and play well to receive them - meaning that leeching would not be possible if someone would try to achieve any sort of profit, and thanks to the way that Vindictus combat system works, believe me that there would be no way to create bots that win for this sort of thing (because Vindictus PvP combat actually requires brain and predicting human behaviors, intuition, something that a software can't do... unless you'd have some advanced AI system)

Source: https://forum.nexoneu.com/showthread.php?1553247-Make-seal-trading-in-arena-BANNABLE!&p=7451993&viewfull=1#post7451993

I find it kinda stupid that items obtained from PvP are affecting PvE and visa-versa (that's why I complained about equipment depending previously). That way people who find no interest in PvP wouldn't need to bother with it in the first place, but keep those fashon rewards in PvP so it'd have at least some value to it for those who are only playing for items. I'd only understand keeping the in PvP shop if they were ONLY a PvP luxury.

After all of these things are done, the devs could proceed to balance out the classes and certain mechanics, even though this is the smallest problem out of all. Keep in mind that even if they do all these things, the game could never reach perfect balance and it doesn't have to. Some things will always be more OP than the other things. I'm aware that these things are probably too much for the developers and are most unlikely to happen, but on EU at least, we've had a somewhat big community of PvP players. However, due to Dev's forsakening it most of them left game.

In the end.... Will people still complain? Of course they will. It's usually the same story over and over again. They can't win by spamming attacks they end up complaining how it's "unbalanced". God forbid them accepting that they suck and having to rely on their own skills instead of their stats. I've seen countless examples like these and it's truly sad how delusional and bias a person can be.

MyDelia wrote: »

The only way to be "good" in PvP is to learn the normal patterns that people take and then attack into the areas where they would be rather than where they currently are on the screen. But again, it's just a completely random thing because you are NEVER fighting someone. You are just fighting some ghost of theirs and they are actually never where they appear.

Again, I honestly have no idea what you're talking about. I don't know in what conditions you play in because I've never heard of "any" delay having THAT much influence. For me it happens rarely, maybe once in every 9 fights. Also PvP in Vindictus is based on prediction. You have to predict what your opponent will do and for that you develop a counter measure against it. If you just spam attacks without thinking your opponent will just get invulnerability buff and win the exchange with you and later on win the match.

MyDelia wrote: »

You might as well roll d20 dice all day and the one with the higher number ones.
Hurks, crossgun Kai, and Karoks get d20s.
The rest gets smaller and smaller die from there.

Okay tell me, which attack you can't dodge. Exclude this problem which you have with "fighting after images" because I've never experienced it to the extent you're describing it. Is there an attack in PvP which just CAN NOT be dodged? You're giving xgun kai way too much credit, imo they're at great disadvantage compared to other classes because they don't grab so you can literally spam dodge until you get invulnerability buff so you can approach them. They can't stop you from dodging around. If Karoks or Hurks spam attack, the situation is the same. Try to time your dodge to their smash so you get hit on your 2nd half of dodge animation to get invulnerability buff and then deal damage and repeat. Of course if they're not brainless they'll try to grab your dodge instead of feeding you free invuls.

MyDelia wrote: »

The "good players" are simply the ones who get lucky winning streaks or who always seem to roll high on average (again, the 3 mentioned classes) and think this completely RNG thing is worth doing so they keep doing it.

Back in the days, when DesireOfMine(Chain blade Vella) played actively on EU he could get 70 consecutive wins, would you call this luck? RNG? Fearmaster(TS lann) usually gets around 30 etc... If these are what you call RNG then these guys seriously must have enough luck to get a +20 from the first try *Sarcasm obviously*

MyDelia wrote: »

Oh, congrats, over 16000 wins in arena. As if that's supposed to mean something? All it means is he wasted enough time to play over 16000 arena battles.
It's like saying you have watched over 16000 Sesame Street episodes. The only thing impressive is that you had that much free time to waste.

Well you might consider it waste of time, but then again everything is. Every other game which you play is a waste of time. Me trying to explain this to you, also is a waste of time. You're free to not like PvP, it's fine I have a lot of friends who absolutely hate it but at least they admit that they don't know anything about it (basically saying that PvP is not their cup of tea and that's fine). The reason why I pointed out Fearmaster is because he rarely loses to a Hurk, Karoks or xgun Kai's that you so much glorified. But you missed you either missed the point or misunderstood the fact that I used his numbers as a sort of an indicator to his achievemnts.

MyDelia wrote: »

For MMORPGs with worthwhile PvP go look at something like Elsword, Dragon Nest, or Blade and Soul.
Don't even try to lie to yourself that PvP in Vindictus matters beyond seal trading for the artifacts or emblems if you want something extra.

I can't say anything about Dragon's Nest as I've never played before. I agree on Elsword, it's a nice PvP mode, enjoyed it. But Blade and Soul I disagree to a certain extent. You can maybe blame this on my lack of experience in that game I didn't play it for long but all I can say is this... In Blade and Soul there is little to ANY personal design in it. Everyone's playing a certain thing the same way. The only difference is how used you are in fighting other classes so you can repeat the same thing with better adjustments to your opponent, in other words if I was to select one class and it's best possible outcome I'd just repeat the same thing over and over again. Now, in case you want to say that the same thing is in Vindictus PvP, you're wrong. I have never met ANY Vella (TS) who plays it the same way I do. Most just do random spamming and lose then complain how weak they are. I even had situations where I went on my smurf TS Vella to PvP against people and they figured out that it's me just from my playstyle. There is even a Video posted above about one doing it like that (Yes looking at you Drusa . While he's good in PvE his PvP playstyle consisted of constant spamming and that's why he lost to a really undergeared Karok, didn't try to grab on dodge nor normal attacks, tried abusing lift after knock many times but failed, hits someone on dodge/invulnerability buff then says "I'm not doing any damage what the **** is this").
Also one thing I'd like to add about this that PvP in Vindictus doesn't go beyond seal trading... Well, bluntly put, some people are more satisfied with their personal progress than getting items. PvP on EU was quite active and there were MANY players who were playing the game just because of PvP because PvE content often gets repetitive and boring as all you have to do is learn pre-animations and adjust your timing to it and you're good to go. (PS: Now hold up, I'm not trashing PvE in vindictus here since everyone gets so triggered when I say this. I honestly think Vindictus has one of the best combat systems to ever be introduced as far as my experience goes).

Not gonna link the last paragraph since the text is already big enough. If you want I can post video's here of me fighting xgun kai's so you can see it's not as broken as you say it is. And about the last part.... Again, I'm not sure what kind of packet data loss do you suffer. I myself only experience rarely, it can happen when there are a lot of people in Arena and then it causes it to lag a bit but even then it's not as drastic.


====================================================================================
And now, let me list some of the things you could call PvP out on. (Gonna do your job for you )
1) Gear depending - It creates unfair advantages
2) Certain combo's/attacks not being adjusted so they fit PvP - Example: Your fav Hurk's revenge buff that deals way too much damage. Sylas' stamina cost on shift + RMB (vella can deflect it which is nice), Lift damage in PvP is punishing a mistake of a player who uses a normal or grab way too much. Improving certain grabs for example, Fiona's and Evie's are just horrible as they're way too narrow.
3) Putting things that are usable in PvE obtainable by PvP - Artifacts. I hate it that I have to go to PvE to get gear for PvP because of equipment depending to a certain extent and I would love that to be fixed, so the same should apply to Artifacts for PvE players. Why be forced to do PvP for something that you don't care about and ruin the experience of those players who want to fight just by joining and suiciding. The bad thing about that is that players would have no need to ever bother learning how to PvP. I don't necessarily blame players for this, this is the fault of Devs and Nexon for letting an idea this great stay "literally" in alpha phase and I understand why some people would find it unappealing. However, saying that it sucks because you didn't spend enough time trying to learn it is pretty much being narrow-minded. (Though... I still think that artifacts are more of a PvP luxury which is usable in PvE, I could be bias about this)

In conclusion... The idea of this PvP as I stated in my first response is GREAT, but it needs more development put in it. With equal equipment, fixing abuses (attacking after knock where your opponent has no room to defend himself, which usually result in perma-lifts etc..), adding ranking systems to make it more competitive (Similar to what Blade and Soul has) and adjusting some (yes SOME! Don't use this as an argument "Oh I've told you that PvP would be better if they changed everything about it". I'll repeat it again since I don't want to return to this topic again. The thing which I like about this PvP is the IDEA, there are things which I'm strictly against but overall it's good) character mechanics in PvP. I honestly wish Vindictus Developers would have an open mind about this as well as the players.

@MyDelia

MyDelia wrote: »

The most powerful characters in PvP are those with large aoe attacks that can hit outside of dodge range as well as characters with spammable movement/invincibility.

This means characters like Karok, Hurk, and xgun Kai are simply ridiculous in PvP.
If you're playing something else then you better pray.

Okay in this whole text I can agree on only one thing (partially) and that is that Hurk and Karok are ridiculous in PvP. As far as the rest is concerned... What...? Well I must be a rare pokemon because I main a TS vella. Your problem is chasing someone, ever heard of grab? Vella is even a counter for xgun kai imho as we can deflect hollow shots straight to their face. You're a classical example of someone who thinks they're good in PvE so they come to the conclusion that they can do the same thing in PvP and get destroyed and start blaming everything around them instead of getting good. I'm not excluding the fact that Karoks and Hurks are simply ridiculous in PvP as I've said before, but even they can be countered.

MyDelia wrote: »

You don't ever hear a Vella or Delia saying PvP mode is the greatest. It's always some Hurk or some xgun Kai thinking PvP mode is really good.

As I said I'm a TS vella and I think PvP in Vindictus is a great idea but it has been forsaken by the Devs.

MyDelia wrote: »

Cross cut doesn't work, your attacks are really slow by comparison and hit only a really small area, your dodge is not as spammable and doesn't give invincibility the same way Kai's roll or Hurk's impenetrable does. So you literally suck at it.

Xcut doesn't work? I'll just leave this here https://youtube.com/watch?v=mUIGFm3javo

MyDelia wrote: »

The chasing ghosts and shadows thing is already apparent in normal PvP gameplay. Sometimes you'll hit a person but no damage will register. Why? Because on their screen when your attack went in they were in invincibility and/or were nowhere near you. So again, things like Hurk that can spam impenetrable around and not ever really be hit, or xgun Kai that can spam dodge around and hit a huge area with Hollow Shot, they are op. Or hopping Evie. etcetc.

I'm not sure about the first part of this paragraph. I'm not sure if I misunderstood but you're complaining about invulnerability buff? The buff which you get on the 2nd half of your dodge animation after predicting your opponents smash? I'm not sure really, but I've never had those issues with hitboxes that you're mentioning now.

IN CONCLUSION.....
Judging from what you've wrote, it's clear that you have no experience in PvP what so ever. You never bothered to learn it, instead it sounds like you're playing it just like you'd play PvE and then complain how you can't win because system etc. I've noticed that this is quite common in the whole Vindictus community. Not necessarily PvP related, but in general. People like to complain a lot about things that don't go in their favor. Yes I agree that PvP needs more work put into it and that it's quite outdated. But your statements don't prove a single thing.

PS: Also forgot to add, one of the best pvpers on EU is Fearmaster (TS lann with over 16k wins in arena) so just another situation where you're wrong about lann (for example) being weak.