DesireOfMine

ERROR wrote: »

Hope she comes to her senses and passes the database on to someone else. No point in punishing the whole community.

I strongly disagree. The decision about closing Vindictus Inn is the correct one.
Case and point:
1. Vindictus Inn is a useful tool for tons of players (helps players = helps Nexon).
2. Most of players don't even know who's behind this website - so how could they care about ban of Sanitee?
3. If the website stays, not many people will speak up, because it won't make basically any difference to them, if the website is gone however - people will notice.
4. It's not only about Sanitee (it is currently), however if you've read the post on Vindictus Inn, you will know that the issue is with BlackCipher that falsely detects 'intrusion', which means that anyone who would like to contribute and help Vindictus community by managing this kind of website - is in danger of receiving ban.

Removing the website is the best option to grab attention of players who find this website useful, to show Nexon how much helpful it is, and that people who develop it - make good work, and by no means they shouldn't receive any ban. In fact they should pay them lol xD, they basically do all the work that Nexon should - FOR FREE... and what do they receive instead? BAN.

I've seen ridiculousness of NA management, heard about it from others tons of times... you shouldn't accept anything they do just because you accept their authority. They are normal PEOPLE same as you - they make mistakes as well... and possibly not everybody really cares about their job and they just follow simple guidelines without any reasonable considerations regarding separate cases.

People who are eager for 'criticism' or 'hating' instead of actually trying to help other people to learn are... well ^^.

However on the other side, it also depends how someone perceives exact situation. I don't know exactly how it looks like in NA PvP, but in general there are some people who talk to each other with 'insults' as part of a normal conversation. It all depends how someone takes it.

My personal advice would be as @Arrow95 mentioned - just ignore this kind of people, and set your own course. Interact with people who fit your preference and don't bother with people who do not. There is no point to care about 'what other people think', rly... IT IS IMPORTANT TO LISTEN people, but then you have to evaluate their response - and if it sounds stupid and you can't possibly have any reasonable discussion with these people... just ignore it.

Some people are like 'this', and some like 'this'... you should also be careful to not generalize everyone who plays PvP and think that they all are 'like this'. I can say the very same thing about PvE. I've meet tons of unpleasant people who play PvE, but it doesn't mean that everyone is like this.
You can also try to create your own 'community', a group of people with who you can enjoy the gameplay with.

If anyone would be interested in PvP, but doesn't really know where to start - you can contact me. I would be very happy to help you learn more about PvP ^^.

Continuation...


[QUOTE=Sylarius] This is the most uninformed post I have ever seen. I don't know if I even want to respond. Fight anyone good in boat pvp and you would get destroyed, good luck attack spamming them. The counter system is dodge/get good, something that you don't have to do with your stats evidently. [/QUOTE]

I've started to play Vindictus in second half of December 2013, and i've joined first PvP around 1-2 months later (there was no Arena back then yet so i was mainly playing Free Match). Back then i've played with stats like 10k ATT and 2k DEF, practically no speed, crit, HP or anything... while other players had above 20k ATT, 10k DEF, high speed, crit, etc. I would lose most of the time, but i would keep trying because i didn't expect the game to give me a win just by the right of my existence. I know it takes effort and time to learn and get good at something and i'm not one of those people who surrender easily just because something hurts my EGO.
I haven't spent a single peny on this game, and i've decided to build gear from PvP seal shop instead of PvE - simply because i couldn't afford myself on PvE gear. Nevertheless i've spent tons of time on farming PvE just to get the gold necessary. There was a period of time, when i was farming Colhen in Flames for approx. 10 hours daily, every day for 2 months in purpose to gather more gold - and at the end i've spent most of this gold on avatar items .
When Arena PvP was released, i was still playing with minimum stats which were provided by Arena system. I was losing most of the time (mostly due to equipment difference), but i didn't get discouraged and i was improving my knowledge and personal skills. Meanwhile when i was slowly getting better and better stats, i would practice and test every single character in Arena in details. I've made literally all characters at least on 40 lvl (so i could join Arena) and i would ask friends to join me in purpose to test their skills. I would test every single ability in every possible scenario/interaction that i could come up with - in purpose to understand how it works in details.
With time i would start winning more and more, and at some point when i've gathered a bit better stats (which weren't even close to end game builds that other people had... it was +10 PvP 80 lvl weapon with leo/valor, PvP not enhanced armor and PvP not enhanced accessories, no infusions or anything special) - there was literally no one at that point who could've stand against me. My rate of wins versus lost games was probably something like 200:1 (200 wins per 1 lost game). Many people didn't even want to join my room because they didn't even expect to have any chance against me (happens to this day ).

So yeah... this is my story of how it all started (said it just in case you thought you know everything about me...) - and it definitely isn't stats/equipment that made or makes me win now in PvP. I've started from point 0, slowly improving until i've became who i am now. I personally hate equipment depending and i wish it didn't exist in PvP, and whenever there is occasion, if someone wants to play with me without stats differences - i'm happy to dress off and play with 0 lvl weapon against each other.

Right now whenever i see someone who struggles, or is interested in PvP in general - i share with all the information i've gathered to help them learn this PvP system, because i know how much it takes to discover all of it just by yourself, and i know that not everybody can afford to spend as much time and effort on it as i did. I propose to people that i can teach them if they would like to know more, or sometimes i'm recommended by my friends and people reach to me by themselves and ask for help. I'm happy to see it, because i think that Vindictus PvP is a really nice system despite its many flaws... and i just wouldn't like to see it drawn under this 'sea' of misinformation that is being spread by people without any proper knowledge whatsoever, that just spread hatred around towards this system.

Just yesterday when i was teaching one another person, it felt kind of funny when he told me that he makes notes of all this . It's not a criticism, it probably is actually good for him to help him remember all this stuff, but it was just first time i've encountered someone who would make notes when i was teaching him .

I have also a friend Andrej - IGN: DualStab (and not just him because there are more people who do this, but him in particular because he does it more actively :P) who shares with the knowledge i gave him to other people as well. That also made me happy, because it's really hard to teach enough people just by myself to keep this PvP system alive, and so i appreciate his contribution towards this goal ^^.



[QUOTE=KuraiHotaru] This is probably gonna sound like a** licking, but @DesireOfMine is probably the most knowledgeable person about PvP in the game world wide with more than 25k total arena wins (do the math regarding time invested yourself) and many many hours invested in deducting mechanics and information about the PvP in itself [/QUOTE]

Actually it's above 28,000+ right now +cold... and thanks +shy.

[QUOTE=Sylarius] @DesireOfMine You have clearly not played boat pvp at all, your characters have a total of 57 duels, all of them likely trolls. I have over 1000 boat pvp duels (balanced for faitness) clocked now and multiple friends of mine have over 4000 total duels. [/QUOTE]

I don't have to play a lot of dungeon PvP to understand its mechanics, especially that those mechanics are exactly the same as in PvE combat. To make my point more clear, i will explain exactly what i mean - with reason and actual argumentation in details to what i say .

1. In dungeon PvP (same as in PvE combat) your dodge is limited by specified time, no matter of animation length. The reason it's wrong for PvP is simple. This system was designed for PvE combat, where all boss attacks are basically 100% predictable due to pre-attack animation, and the fact that all of these moves are programmed to work that way. When you play PvE, you learn boss pre-attack animations and practice the timing of your dodge, so whenever you see some animation - you know what is going to happen in f.e. 1 second, and you know exactly with precise timing when will the hit happen, so you can dodge all of them as long as you perform your dodge with perfect timing.
Now in PvP you play against another PERSON, who isn't programmed in any way, and doesn't perform any pre-attack animations in purpose to help you indicate in advance what will happen in a moment so you could time your dodge perfectly at that timing. Your opponent can use some attack a little earlier or with delay, or he may not use it at all, cancel it and use some other move. Another thing is that your opponent can simply spam attacks very fast one after another... however you can not lengthen your invulnerability on dodge in such scenario (even if you could predict it).
Let's say you predicted an attack at proper timing and you use dodge, but you get hit right after with another attack before you can make any other action because your character has to finish dodge animation first (especially if you have lower speed attack, which means that your animations are longer - which leaves you vulnerable for a longer period). Other words YOU SUCCEEDED PREDICTION - BUT YOU STILL GET HIT simply because you're unable to follow with any other action when necessary... does it make any sense? Nope.

^This in itself is already enough reason to see why it just doesn't work and isn't really skill-based... because no matter of your successful prediction and performing proper action - you may still get hit. Add to that the fact that you can easily perma-knock someone once you knocked him down by attacking him all the time with some fast attack whenever he tries to stand up... especially that in dungeon PvP normal attacks knock opponent down.

But let's go further. Low stamina usage, OP healing effects, etc. etc. a lot of stuff that was designed for PvE gameplay specifically, based on interaction with programmed boss (limited by its design and fully predictable). Things like this simply do not work properly in terms of PvP, because these mechanics weren't designed for it.

Low stamina usage allows for much easier brainless spamming, because you're very unlikely to run out of it... or as Hurk, let's look at his Transcendent skill which allows him to use his HP as stamina - which in dungeon PvP (PvE mechanics) basically doesn't take any relevant amount of HP... other words he has limitless stamina. Or his dodge absorption length, opposite to most of other characters is very long (around 0.7 on first dodge, and lengthen to above 1 sec if he uses charge+blockade)... combined with possibility to cancel one dodge with another almost immediately, long before his absorption ends - he can basically spam it and absorb damage all the time (again - something which most other characters don't have). Additionally he can heal himself from Revenge stacks, which outperforms the damage he receives on dodge absorption by a lot (if he has high WILL value), not mentioning the damage from his smash attacks combined with Revenge buff, and ability to easily exchange those powerful smashes with dodge all the time just by clicking 2 freaking buttons.

I could keep going, but there is no reason for it. My point is very clear i believe (tho you probably will keep denying it anyway). In general as mentioned before - these mechanics aren't adjusted towards PvP interactions AT ALL. They work properly only in PvE interactions with 100% predictable moves of programmed bosses, where it's about practice of timing and not prediction of moves (which is the main part of PvP systems).


On the opposite side in Arena PvP, you have totally different system.
1. Dodge invulnerability time is equal to its animation - which means that YOU CAN ACTUALLY DODGE AN ATTACK WHEN YOU CLICK DODGE, no matter if opponent is brainlessly spamming or not, because in any situation you're capable to respond with next action which is necessary right after.
2. Spamming invulnerability being an issue? No problem, just use grab to counter invulnerability which will put opponent into exhaust state and follow with smash to deal damage (issue being that not all characters have grab available... tho i've never said that the system is 100% perfect, just the basic design is really good).
3. Issue with someone grabbing you? No problem, just use smash to counter his grab - whenever you're in smash animation you're invulnerable to grab exhaust... and at the same time you will most probably hit an opponent and deal damage to him.
4. And back to square one - avoiding smash (attacks), which you counter by using dodge.

Here is a little graph showing this counter loop system (it's sort of like rock/paper/scissors):
http://i.imgur.com/W5VBA9H.png

5. Increased stamina usage - which makes brainless spamming abilities less effective, and makes moves performed with purpose and thought more meaningful and effective (because when you have less possible 'trials' - you need to use them 'with brain' and accordingly to situation).
6. Removed effects/abilities which just do not work properly with PvP interactions, for example healing from revenge buff... or shields from evie, etc. (i could make the whole list, but it isn't necessary).
7. Limited Arena space with spikes to force players to think about their positioning more, which limits their possibilities to run forever and ever.
8. Time limitation to put bigger pressure on interactions and force players to play more offensively rather than just 'wait for an occasion'.
9. Etc. etc.


Continuation in next post (cuz too many characters)...

[QUOTE=Arrow95]If your on West I wouldn't mind to see what you're made of, sorry if you thought my motto was egotistical but I havnt had a good challenage in a long time[/QUOTE]

No, no... I said it as joke :P. The truth is that the only actually objective way to get know who's better - is to play against each other. I'm from EU server, so unfortunately it won't be possible for us to play in competitive way without lags... unless you're planning to visit EU somewhere in the future, and you'll have access to some PC xD (because i'm not planning to visit US anytime soon - if ever).


[QUOTE=Arrow95]About the lag it would be nice if all the Servers could come together without any lag, Pvp wouldn't be so dead then.[/QUOTE]

Merging servers which are far away from each other without lags won't be ever possible, unless scientists master quantum teleportation (entanglement of particles) somewhere in the future . If it ever happens then we could play games with 0 ping literally, no matter of the distance xD. However currently we're limited by the speed of light, so it takes time for the information to travel through the internet... which causes lag depending on distance ^^.

If it's about 'PvP being dead', we don't have to merge servers to increase population. The issue with population in Vindictus PvP is mostly due to terrible matching system, equipment depending and lack of any description of PvP mechanics whatsoever. Many people (who complain on Vindictus PvP) will tell you stuff like 'it's not balanced' or whatever... and even tho i don't say that it is balanced, i disagree with the notion that it's the cause of this PvP being inactive.

All MMO RPG games are unbalanced. There is no single balanced PvP on the market , yet it does not discourage people from playing these games. The issue is that in Vindictus, most of the players will keep losing all the time - which discourages them from playing.
Right now when you enter Arena PvP, you have 4 rooms, and you have to join one of them to play. The person who wins stays in the room, which means that it will be strongest (most effective) players who will keep playing all the time, and everyone else must wait in the queue and join them to play. This means that if you're not 'the best', so especially if you're new or with low equipment... you will keep losing all the time. People care about their EGO more than they admit, and not many of them are enough persistent to sustain this chain of lost games and not get discouraged in the process.

To fix that - we need ranking system. Not for the points, medals or whatever... but for matching players according to their effectiveness. With ranking system, if you lose the match - you lose points, if you win match - you gain points. In this way, the game can assess in general 'how strong someone is' and match that player with another player who has similar points. This would mean that for example newbies would play with newbies, and pros would play with pros. Other words everyone would have around 50/50 chance to win in their fights, so everyone could win some fights from time to time - which means that players wouldn't get discouraged that often = more population.

Second thing - equipment depending. I won't talk much about this in here, since it's pretty obvious why it's wrong in PvP (i guess), but if you want you can watch my video, where i basically explain this as well:
Simply put, it makes players lose even tho they shouldn't (because stats don't mean anything), and for many it's a barrier that makes PvP unplayable to them if they have too low equipment and can't get better one due to 'money' issues. So yeah, by having equipment depending in PvP - we lose many players who would join otherwise.

Third - lack of description about PvP mechanics/skills. If you don't know how 'the game' works, if you don't know what you're doing - you can't actually play it... it's simple as that. Btw. this is the reason which encouraged me to make YT channel for PvP Guide, to help people learn (i hope it will have some impact and help people to enjoy this PvP more... it's the least i can do).

So yeah, ^these are the 3 main reasons why Vindictus PvP struggles with population. I could mention other things as well, but they are less relevant, and for the matter of this forum topic, not worth mentioning (also i'm very sleepy, so i want to finish this post already xD). So... good night .