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RIP our usefull fansites

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  • GewelliriousGewellirious
    Vindictus Rep: 2,945
    Posts: 364
    Member
    edited January 23, 2017
    I suggest to correct the list of the banned programs by Black Cipher, because it's definitely flawed (:
    Paranoia isn't always good as well, and have to mind overlay stuff also uses the same method as hacking, which is why it's considered bad by Black Cipher.

    If competence there is, it's time to fix this.
    Bladehawk
  • ZuzukZuzuk
    Vindictus Rep: 1,690
    Posts: 155
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    Bladehawk wrote: »
    I agree that Nexon shouldn't have to reveal to the angry mob why they ban a player, and that everyone should be treated equally*. The problem here is two-fold:

    1) Sanitee showed us her private communication with Nexon. Nexon's reasoning why it wouldn't lift this recent ban was not because of what she allegedly did or any type of belligerence or aggression on her part. No, it was because "we unbanned you once, so we won't do it again."

    What? I'll have to re-read the ToS to see if that's included, because if it's not, it's an idiotic reason. If it IS included, it's an idiotic inclusion. Every ban should be reviewed on its own merits, regardless of past actions. "Repeat offenders" should be given harsher penalties off the bat, but should be given the same chance at a fair review as anyone else. Refusing to review whether a ban is justified because "you already got a second chance" is garbage.

    2) BlackCipher is a terrible program surrounded in superstition and mistrust. Without sufficient information from Nexon - information which will never be revealed because it would help botters and exploit makers - we come to our own conclusions and trust the opinions of those who have been screwed over by the program. Those conclusions are that ANYONE can be unjustly banned, thanks to BlackCipher. Such a reality would actually not be a problem IF Nexon had a fair review policy. But, as explained in the first point, they don't.

    If you truly decided to fix your process, it would be better for everyone.

    *Lastly, on the fansites topic: successful companies like Blizzard don't mind that people datamine their games. In fact, they embrace and promote sites like Wowhead and MMO-Champion for providing quick, accurate, and useful information to the playerbase. I suggest working with players like Sanitee and Shippuu to find out why they've decided to shut down their fansites and how Nexon can treat them better in the future. If they are punished for activities related to their fansites (e.g., looking at COPIES of game files), then that must be taken into account. The best solution would be to make sure they're not regular players at all; I'm not saying hire them outright, but make it clear they have some privileges because they're providing an invaluable service to the community.

    This ^ everything about this, shes known to datamine so they should really pay attention if thats what triggered the autoban.

    Btw ill like to make sure that BlackCipher takes data mining as an offense, i heard that the program counts every offense, then when they reach a certain ammount, the account is permabanned, we should REALLY know about that, in fact, we should have a bar to know how many ninja offenses we have, Ive got some weird messages from BlackCipher while running other games and im for damn sure im not the only one that as experimented this, so yeah, we must know!!!
  • MrGoldMrGold
    Vindictus Rep: 1,490
    Posts: 366
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    edited January 23, 2017
    I support the deactivation of the fansites due to the lack of specific information that has been given to the community. Even police officers have to state why you're under arrest, and the specifics of it. If not, it's just an unprofessional power play that has been documented many times via youtube. All we, the community, know is that Nexon has permanently banned her for the unauthorized use of a program via blackcipher. We haven't been told what program she has been flagged for. That is a massive piece of missing information that has caused this whole fiasco.

    The SasoriTetsu case was very cut and dry. We all saw his posts and megas to sell his account. He himself even admitted to it. Even if he was the owner of these fansites, and took them down, the perma ban would have been justified. Sanitee's perma ban has yet to be justified, and it is in the best interest of Nexon NA to now keep everyone up to date on it in all regards. There have been countless players, with no fansites or popularity, in the past, that have been banned unjustly and put through rigorous corporate motions in order to be unbanned.

    The fansite deactivation is a wake up call to the community, to the company, to the moderators, and to the staff. That the community of unjustly banned players, will not tolerate this type of cold treatment without specific details being given to them about their bans. They are human beings just like you and I, so try to exercise some empathy, and try to put yourself in their situation. There is a massive difference between logging into vindictus to see a message telling you that you are permanently banned, verses a professionally written empathic email documenting every piece of information regarding your ban and explaining the steps you need to perform to get it resolved.

    Again, I support the deactivation of the fansites due to the lack of specific information that has been given to the community. This is now a public personal community matter, and we deserve to be informed at every step in this permanent ban review process. That is the very least you can do as staff members, and as decent human beings. How you choose to proceed now, will forever define you in the eyes of those reading this. Tread carefully.
    VelisiriaBolivardiBladehawkArishaLXieDinko4TheWinKhloeYurehaGhengisJohn
  • AequipondiumAequipondium
    Vindictus Rep: 1,965
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    Believe or not, this says on the TOS:

    You shall not have use the Service if you have previously been removed by Nexon, or previously been banned from playing any Nexon game;

    ---

    So as much as NexonNA staff want to lift the ban off Sanitee, I'm afraid they can't really do much unless they decide to change the ToS - which seems those like Saygo have no authority over.

    I'm not defending Nexon, but that specific clause really should be looked at considering the alleged instability of BlackCipher.

    Imagine having put as much effort as Sanitee into this game; leveling, gearing, and add to that in my opinion a very informative fan site - and all that effort thrown out the window because of a mistake.

    Also, shouldn't the NA team be able to identify what triggered BlackCipher to ban Sanitee? Depending on what the log says, can't that be used to lift the ban? Shouldn't that instead of "lifting the ban", which we know the team cannot do, render the ban inapplicable since there shouldn't be a ban in the first place? Hopefully a ban isn't ultimately dictated by a piece of software but by the people running the game.

    There are a lot of injustices stemmed from this game, unjustified bans are the worst in my opinion.
    Order5BladehawkArishaLXieArellaRothKhloeYurehaZupseroPixelPantsuJackNitro
  • Order5Order5
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    I suppose I will introduce this other perspective, one that Riot Games takes all the time: Reform.

    Details are important for reform; even if Sanitee's ban was justified and deserved, how will people improve without knowing what was wrong? Simply saying "don't run other programs except Vindictus" isn't a very good ban message.

    To be perfectly clear, I'm not defending anyone, just putting out a different perspective.
    NoburoBladehawkXieYureha
  • QueenOfManaQueenOfMana
    Vindictus Rep: 4,960
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    So sad :-( Hope they unban her. Vindictus Inn and Armory were the best tools
    XieKhloeBloodAngel
  • SoyuSoyu
    Vindictus Rep: 1,055
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    Seriously? I really want to know why she was banned. To me, there's no reason for her to risk her account and the selfless amounts of effort she put into those guides and websites. If anything, it was an accident. Some harmless program triggered BC and now Sanitee is being wrongfully blamed.

    I really hope the admins look into this matter more. She's a big part of the community. Not saying she should get special treatment but she deserves an explanation and so do we. If the autoban is triggered by a harmless program then, anyone of us could be next.
    XieYureha
  • Dinko4TheWinDinko4TheWin
    Vindictus Rep: 1,400
    Posts: 131
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    edited January 23, 2017
    Saygo wrote: »

    In all honesty, I am not sure why fan sites were mentioned. We don't have any control if a fansite goes down for any reason. If a fansite were to go down, that is their decision.

    I agree with that statement, but it was mentioned here because that is how we got information about the bans. If a player is unable to play the game anymore then they are likely to not update their fan-sites or they are more willing to shut down their websites.

    Saygo I know you had a few months with the Vindictus community, but us veterans know each other in the game. We have seen each other characters for years, and this is a loyalty based game. Sanitee is known for her hard work in game, and out (fan site). She is the last person that would try to harm this game. To this day I haven't read a bad post from her about any of Nexon's practices or mistakes.

    From what I understood from the ticket that she has been banned before. I want to educate you that there has been many instances that there was error in coding in the game, and auto banned people. The Kraken glitch which if you killed the boss there was a possibility of you getting banned. A hero mode glitch where people got banned for doing normal battles. Another error part of Nexon was the flour glitch where you purchase Flour in game for 100 gold, and the vendor offers you a higher price that what you have paid for it (Basically destroying the in game economy since people spammed this and made billions of gold per hour)... The enhancement glitch where basically everyone could get +15 weapons. (Many were removed, but some were missed)

    We as a community were very forgiving towards Nexon. It's the reason why us Veterans are still here today. Sanitee is one of them, and I know she is the last person that would purposely break the TOS.
    XiePixelPantsu
  • TamagoTamago
    Vindictus Rep: 5,360
    Posts: 733
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    edited January 23, 2017
    I agree with Black Cipher being flawed.

    A few months ago, the "unauthorized program detected" popup would randomly pop up on some days and not others for me. On the days that it popped up, I had already been in the game for 8 or more hours with no issues. I never got the popup again on the same day after relogging when the popup kicked me out of the game. I had no change in what was open each day and for sure had nothing "suspicious" open. The only other programs running were Skype, Steam, Discord, and Chrome.

    Another issue is that there is an autoban system in place that autobans you when you've gotten that "unauthorized program detected" popup a certain amount of times. This autobanner needs to be amended in addition to Black Cipher being improved (nothing can improve Black Cipher tbh) or replaced. I've known of several people who got autobanned from receiving that popup too many times, which is a bit concerning because most players have received this popup. Every time that popup appears, that's one step closer to an autoban. This isn't the first time the autobanner has been flawed. There were many instances in the past (hero mode glitch, running too many runs, the list goes on and on.) If anything, removing the autobanner on this and disconnecting players who are using "suspicious" programs would be enough to stop them, since they would be kicked out of the game. This would prevent innocent players from being autobanned and would hinder people who are actually using "unauthorized programs" by constantly kicking them out. Not to mention, anything that could possibly be "hacked" for any kind of benefit is server-sided, which is pretty much impossible anyway. The only issues Vindictus really needs to deal with are the gold bots, really.

    Combat Arms used to use Black Cipher years ago, but it was changed to another program due to obvious reasons. On MapleStory, Black Cipher was known to constantly disconnect people randomly, but I am not sure if they still use it.

    Black Cipher also uses A LOT of your PC's resources. Many people lag due to this.

    As for the fansites, those were almost essential for playing the game: Armory to help plan builds and compare items, Inn for titles and pretty much everything else. These were sources of useful information and are services that should be provided to the players by the publisher themselves. The void left by Vindictus DB's shutdown was never completely filled, but the fansites came very close. Now, there is nothing. Nexon won't be harmed by the fact that the fansites are gone now, but the majority of players relied on them and will have to suffer. The playerbase is also very small now. Many of them are very old, loyal players that might not stick around for much longer after all of this.

    Believe or not, this says on the TOS:

    You shall not have use the Service if you have previously been removed by Nexon, or previously been banned from playing any Nexon game;

    This is quite ironic, actually. I read the response that was given and they had told her that she must make a new account to play again.
    MrGoldBladehawkXieKhloeGhengisJohnVelisiriaPixelPantsu
  • MrGoldMrGold
    Vindictus Rep: 1,490
    Posts: 366
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    edited January 23, 2017
    Mainichi wrote: »
    Believe or not, this says on the TOS:

    You shall not have use the Service if you have previously been removed by Nexon, or previously been banned from playing any Nexon game;

    This is quite ironic, actually. I read the response that was given and they had told her that she must make a new account to play again.


    That is an absurd response. No one in their right mind would remake a 6 year old character just because of a piece of software that randomly perma banned their account. If this ever happens to me, then I'm done playing Vindictus.
    XieKhloeYurehaBloodAngelGhengisJohnShizukaaJackNitro
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User]
    Vindictus Rep: 6,750
    edited January 24, 2017
    Following up with this thread.

    I've been on Vindictus for a little over a year now. That does not make me a veteran by any means, but I have gotten to know the community pretty well (Especially the ones that post a lot in the forums). The team enjoys reading all your comments and conversing with you on how we can make Vindictus better. We understand the impact of losing an active member of the community. Unfortunately we can't look the other way when a player breaks TOS.

    There has been a lot of conversation about Black Cypher. Unfortunately we can not go into details of any tools we use for security reasons. The team will discuss the Black Cypher tool and how it is affecting the community. Personally, I run all kinds of programs when I play Vindictus. I am sure everyone else does as well. The programs I run are probably completely different that the ones you run when playing Vindictus. I have never been banned. The majority of the community has probably never been banned. So if there are only a handful of players that get affected by this, we do our best to look into the issue and make sure its not something that can affect everyone. That would be a very serious problem. Now, if we look into the players being affected by Black Cypher and find that they are breaking TOS, that will lead to a ban.
  • MistyBerryMistyBerry
    Vindictus Rep: 785
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    edited January 24, 2017
    As you can sense from the posts, players tend to lean towards a lack of faith for the measures Nexon NA undertakes for Vindictus.

    So, the straightforward way to help bring this issue to light for some is to provide evidence for how Sanitee got banned. I'm sure the good people behind BlackCipher have implemented some sort of logging system for the staff to read in case any offense is made. Otherwise, it would be harder to debug the entire program in what it does and be accurate in its duties.

    As the other argument stands, Sanitee was not using any sort of tools that could instigate BlackCipher's wrath when she got autobanned.

    All you have to do is provide irrefutable evidence to that. You can satisfy the playerbase, find out what the incriminating process was so we can avoid using it, and close the issue in one fell swoop with just one action. You can make Vindictus better by cooperating with us. Please show us the logs.
    AequipondiumYureha
  • DokkunDokkun
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    Its not really anyone besides sanitees and nexons business, as they said before nexon rather would like to keep appeals player to company and not publish it to the world. If they do tell sanitee atleast what triggered black cipher, she is free to share as much or as little as she was told. So its better to be hoping they go through the logs and are willing to tell her
    Order5Yureha
  • XieXie
    Vindictus Rep: 2,115
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    edited January 24, 2017
    MistyBerry wrote: »
    As you can sense from the posts, players tend to lean towards a lack of faith for the measures Nexon NA undertakes for Vindictus.

    So, the straightforward way to help bring this issue to light for some is to provide evidence for how Sanitee got banned. I'm sure the good people behind BlackCipher have implemented some sort of logging system for the staff to read in case any offense is made. Otherwise, it would be harder to debug the entire program in what it does and be accurate in its duties.

    As the other argument stands, Sanitee was not using any sort of tools that could instigate BlackCipher's wrath when she got autobanned.

    All you have to do is provide irrefutable evidence to that. You can satisfy the playerbase, find out what the incriminating process was so we can avoid using it, and close the issue in one fell swoop with just one action. You can make Vindictus better by cooperating with us. Please show us the logs.

    I've been thinking through about this situation for a while, of all of the solutions that would satisfy Nexon, Sanitee, and the close-knit community. In the end, it all came down to one solution and I agree with Misty here.

    To be honest, I think this is an issue between Nexon and Sanitee. The problem escalated because she's a vital member to our small close-knit community and the result of the ban had indirectly impacted the community too, in the generous six years of selfless work that she provides for the community. Previously, SasoriTetsu was banned but the reaction from the community was completely different. Sasori knew the full details and result of his ban so he accepted the result and so did the commiunity.

    What was different this time was Nexon never told Sanitee the full details of the ban. Yes, she could no longer be unbanned because of the policy. But what was the program that triggered it? I think if Nexon would just let Sanitee know what program was flagged by Black Cipher then all of this would be over. Was the program actually suspicious? If it is, then the ban is justified. But if the program was not suspicious, then the ban was unjustified and the appropriate action should be taken. I don't think the community needs to know what program it was, only Sanitee. Once everything is justified, all of the reactions and drama from the community (that's related to this) will come to an end.

    Yureha
  • MrGoldMrGold
    Vindictus Rep: 1,490
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    edited January 24, 2017
    Saygo wrote: »
    Following up with this thread.

    I've been on Vindictus for a little over a year now. That does not make me a veteran by any means, but I have gotten to know the community pretty well (Especially the ones that post a lot in the forums). The team enjoys reading all your comments and conversing with you on how we can make Vindictus better. We understand the impact of losing an active member of the community. Unfortunately we can't look the other way when a player breaks TOS.

    There has been a lot of conversation about Black Cypher. Unfortunately we can not go into details of any tools we use for security reasons. The team will discuss the Black Cypher tool and how it is affecting the community. Personally, I run all kinds of programs when I play Vindictus. I am sure everyone else does as well. The programs I run are probably completely different that the ones you run when playing Vindictus. I have never been banned. The majority of the community has probably never been banned. So if there are only a handful of players that get affected by this, we do our best to look into the issue and make sure its not something that can affect everyone. That would be a very serious problem. Now, if we look into the players being affected by Black Cypher and find that they are breaking TOS, that will lead to a ban.


    The program that made Blackcipher flag Sanitee's ban better come to light, either to the community, or to her personally for her to share with us. If not, you will earn 0 trust from those witnessing this mess.

    How hard is it to look up log files and atleast tell the community that this was a legitimately illegal program that was being run? All I keep reading are backpedaling posts from staff members trying to save face while important questions aren't being answered.

    Is Blackcipher a third party program that needs time to process a request regarding specific details encompassing a ban? That would be nice to know. In a situation like this, the more important information presented the better. No offence, but your example regarding your own experience ingame is worthless. You don't nearly have the ingame hours that 99.9% of us on here have, and your community streams reflect that. You think you might know, but you have no idea.
    KhloeZuzukAnner
  • ZuzukZuzuk
    Vindictus Rep: 1,690
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    Dokkun wrote: »
    Its not really anyone besides sanitees and nexons business

    No, now we don have those usefull sites, besides yesterday was Sanitee, tomorrow it could be you or me.
    Also Sanitee says the only explanation nexon give to her is basicaly "we already unbanned u once, we cant do it again", thats not right.

    Another big problem here is that nobody trust BlackCipher, even Sagyo said he got banned once, the CM dude!. If we can only get 1 unban, considering BlackCipher autoban bad reputation, thats scary!! im actually scared that someday BlackCipher will autoban myaccount (even doe ive never banned before).

  • EleftherinaEleftherina
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    The lack of transparency from Nexon's team when it comes to these things is the major reason why Nexon has such a bad reputation. Somehow I get the sense that Nexon has no plan to change that stance. We will never know whether a ban is just or not. This extends to many other decisions they make like the nexon launcher. Ultimately, me saying all these is not going to change what Nexon does but I will likely start from not playing anything they publish.
    MrGoldKhloeYurehaZuzukPixelPantsu
  • MenrvaMenrva
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    edited January 24, 2017
    I swear, they want to kill their own game. It's dead enough as it is. It honestly does make me want to quit.
  • KhloeKhloe
    Vindictus Rep: 1,390
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    MrGold wrote: »
    No offence, but your example regarding your own experience ingame is worthless. You don't nearly have the ingame hours that 99.9% of us on here have, and your community streams reflect that. You think you might know, but you have no idea.
    ^ This, I don't know how many times I got so frustrated watching stream. The simple basics of the game he doesn't even know and it's pretty standard for most MMO games.

    I really hope Sanitee gets an explanation. 6 years of time and investment into a site to help a small community only to be banned. That kind of work deserves recognition. But then having to scrap all that work because you can no longer work on it anymore because of a seemingly unjust ban and no one would make a new account just to continue that kind of work when majority of it was all on her main. Because of the way Nexon is dealing with this, as well as many other things they've dealt with in the past from my perspective, I don't really want to stick around and I'm pretty sure others likely wouldn't want to either.
    MrGold
  • BirdSpiritBirdSpirit
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    The thing with online games is that a player's account is never really a player's. Nexon actually has the right to ban any account just because they want to. They are bound by no rule to provide a reason. Yes, this type of attitude is bad for business and it's no surprise a lot of people say Vindictus is dying. I would really like Nexon to justify their action, but given their terrible reputation of customer service, I highly doubt it.

    It would greatly be in Nexon's favor to discuss the details of justifying Sanitee's ban to us. I am told as soon as she submits a ticket, it is automatically closed. If this is the kind of behavior we should be expecting, then they might as well shut down the game. I've consistently told anyone who's asked me if they should start this game to stay away from it.