Drachus

PooStick wrote: »

Rezi wrote: »

PvP? You mean that thing in most MMOs where people trade kills to get the rewards since it's not fun or balanced at all to do otherwise?

People should stop doing PvE cause that is unbalanced too. You're not going to be able to out damage a +15 lvl 90 whale in Neam especially after the Rise patch where the additional dmg gave those whales even more of an advantage. At least in PvP I have higher chance of beating a whale hurk than in PvE and I've done this using a Lynn. Besides what is so fun of just doing PvE all day its so easy to memorize the boss's attack pattern its not even a challenge. At least in PvP the patterns changes depending on the player.

T H A N K Y O U. But let me rephrase their argument. The reason why they don't like PvP is not only "balancing" but because they can't win. In PvP, as you already know, mechanics work differently than in PvE. Also, because PvE in Vindictus is so easy (Learn pre-animations + adjusting the timing = PvE) they are used on being OP. When they're put in arena PvP they will always find something to complain. Sure, it's not balanced nor fair sometimes but you can in theory beat anyone if you play with perfect deduction. There is not a single move in PvP which you just "CAN NOT AVOID/DODGE".

Rezi wrote: »

PooStick wrote: »

People should stop doing PvE cause that is unbalanced too.

Not when it comes to PvM. If anything, PvE at endgame is just PvP using mobs as scoreboards, and to that extent it is unbalanced - but you can't tell me that guilds don't work together to rig the mechanics in their favor. But true PvM - a battle of skill and wits against monster AIs - tends to be far more balanced in MMOs than PvP, as PvM is what most MMO developers focus on. While P2W does get in the way of that, PvM still remains more balanced compared to PvP because developers just don't care about fixing PvP; even games like ArcheAge, which claim to be designed for PvP, suffer from developer apathy for PvP balance.

I can agree with most of what you've said, but this is a pretty stupid argument to make "Not when it comes to PvM. If anything, PvE at endgame is just PvP using mobs as scoreboards, and to that extent it is unbalanced ". I'm not sure with what logic did you use compare one to another even at end-game PvE. PvP you're using deduction to try and figure out what your opponent will do, you can't rely on pre-animations as they don't exist in PvP(in 95% of the attacks) and EVERY attack in PvE has pre-animations on which you can rely. That's why I don't see the connection between these two but with the rest I agree. MMO's tend to focus more on PvE since it'll have a larger audience than PvP, most of the time at least.

In any case... The thing is how people view games and what their goal is. For example, for me I couldn't care less about max stats as they only change my numbers in damage. I can get 0 personal development from having higher stats. However, people on the other hand like to do the opposite. Play for stats and they like to be rewarded in items and that's completely fine. One of people's arguments against PvP is that it's not "rewarding" content as they easily get their artifacts by trading. It was suggested in the old forum EU, how to make PvP more enjoyable for everyone.

Easy method: Just put fixed stats in arena for every class.
Hard method (Unlikely to happen): Also keep in mind that I don't mean ALL characters to have the same stats. Every class in Vindictus is affected by stats differently so this is what Nexon could do... Gather players who are experienced in PvP and who know how it works to help them out test things and find the best stats for each class. Of course it'd take a while but this is the most efficient way of doing it, in my opinion at least.

After the first thing has been done - balancing equipment depending, you could move on to adding a ranking system (Similar to one in League of Legends and Blade and Soul). Make season rewards for it. For example the person who would end up with the highest rank would get a special title/costume/glow anything really. It doesn't have to necessarily affect his stats or make him have a boost in either PvP or PvE. This way, even PvP would have some rewards to it and it might motivate those people who I've mentioned above to actually give it a go.
I'll copy what a friend of mine wrote on EU's forums long time ago:

- balance out matching system, newbies would play with newbies, and pros would play with pros, which means that everyone would be able to win from time to time, opposite to how it is right now, where people are forced to join a person which holds the spot in Arena (other words person who wins the most)
- it would remove a possibility of rejoining to someone, because your opponent would be chosen by the ranking system instead of yourself, people wouldn't be able rejoin (trade), which would remove the possibility to abuse this system for rewards
- added rewards in form of 'seasons' (like in League of Legends for example or BnS) would be given to TOP players, other words people would have to actually play, and play well to receive them - meaning that leeching would not be possible if someone would try to achieve any sort of profit, and thanks to the way that Vindictus combat system works, believe me that there would be no way to create bots that win for this sort of thing (because Vindictus PvP combat actually requires brain and predicting human behaviors, intuition, something that a software can't do... unless you'd have some advanced AI system)

Source: https://forum.nexoneu.com/showthread.php?1553247-Make-seal-trading-in-arena-BANNABLE!&p=7451993&viewfull=1#post7451993

I find it kinda stupid that items obtained from PvP are affecting PvE and visa-versa (that's why I complained about equipment depending previously). That way people who find no interest in PvP wouldn't need to bother with it in the first place, but keep those fashon rewards in PvP so it'd have at least some value to it for those who are only playing for items. I'd only understand keeping the in PvP shop if they were ONLY a PvP luxury.

After all of these things are done, the devs could proceed to balance out the classes and certain mechanics, even though this is the smallest problem out of all. Keep in mind that even if they do all these things, the game could never reach perfect balance and it doesn't have to. Some things will always be more OP than the other things. I'm aware that these things are probably too much for the developers and are most unlikely to happen, but on EU at least, we've had a somewhat big community of PvP players. However, due to Dev's forsakening it most of them left game.

In the end.... Will people still complain? Of course they will. It's usually the same story over and over again. They can't win by spamming attacks they end up complaining how it's "unbalanced". God forbid them accepting that they suck and having to rely on their own skills instead of their stats. I've seen countless examples like these and it's truly sad how delusional and bias a person can be.

Riy45 wrote: »

Drachus wrote: »

Xcut doesn't work? I'll just leave this here https://youtube.com/watch?v=mUIGFm3javo

Holy **** I never knew this.

Basically there are some rules applied in PvP which you need to discover on your own. In this case, cross-cut in PvP only works if you do a smash before going to cross-stance, otherwise it'll fail. If you don't do a smash attack before going to xstance you'll get knocked back, so with that logic the only attacks you'll be able to counter are normal attacks. The bad thing about xcuts in PvP is that they give invulnerability only on the second half of it's animation, meaning that you'll take damage upon impact. Also it's good to use Wind Rider to transform your blade heart into SP which would later allow you to use Sword's will. In this video I had no need to spam Wind Rider because this was an event artifact that gave 2 bars of SP. Swords will will enhance your xcuts a lot and you'll deal quite a lot of damage as you could've seen in the vid.

@MyDelia

MyDelia wrote: »

The most powerful characters in PvP are those with large aoe attacks that can hit outside of dodge range as well as characters with spammable movement/invincibility.

This means characters like Karok, Hurk, and xgun Kai are simply ridiculous in PvP.
If you're playing something else then you better pray.

Okay in this whole text I can agree on only one thing (partially) and that is that Hurk and Karok are ridiculous in PvP. As far as the rest is concerned... What...? Well I must be a rare pokemon because I main a TS vella. Your problem is chasing someone, ever heard of grab? Vella is even a counter for xgun kai imho as we can deflect hollow shots straight to their face. You're a classical example of someone who thinks they're good in PvE so they come to the conclusion that they can do the same thing in PvP and get destroyed and start blaming everything around them instead of getting good. I'm not excluding the fact that Karoks and Hurks are simply ridiculous in PvP as I've said before, but even they can be countered.

MyDelia wrote: »

You don't ever hear a Vella or Delia saying PvP mode is the greatest. It's always some Hurk or some xgun Kai thinking PvP mode is really good.

As I said I'm a TS vella and I think PvP in Vindictus is a great idea but it has been forsaken by the Devs.

MyDelia wrote: »

Cross cut doesn't work, your attacks are really slow by comparison and hit only a really small area, your dodge is not as spammable and doesn't give invincibility the same way Kai's roll or Hurk's impenetrable does. So you literally suck at it.

Xcut doesn't work? I'll just leave this here https://youtube.com/watch?v=mUIGFm3javo

MyDelia wrote: »

The chasing ghosts and shadows thing is already apparent in normal PvP gameplay. Sometimes you'll hit a person but no damage will register. Why? Because on their screen when your attack went in they were in invincibility and/or were nowhere near you. So again, things like Hurk that can spam impenetrable around and not ever really be hit, or xgun Kai that can spam dodge around and hit a huge area with Hollow Shot, they are op. Or hopping Evie. etcetc.

I'm not sure about the first part of this paragraph. I'm not sure if I misunderstood but you're complaining about invulnerability buff? The buff which you get on the 2nd half of your dodge animation after predicting your opponents smash? I'm not sure really, but I've never had those issues with hitboxes that you're mentioning now.

IN CONCLUSION.....
Judging from what you've wrote, it's clear that you have no experience in PvP what so ever. You never bothered to learn it, instead it sounds like you're playing it just like you'd play PvE and then complain how you can't win because system etc. I've noticed that this is quite common in the whole Vindictus community. Not necessarily PvP related, but in general. People like to complain a lot about things that don't go in their favor. Yes I agree that PvP needs more work put into it and that it's quite outdated. But your statements don't prove a single thing.

PS: Also forgot to add, one of the best pvpers on EU is Fearmaster (TS lann with over 16k wins in arena) so just another situation where you're wrong about lann (for example) being weak.

When you actually learn PvP in Vindictus it becomes more appealing. If you play PvP like you'd play PvE you're probably not gonna find any fun in it because you'd be losing most of your matches. But yes, there is a lot to be worked on when it comes to it. The whole idea of it is great, a PvP which is based on you predicting your opponents moves is what makes it interesting, however the execution of it is rather poor.