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Character Skill vs. Reward

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  • AtherionAtherion
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    This thread is a meme
    DeprivedTsiiiTheStatsHeroNoburoCloakshireSamalenko
  • ArxisArxis
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    I normally do not participate and refrain from posting on these forums, but I feel like I may have to pitch in. We should only give our legitimate personal experiences with the characters we're knowledgeable with and actually play, instead of comparing other characters merely based upon rumors of what other people say about their specific character, and what YOU theorize what YOU think determines the said character is harder to play than the other character. Experience is a better teacher than analysis. We only qualify to give the comparisons of the two different characters IF we have the actual proper knowledge and experience beforehand to even begin to compare the two.

    With that being said, for me PERSONALLY, Spear Lann is the hardest in terms of the most difficult character OVERALL to master. I was going to say "OVERALL to play", but I think some people might just correlate "play" with "DPS", which is entirely not the point, just only partially. I say overall, because in order to determine what makes each character more difficult overall than the other are determined by several factors: character vs boss match-up, survivability, optimal combat performance, etc. I'm not saying spear lann is the hardest just because he's my main, and want to make out as if their own character is the hardest just so I can "feel special". I have a good amount of experience with other characters as well. I have several Golden Gods, Glaive Lynn included. She is definitely my second hardest. My plan was to get Golden God for every character, but I lost interest simply due to boredom, not difficulty, even for Twin Sword Vella. So, no Golden God Twin Sword Vella. Few may argue that you can play like a coward in Ein Lach, and that it takes no skill, just patience to get Golden god. Well if that's the case, Spear Lann was and is still the hardest because even though sometimes I did try to play safe, there was some danger to that as well, since you just drag the fight on for a long time. Usually, there are match-ups more heavily favored towards certain characters than others. However for spears, every Ein Lach was a struggle. I got Golden God with spears as a testament to my hard work. I was the only Spear Lann that got Golden God on all spears in the NA and EU region before the +0.13s dodge and 50% Ein Lach boss health reduction, not because I was "good", but as a testament to my hard work ethic. What I'm trying to say is, is that regardless of how difficult your character may be, you can accomplish anything due to a testament of your hard work ethic. Of course, there are characters more easier than others in terms of overall difficulty, but ultimately in the end, it's you, as the player to master your character.

    As you can see, everyone has a different opinion on which character is the hardest. Experience is a better teacher than analysis, and your mileage may vary.
    TheStatsHeroLoyalCasherDrachusQuinqueDeprivedCloakshireJinyie
  • TheDazzlingTheDazzling
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    Arisha is high skill low reward btw o.O this thread is misinformed -_-
    DrachusDeprived
  • TsiiiTsiii
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  • VeneratorVenerator
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    Tsiii
  • sashimisashimi
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    Tsiii
  • clearcutclearcut
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    Arxis wrote: »
    I normally do not participate and refrain from posting on these forums, but I feel like I may have to pitch in. We should only give our legitimate personal experiences with the characters we're knowledgeable with and actually play, instead of comparing other characters merely based upon rumors of what other people say about their specific character, and what YOU theorize what YOU think determines the said character is harder to play than the other character. Experience is a better teacher than analysis. We only qualify to give the comparisons of the two different characters IF we have the actual proper knowledge and experience beforehand to even begin to compare the two.

    With that being said, for me PERSONALLY, Spear Lann is the hardest in terms of the most difficult character OVERALL to master. I was going to say "OVERALL to play", but I think some people might just correlate "play" with "DPS", which is entirely not the point, just only partially. I say overall, because in order to determine what makes each character more difficult overall than the other are determined by several factors: character vs boss match-up, survivability, optimal combat performance, etc. I'm not saying spear lann is the hardest just because he's my main, and want to make out as if their own character is the hardest just so I can "feel special". I have a good amount of experience with other characters as well. I have several Golden Gods, Glaive Lynn included. She is definitely my second hardest. My plan was to get Golden God for every character, but I lost interest simply due to boredom, not difficulty, even for Twin Sword Vella. So, no Golden God Twin Sword Vella. Few may argue that you can play like a coward in Ein Lach, and that it takes no skill, just patience to get Golden god. Well if that's the case, Spear Lann was and is still the hardest because even though sometimes I did try to play safe, there was some danger to that as well, since you just drag the fight on for a long time. Usually, there are match-ups more heavily favored towards certain characters than others. However for spears, every Ein Lach was a struggle. I got Golden God with spears as a testament to my hard work. I was the only Spear Lann that got Golden God on all spears in the NA and EU region before the +0.13s dodge and 50% Ein Lach boss health reduction, not because I was "good", but as a testament to my hard work ethic. What I'm trying to say is, is that regardless of how difficult your character may be, you can accomplish anything due to a testament of your hard work ethic. Of course, there are characters more easier than others in terms of overall difficulty, but ultimately in the end, it's you, as the player to master your character.

    As you can see, everyone has a different opinion on which character is the hardest. Experience is a better teacher than analysis, and your mileage may vary.

    You say that isn't the case, but this just seems like a roundabout way to brag about how great you are. Ein lacher isn't even the only criteria here or else the title would be hardest character to use in Ein. But sure you think Spear Lann is the hardest, and that's fine we are just sharing our opinions here after all.

  • TheStatsHeroTheStatsHero
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    @Atherion

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  • noctrednoctred
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    Deprived wrote: »
    That's a good way to admit you're wrong and don't know what the hell you're talking about, with your "I believe" this and that - you come to this thread and make a long winded post when you're only speculating at that and are unsure of yourself and your claims then you complain when someone responds with a long post like you just made yourself?!

    So that makes you a hypocrite.

    Typical shameless despicable hypocritical troll filth infesting the Vindictus forums.

    For the record, my complaint wasn't that your post was long-winded (I don't mind long-winded posts as a general rule) - but rather that your post was long-winded bullshit, with emphasis on bullshit. :^)

    Also, in reference to the "I believe" comment - I said "I believe" because my characters are either well past or well before that point, so I don't have an exact reference off the top of my head. It's what you might call inductive estimation.

    Lastly -

    Deprived wrote: »
    Translation: I'm too stupid to read more than one sentence in a post and I don't belong in threads where intelligent conversation and debates are going on with mature adults. It's too hard for me guys, someone help me and only say one sentence to me at a time because I'm too slow and my attention span is too short. Also he doesn't want to agree with me so I'm going to just say what he said is bullshit because I'm too stupid to say anything else so I'll just throw in profanity to show how salty and angry I am so people think I'm right. I bet they'll think I'm the one that's right if I get emotional and start spewing profanities! Yeah that'll work!

    The irony in this quote is actually unbelievable. I don't even have to work for it.

    Carry on.
    Quinque
  • DrachusDrachus
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    edited July 2, 2018
    Deprived wrote: »
    LOL please child, you don't know what the hell you're talking about or what this conversation is even about - this isn't about any dps competition or winning or "losing" (as you put it) to other classes fool it's a discussion and comparison between different classes and the skill required to excel with them in the hands of an AVERAGE player with AVERAGE day to day gear a casual or new player would have like free level 90 gear as far as I'm concerned.

    Considering how little information was given in the original post, seems like everyone is having their own subjective point of view on every class. The criteria is completely unknown for the ranking. My original interpretation of the post was how much skill it requires to achieve the "DPS ceiling" of the class. If we take into consideration how an AVERAGE player with AVERAGE gear preforms with a specific class that changes things drastically from my original thought. I probably will sound like an elitist now but... The only reason why you'd ever want to make a ranking for [DPS:Skill] based on a perspective of an average player would be for the attraction of newbies. Not saying that it's wrong to have that idea, but I simply find it misleading. The average players of every class are satisfied with doing the bare minimum of what a class offers, as long as it works well for them.
    Deprived wrote: »
    And please dude, keep your he said she said rumors to yourself, I don't care what your supposed top 10 hurk friends said about spear lann's difficulty. Those same hurks are playing on one of the easiest most braindead classes in the game, they know nothing about class skill difficulties and the fact that they've put so much money into a Hurk that they're top 10 rank reinforces my point even more.

    To the first part I agree that the original statement that the dude made was quite bs and using a completely uncorrelated evidence to back up his statement. But is Hurk really braindead? I mean by your criteria using an average player with average gear as an example. You're completely right. He is super easy and simple for new players. But at the end game it kinda changes things. If we assume that Hurk is so easy, then why are there only 3 good Hurks on EU? And one of them (He doesn't want his name on forum so he told me not to mention him here) figured out a completely different DPS pattern compared to other Hurks which gives him around 25% more DPS than the others. It involves animation canceling and really precise timing (And no I don't mean using LMB to cancel the dodge). The point which I am trying to make here is that every class has it's high skill ceiling.

    To sum it all up if you'd want to make these sort of lists/graphs/tables you'd need to make a couple of them. You'd also need a large sample size to conduct your research. Without saying it goes that going to include a lot of work and I personally think that it's pointless - just like this entire thread and all of the statements that are made here are entirely subjective.
    QuinqueTheStatsHero
  • DeprivedDeprived
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    @Arxis - Well said. Spear Lann is clearly one of the hardest to play in the game for reasons like what you've explained in your post and the fact that people are trying to argue that fact is laughable. Thank you for going into detail about why that is, I just don't care to go into such in depth detail about a difficult class that others in this thread probably don't even play and don't have anywhere near the amount of experience I do with him but you've helped a lot to do that and open people's eyes.

    No I'm not saying everyone in the thread doesn't play spear lann, of course not but those of you who have very little experience with spear lann and are only speaking on what you see or hear mostly know who you are and it's quite obvious who those are in this thread, I'm not going to name any names, just please don't talk about what you don't really know anything about. Nothing wrong with admitting you don't know everything about a certain topic or individual class in Vindictus but it's obvious when you're trying to act like you know about something when you really don't.

    @TheDazzling - You're exactly right, Arisha is also high skill difficulty with not too much reward for it.

    @noctred - Call it what you want but the fact still remains you aren't even sure of what the hell you're talking about, I don't care for your "estimations" honestly, the point is you're unsure of yourself and what you're saying, I'm not going to waste my time to consider the opinion of someone who doesn't even know if what they're saying is 100% true or not. Keep the speculations and guesses to yourself or give it to someone else, not me. And you may say that translation is wrong denial is the first step to recovery my friend - when I was in middle school and not very smart like yourself I would resort to spewing profanities to try and make people think I'm right (oh that's bullshit! i'm right because I threw in a bad word to show how right I am!) when I couldn't think of anything smart to say or respond with too, it's okay.

    Also I won't be reading or responding to any of your posts from now on due to the points I've made above, like you not even being sure what you're saying yourself is 100% fact or not, your "estimations" and speculative "beliefs" are a waste of my time.

    @Drachus - I agree. At the end of the day this is just a lot of subjective opinions about which class is hard because one person is saying "well oh that class isn't so hard now because you have access to gear to give you 18k defense" well of course, NO CLASS is very difficult at all with that amount of defense at that point with the current content for the majority of raids and battles, that's a no brainer, it doesn't get any more obvious, that's why I'm not using that as the environment to compare skill difficulty. And then we have others like myself trying to get away from that nonsense and simply see how someone on their first day would fare against an average level 90 raid with average gear then we can make those graphs and tables to measure things like survivability, how long each new player is able to survive with each individual class on average, character vs boss matchup like this gentleman Arxis mentioned and many other factors.

    Hurk for the most part is a pretty braindead class because you're mostly spamming shift + right click and bashing into the boss, just forcing yourself on it with not too much to worry about as long as you're aware of the couple of things that could hinder you from doing that. It's not a very technical class basically, it's a pretty linear simple character to understand and pick up so for the most part he's pretty low skill difficulty. Your friend that has found a way to play him differently may be an exception though if he isn't just shift + right click spamming 99% of the time like 99% of hurks do sure but overall hurk is still a very low skill difficulty character. Respect to your friend for mastering the character and figuring out a way to deal that 25% extra damage over others. But see you end your statements about your friend with "why are there only 3 good hurks on EU" - and a statement like that is entirely subjective. Good to you may not be good to the next player, maybe you have pretty low standards to that hardcore hurk that no one even knows about that has been playing the game 12 hours a day since the class was released, maybe there are other good hurks that you've never met, maybe there are hurks out there that are actually better than your top 3 hurk list but they just don't have that amazing gear to match their skill which those top 3 hurks of yours probably do have. When I'm looking at who is truly a good player and the top 5 or top 10 or whatever, each of those players had better have EXACTLY the same gear, stats and everything before anything which is almost never the case 99.9% of the time. So there isn't a balance there most of the time and it's easy to think "oh this is the best Hurk, he has 90% DPS in raids, he's better than everyone" and 9 times out of 10 it's mostly because of gear and major differences in stats making people think this player is better than the next one and is just better than everyone out there when that's really not the case. As men we can be very narrow minded, very direct and we love to think with numbers first over everything but we have to deviate from that in cases like this and consider every single variable which a lot of people just don't care to do because that's the harder way to do it but it's the right and fair way - just because this and that Hurk is putting up big numbers in a battle doesn't mean he's good and that there are only 3 good hurks in the entire EU server, that's just foolish to think that honestly, if you are which I have a feeling is the case.

    And to be clear Drachus, in case you thought it was me, I'm not the one that was bringing DPS into this, that was some other user in this thread, just another brainwashed kid that cares about nothing but DPS and thinks DPS = skill when that couldn't be any farther from the truth. Because in Vindictus, DPS = who has the biggest wallet, who is able to swipe their credit card the most about 95% of the time. It's sad but that's the current state of the game. So DPS is one of the last things on the list that I would be taking into consideration when determining individual class skill difficulties, I don't think I would even use DPS as a factor to determine skill difficulty because you have classes like glaive lynn for example that are definitely up there in skill difficulty but she is very underpowered and won't dish out top DPS numbers even though she's one of those working the hardest to deal damage on a team. I've had several situations where I was in a raid with a Glaive Lynn, we're both very good at the battle, we have similar levels of experience in the game and with the current boss, she is obviously putting in as much effort as I am if not more to perform well and their gear is much better than mine yet I'm outdpsing them and I know it's because Glaive Lynn is underpowered. So it's for reasons like this that DPS isn't even on my radar at all when determining what class is more difficult over the other.

    And you're right, many of the statements in this thread are entirely subjective.

    But is this entire thread pointless? I think not. There may be no point of discussing these things to you but for others there is a point to doing it, you just aren't seeing it and you aren't looking at it from enough points of view that's all, that doesn't make the existence of this thread and statements here pointless.
  • LoyalCasherLoyalCasher
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    edited July 2, 2018
    Deprived wrote: »
    @Arxis - Well said. Spear Lann is clearly one of the hardest to play in the game for reasons like what you've explained in your post and the fact that people are trying to argue that fact is laughable. Thank you for going into detail about why that is, I just don't care to go into such in depth detail about a difficult class that others in this thread probably don't even play and don't have anywhere near the amount of experience I do with him but you've helped a lot to do that and open people's eyes.

    No I'm not saying everyone in the thread doesn't play spear lann, of course not but those of you who have very little experience with spear lann and are only speaking on what you see or hear mostly know who you are and it's quite obvious who those are in this thread, I'm not going to name any names, just please don't talk about what you don't really know anything about. Nothing wrong with admitting you don't know everything about a certain topic or individual class in Vindictus but it's obvious when you're trying to act like you know about something when you really don't.

    @TheDazzling - You're exactly right, Arisha is also high skill difficulty with not too much reward for it.

    @noctred - Call it what you want but the fact still remains you aren't even sure of what the hell you're talking about, I don't care for your "estimations" honestly, the point is you're unsure of yourself and what you're saying, I'm not going to waste my time to consider the opinion of someone who doesn't even know if what they're saying is 100% true or not. Keep the speculations and guesses to yourself or give it to someone else, not me. And you may say that translation is wrong denial is the first step to recovery my friend - when I was in middle school and not very smart like yourself I would resort to spewing profanities to try and make people think I'm right (oh that's bullshit! i'm right because I threw in a bad word to show how right I am!) when I couldn't think of anything smart to say or respond with too, it's okay.

    Also I won't be reading or responding to any of your posts from now on due to the points I've made above, like you not even being sure what you're saying yourself is 100% fact or not, your "estimations" and speculative "beliefs" are a waste of my time.

    @Drachus - I agree. At the end of the day this is just a lot of subjective opinions about which class is hard because one person is saying "well oh that class isn't so hard now because you have access to gear to give you 18k defense" well of course, NO CLASS is very difficult at all with that amount of defense at that point with the current content for the majority of raids and battles, that's a no brainer, it doesn't get any more obvious, that's why I'm not using that as the environment to compare skill difficulty. And then we have others like myself trying to get away from that nonsense and simply see how someone on their first day would fare against an average level 90 raid with average gear then we can make those graphs and tables to measure things like survivability, how long each new player is able to survive with each individual class on average, character vs boss matchup like this gentleman Arxis mentioned and many other factors.

    Hurk for the most part is a pretty braindead class because you're mostly spamming shift + right click and bashing into the boss, just forcing yourself on it with not too much to worry about as long as you're aware of the couple of things that could hinder you from doing that. It's not a very technical class basically, it's a pretty linear simple character to understand and pick up so for the most part he's pretty low skill difficulty. Your friend that has found a way to play him differently may be an exception though if he isn't just shift + right click spamming 99% of the time like 99% of hurks do sure but overall hurk is still a very low skill difficulty character. Respect to your friend for mastering the character and figuring out a way to deal that 25% extra damage over others. But see you end your statements about your friend with "why are there only 3 good hurks on EU" - and a statement like that is entirely subjective. Good to you may not be good to the next player, maybe you have pretty low standards to that hardcore hurk that no one even knows about that has been playing the game 12 hours a day since the class was released, maybe there are other good hurks that you've never met, maybe there are hurks out there that are actually better than your top 3 hurk list but they just don't have that amazing gear to match their skill which those top 3 hurks of yours probably do have. When I'm looking at who is truly a good player and the top 5 or top 10 or whatever, each of those players had better have EXACTLY the same gear, stats and everything before anything which is almost never the case 99.9% of the time. So there isn't a balance there most of the time and it's easy to think "oh this is the best Hurk, he has 90% DPS in raids, he's better than everyone" and 9 times out of 10 it's mostly because of gear and major differences in stats making people think this player is better than the next one and is just better than everyone out there when that's really not the case. As men we can be very narrow minded, very direct and we love to think with numbers first over everything but we have to deviate from that in cases like this and consider every single variable which a lot of people just don't care to do because that's the harder way to do it but it's the right and fair way - just because this and that Hurk is putting up big numbers in a battle doesn't mean he's good and that there are only 3 good hurks in the entire EU server, that's just foolish to think that honestly, if you are which I have a feeling is the case.

    And to be clear Drachus, in case you thought it was me, I'm not the one that was bringing DPS into this, that was some other user in this thread, just another brainwashed kid that cares about nothing but DPS and thinks DPS = skill when that couldn't be any farther from the truth. Because in Vindictus, DPS = who has the biggest wallet, who is able to swipe their credit card the most about 95% of the time. It's sad but that's the current state of the game. So DPS is one of the last things on the list that I would be taking into consideration when determining individual class skill difficulties, I don't think I would even use DPS as a factor to determine skill difficulty because you have classes like glaive lynn for example that are definitely up there in skill difficulty but she is very underpowered and won't dish out top DPS numbers even though she's one of those working the hardest to deal damage on a team. I've had several situations where I was in a raid with a Glaive Lynn, we're both very good at the battle, we have similar levels of experience in the game and with the current boss, she is obviously putting in as much effort as I am if not more to perform well and their gear is much better than mine yet I'm outdpsing them and I know it's because Glaive Lynn is underpowered. So it's for reasons like this that DPS isn't even on my radar at all when determining what class is more difficult over the other.

    And you're right, many of the statements in this thread are entirely subjective.

    But is this entire thread pointless? I think not. There may be no point of discussing these things to you but for others there is a point to doing it, you just aren't seeing it and you aren't looking at it from enough points of view that's all, that doesn't make the existence of this thread and statements here pointless.

    Well said. Hurk is clearly one of the hardest to play in the game for reasons like what you've explained in your post and the fact that people are trying to argue that fact is laughable. Thank you for going into detail about why that is, I just don't care to go into such in depth detail about a difficult class that others in this thread probably don't even play and don't have anywhere near the amount of experience I do with him but you've helped a lot to do that and open people's eyes.

    I'm not saying everyone in the thread doesn't play Hurk, of course not but those of you who have very little experience with Hurk and are only speaking on what you see or hear mostly know who you are and it's quite obvious who those are in this thread, I'm not going to name any names, just please don't talk about what you don't really know anything about. Nothing wrong with admitting you don't know everything about a certain topic or individual class in Vindictus but it's obvious when you're trying to act like you know about something when you really don't.

    Glaive Lynn is also high skill difficulty with not too much reward for it.

    Call it what you want but the fact still remains you aren't even sure of what the hell you're talking about, I don't care for your "estimations" honestly, the point is you're unsure of yourself and what you're saying, I'm not going to waste my time to consider the opinion of someone who doesn't even know if what they're saying is 100% true or not. Keep the speculations and guesses to yourself or give it to someone else, not me. And you may say that translation is wrong denial is the first step to recovery my friend - when I was in middle school and not very smart like yourself I would resort to spewing profanities to try and make people think I'm right (oh that's bullshit! i'm right because I threw in a bad word to show how right I am!) when I couldn't think of anything smart to say or respond with too, it's okay.

    Also I won't be reading or responding to any of your posts from now on due to the points I've made above, like you not even being sure what you're saying yourself is 100% fact or not, your "estimations" and speculative "beliefs" are a waste of my time.

    At the end of the day this is just a lot of subjective opinions about which class is hard because one person is saying "well oh that class isn't so hard now because you have access to gear to give you 18k defense" well of course, NO CLASS is very difficult at all with that amount of defense at that point with the current content for the majority of raids and battles, that's a no brainer, it doesn't get any more obvious, that's why I'm not using that as the environment to compare skill difficulty. And then we have others like myself trying to get away from that nonsense and simply see how someone on their first day would fare against an average level 90 raid with average gear then we can make those graphs and tables to measure things like survivability, how long each new player is able to survive with each individual class on average, character vs boss matchup like this gentleman Arxis mentioned and many other factors.

    Spear Lann for the most part is a pretty braindead class because you're mostly spamming shift + right click and bashing into the boss, just forcing yourself on it with not too much to worry about as long as you're aware of the couple of things that could hinder you from doing that. It's not a very technical class basically, it's a pretty linear simple character to understand and pick up so for the most part he's pretty low skill difficulty. Your friend that has found a way to play him differently may be an exception though if he isn't just shift + right click spamming 99% of the time like 99% of Spear Lanns do sure but overall Spear Lann is still a very low skill difficulty character. Respect to your friend for mastering the character and figuring out a way to deal that 25% extra damage over others. But see you end your statements about your friend with "why are there only 3 good Spear Lanns on EU" - and a statement like that is entirely subjective. Good to you may not be good to the next player, maybe you have pretty low standards to that hardcore Spear Lann that no one even knows about that has been playing the game 12 hours a day since the class was released, maybe there are other good Spear Lanns that you've never met, maybe there are Spear Lanns out there that are actually better than your top 3 Spear Lann list but they just don't have that amazing gear to match their skill which those top 3 Spear Lanns of yours probably do have. When I'm looking at who is truly a good player and the top 5 or top 10 or whatever, each of those players had better have EXACTLY the same gear, stats and everything before anything which is almost never the case 99.9% of the time. So there isn't a balance there most of the time and it's easy to think "oh this is the best Spear Lann, he has 90% DPS in raids, he's better than everyone" and 9 times out of 10 it's mostly because of gear and major differences in stats making people think this player is better than the next one and is just better than everyone out there when that's really not the case. As men we can be very narrow minded, very direct and we love to think with numbers first over everything but we have to deviate from that in cases like this and consider every single variable which a lot of people just don't care to do because that's the harder way to do it but it's the right and fair way - just because this and that Spear Lann is putting up big numbers in a battle doesn't mean he's good and that there are only 3 good Spear Lann in the entire EU server, that's just foolish to think that honestly, if you are which I have a feeling is the case.

    I'm not the one that was bringing DPS into this, that was some other user in this thread, just another brainwashed kid that cares about nothing but DPS and thinks DPS = skill when that couldn't be any farther from the truth. Because in Vindictus, DPS = who has the biggest wallet, who is able to swipe their credit card the most about 95% of the time. It's sad but that's the current state of the game. So DPS is one of the last things on the list that I would be taking into consideration when determining individual class skill difficulties, I don't think I would even use DPS as a factor to determine skill difficulty because you have classes like hurk for example that are definitely up there in skill difficulty but he is very underpowered and won't dish out top DPS numbers even though he's one of those working the hardest to deal damage on a team. I've had several situations where I was in a raid with a hurk, we're both very good at the battle, we have similar levels of experience in the game and with the current boss, he is obviously putting in as much effort as I am if not more to perform well and their gear is much better than mine yet I'm outdpsing them and I know it's because hurk is underpowered. So it's for reasons like this that DPS isn't even on my radar at all when determining what class is more difficult over the other.

    And you're right, many of the statements in this thread are entirely subjective.

    But is this entire thread pointless? I think not. There may be no point of discussing these things to you but for others there is a point to doing it, you just aren't seeing it and you aren't looking at it from enough points of view that's all, that doesn't make the existence of this thread and statements here pointless.
  • TheDazzlingTheDazzling
    Vindictus Rep: 3,295
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    Holy crap and i thought i was annoying o.o y’all typing way too much

    Can’t we all just agree that Arisha is weakest DPS and also the character that requires more skill out of everyone? Like.. its so obvious idk how people don’t realize it.
  • DeprivedDeprived
    Vindictus Rep: 990
    Posts: 68
    Member
    edited July 2, 2018
    Holy crap and i thought i was annoying o.o y’all typing way too much

    Can’t we all just agree that Arisha is weakest DPS and also the character that requires more skill out of everyone? Like.. its so obvious idk how people don’t realize it.

    Arisha + Spear Lann definitely deserve to be in high skill requirement brackets and I think as far as Spear Lann goes enough points have been made to explain that somewhat. They are both very technical and difficult classes in their own right, Glaive Lynn being fairly difficult as well with low rewards which sucks but just the way it is.

    I'm done with that conversation.
  • _Kale_Kale
    Vindictus Rep: 1,310
    Posts: 34
    Member
    edited July 2, 2018
    Deprived wrote: »
    But I know everyone wants to give their opinion and feel important no matter how useless it is, I understand, you just want a little attention even if you make yourself look stupid in the process, whatever it takes to get a little attention in your lonely life right? It's okay, I know.
    [...]
    LOL please child, you don't know what the hell you're talking about or what this conversation is even about
    [...]
    You sound like a girl that knows nothing about sports but wants to jump into a sports debate and tell everyone what's what and act like they know everything about it and act like they're smarter than everyone to stroke their own ego or fit in or something.
    Your arguments might be better received if you presented them without the intent to offend.

    Deprived wrote: »
    @TheDazzling - You're exactly right, Arisha is also high skill difficulty with not too much reward for it.
    Arisha is pretty clearly a high reward character. I don't think even Dazz himself expects anyone to take him seriously. His comment was tongue in cheek.


    More on topic - it's disappointing how terrible these threads are, and it's understandable that people respond with "oh look it's this thread again" or silly comments about salt. But I think that's unfortunate because it's a worthwhile discussion to have. It's especially disappointing when some of the silly comments come from players with the most to contribute to this discussion.

    I've leveled every class and almost every weapon to 95. I've soloed neam and earned golden god on several. But I still think I'm far from having a complete grasp of character balance in the game. Our impressions are limited by our own experiences. In some cases, there were specific players like Karic and Chalant who completely changed the opinions I had about their classes up until I raided with them. I'd really like to hear from players like them who might have different experiences from my own, and I don't think that kind of discussion should be discouraged.

    Aside from people talking out of their asses, I think the reason these threads fail is that the analyses and comparisons are just too shallow. How do you define reward? Is it dps? How do you define skill? Is it the skill floor to stay alive and contribute? Is it the skill ceiling to maximize dps? Are you considering both solo and party play? What range of attack speed are you comparing? Are you talking about agile bosses or slow bosses? Large bosses or small? There's no way to begin actual discussions of character balance without considering these things. Miri is still by far the most op class (20% damage nerf when?) and I would put her in her own damage potential/"reward" category, but I wouldn't say she's unequivocally the most op class in every circumstance. There's always room for discussion.

    That said, maybe the forums just aren't a good place for a discussion like this. The vindi subreddit lacks the userbase of the discord servers. Discord lacks the organized structure (comment chaining) of sites like reddit. And naturally the forums lack both.
    noctredTheStatsHero
  • TheDazzlingTheDazzling
    Vindictus Rep: 3,295
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    Member
    Trust me... people do take me serious no matter what I say.

    @_Kale
  • CedricCedric
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    Ferghus the hardest character to play.
    Deprived
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
    Vindictus Rep: 1,475
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    It actually seems quite fair lool , tho I would put hammer on the high reward category , and LS for the only superior spot above all other chars.

    From a solo play perspective.
  • DeprivedDeprived
    Vindictus Rep: 990
    Posts: 68
    Member
    edited July 3, 2018
    _Kale wrote: »
    Deprived wrote: »
    @TheDazzling - You're exactly right, Arisha is also high skill difficulty with not too much reward for it.
    Arisha is pretty clearly a high reward character. I don't think even Dazz himself expects anyone to take him seriously. His comment was tongue in cheek.

    And Arisha being high reward according to you is simply your opinion, that's not a fact.

    I say she is fairly low to medium reward.

    As has been said multiple times now, the thread is just nothing but subjective statements being thrown at one another, like everything in your post, those are all your opinions and nothing more.

  • clearcutclearcut
    Vindictus Rep: 1,150
    Posts: 29
    Member
    edited July 3, 2018
    _Kale wrote: »
    Deprived wrote: »
    But I know everyone wants to give their opinion and feel important no matter how useless it is, I understand, you just want a little attention even if you make yourself look stupid in the process, whatever it takes to get a little attention in your lonely life right? It's okay, I know.
    [...]
    LOL please child, you don't know what the hell you're talking about or what this conversation is even about
    [...]
    You sound like a girl that knows nothing about sports but wants to jump into a sports debate and tell everyone what's what and act like they know everything about it and act like they're smarter than everyone to stroke their own ego or fit in or something.
    Your arguments might be better received if you presented them without the intent to offend.

    Deprived wrote: »
    @TheDazzling - You're exactly right, Arisha is also high skill difficulty with not too much reward for it.
    Arisha is pretty clearly a high reward character. I don't think even Dazz himself expects anyone to take him seriously. His comment was tongue in cheek.


    More on topic - it's disappointing how terrible these threads are, and it's understandable that people respond with "oh look it's this thread again" or silly comments about salt. But I think that's unfortunate because it's a worthwhile discussion to have. It's especially disappointing when some of the silly comments come from players with the most to contribute to this discussion.

    I've leveled every class and almost every weapon to 95. I've soloed neam and earned golden god on several. But I still think I'm far from having a complete grasp of character balance in the game. Our impressions are limited by our own experiences. In some cases, there were specific players like Karic and Chalant who completely changed the opinions I had about their classes up until I raided with them. I'd really like to hear from players like them who might have different experiences from my own, and I don't think that kind of discussion should be discouraged.

    Aside from people talking out of their asses, I think the reason these threads fail is that the analyses and comparisons are just too shallow. How do you define reward? Is it dps? How do you define skill? Is it the skill floor to stay alive and contribute? Is it the skill ceiling to maximize dps? Are you considering both solo and party play? What range of attack speed are you comparing? Are you talking about agile bosses or slow bosses? Large bosses or small? There's no way to begin actual discussions of character balance without considering these things. Miri is still by far the most op class (20% damage nerf when?) and I would put her in her own damage potential/"reward" category, but I wouldn't say she's unequivocally the most op class in every circumstance. There's always room for discussion.

    That said, maybe the forums just aren't a good place for a discussion like this. The vindi subreddit lacks the userbase of the discord servers. Discord lacks the organized structure (comment chaining) of sites like reddit. And naturally the forums lack both.

    Agreed, It is a shame half the people that reply are either trolls or contribute nothing to the discussion, sometimes both. The tables I made is based on characters I've tried and people I've seen preform effectively. The reason I left the reasoning ambiguous was to encourage discussion, and also the fact that its just too difficult and time consuming to consider each and every aspect of stage/solo/skill/survival etc.

    Skill in my case was how easy the character is to use as well as the amount of effort it takes to do certain amount of damage (low/medium/high reward) in an average raid (Neamhain, S3). So a character like Scythe Evie is easy to use, fairly straightforward and doesn't require much effort to do dps (generally medium) in an average raid. While a character like SS Arisha requires more understanding, and effort but also deals more dps (generally high) in an average raid. Effort again is ambiguous but I'm not really sure how else to explain it besides my own experiences.

    Like another person mentioned you'd need a lot more data to arrive at an objective answer, for now these are just our collective thoughts. But I was hoping we could discuss it and perhaps arrive at a conclusion or at least some greater insight. Interesting you mention Chalant I have seen them play before, but never heard of Karic.
    Samalenko wrote: »
    It actually seems quite fair lool , tho I would put hammer on the high reward category , and LS for the only superior spot above all other chars.

    From a solo play perspective.

    Now that you mention it, it does look like a solo table, if Miri was grouped with the rest in middle, LS was the queen on top and some other slight changes. (Karok?)