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Well, if the game's perspective matters at all. Fiona, Evie, Kai, Delia, and Miri are all labeled as "Easy" on character creation, while Lynn and Arisha are the only ones labeled as "Hard". The other characters do not have these labels so they can be considered medium. Of course, these labels do not have detailed explanations, nor does it distinguish between weapon types.
Well, if the game's perspective matters at all. Fiona, Evie, Kai, Delia, and Miri are all labeled as "Easy" on character creation, while Lynn and Arisha are the only ones labeled as "Hard". The other characters do not have these labels so they can be considered medium. Of course, these labels do not have detailed explanations, nor does it distinguish between weapon types.
No, you can't just assume the other characters are just considered medium difficulty pulling that out of thin air like that, just because character creation didn't give them a label.
You can't tell me that Arisha is just a medium difficulty class to play - that along with spear lann are two of the most advanced classes in this game that require extremely high game IQ, much more knowledge of the game mechanics and fundamentals to perform even decently with (not including players that just stack defense and become tanks).
Crossgun kai is without a doubt easier to play than spear lann and spear lann is one of the most difficult classes in the game to play especially if you aren't just stacking defense.
Crossgun kai has almost the best dodge in the game and should be in the low skill bracket.
As a long time Spear Lann main, I do appreciate the hype you're giving spears but nowadays that's just not true anymore. Back before the ignition update when spear Lann had no iframes, I would have whole heartedly agreed with you. Even after he was given a minor 0.3 second iframe in his roll (Season 2), I would still agree with you. However, spear lann has received too many adjustments that knocked him out of the high skill bracket.
These include
Spear Dash being uprgadeable totaling in a 0.77 sec invul time. (Possibly to be upgraded even further in a future patch).
The removal of Belcaire's increase recieved damage/ignore defense downside. (20% free damage with no downside now).
The fact that your invincible during lightning fury + the entire recovery animation. (Glide spamming creates a lot of invincibility time).
The HP lost from Fury Infusion can now be naturally recovered. (99.9% recovered totaling only a 1hp loss per use).
The increased speed of his recovery time after a glide. (You can dodge or do Tail Piercing instantly after a glide now).
All these combined take Lann from being "one of the most difficult classes to play," down to the mid tier in terms of skill. Gone are the days when you had to take a page from RaidHunter's book to be good. I'm not saying he's easy, but he's definitely not the hardest to play anymore.
Just tossing out a random idea here but something I would recommend to return Lann's high risk high reward gameplay would be to adjust belclaire. Instead of 20% more damage with no drawback, make it 50% more damage & the downsides would be that you take double damage plus 40% of your def is ignored. (This wouldn't apply to a red hit aka unblockable attack though). This would cut down on a person's ability to def stack their way through bosses. Either do low damage safely or do high damage with a high risk. If this were done, a spear lann doing a lot of damage without dying would once again be the mark of a skilled player. The numbers aren't to be taken literally, but rather to illustrate the concept of using Belclaire to return spear lann to the low survivability + high dps.
I do agree that xgun kai is waaaay easier than spear lann though. I also agree that he should be in the low or mid low skill bracket, but I cannot say for sure as I have never played kai.
Lastly, was that a Ben Shapiro quote? If so, nice!
I will just say this, a lot of people will just say Kai is ezmode just cuz he shoots from a distince/only have to left click true but the whole truth, he may not have the same problems has lann but doesn't mean he doesn't have his own problems but people don't focus on that only what suits there point what there trying to drive.
Besides if your shooting with gun at a distince your playing Crossgun wrong
@Tariro First of all, you clearly didn't read my post the way you're complaining that it's "long winded" and the fact that you're the only one complaining about that increases that likelihood. If your attention span is too short to read a paragraph or two then you should just stay away from intelligent conversation going on on the internet, the smart adults are speaking now, go play on a meme website or something where people think being stupid is cool which seems to be the group you belong to.
And secondly, while I haven't been playing since I heard about Nexon being sued for their gachas, I was playing just a few months ago so no, my information is not "outdated by 1 or 2 years", take your lies elsewhere. You probably just skimmed my previous post and saw I was talking about how lann used to be and what kind of a class he was designed to be and you went off of that alone like a fool.
If reading is too hard for you bro just say it, not everyone can be smart and not everyone knows how to read, we have to have the stupid ones like yourself that cry about posts being too long because they have the attention span of a goldfish to keep the balance you know, I understand, it's okay. Or you're one of those kids that say "TL;DR" because they think it's cool to be stupid and not read things, I know, you want to fit in with the other stupid people in your generation, you want to look cool by being stupid too, I get it. Thanks for pointing out your stupidity though, it saves me from wasting my time reading any more of your spam posts in the future.
@Cloakshire I agree with you brother about spear lann being closer to medium skill difficulty now. But I still wouldn't place him in that bracket, he's still in high skill difficulty and I'll explain why.
You made some good points to support your claim that lann is easier to play and while I do agree that these skills make it EASIER to play lann, I still would not put him in the just medium difficulty group of classes.
Now keep in mind, I'm looking at it from the perspective of having each class stripped naked, no armor, no accessories, OR just the plain level 90 free gear set. This way we eliminate all the extra armor and defense and whatnot that people are able to use as a crutch to stay alive with rather than relying on skill or you're dead. And this way each class will be on an even playing field.
And I get the feeling a lot of those posting here are thinking with the mindset of someone already experienced in the game and has prior knowledge of boss mechanics. Naturally it wouldn't be as hard to use spear lann then because you know what to expect from the boss, you have the wisdom and game experience on your side. But that's not the point of view we should be looking at it from because that's just going to skew the results - we need to see how difficult it would be for a new player to pick up each class and excel with him or...at least survive right? You aren't going to do very well if you're constantly dying.
If you compare each of the classes this way and a new player to the game tries out spear lann with not much knowledge of boss attack patterns or mechanics, not much knowledge of the game fundamentals, and he just has basic free level 90 gear, spear lann will without a doubt be one of the most difficult classes to get a hang of and play well with compared to most of the other classes in the game. Spear Lann will be one of the first to fall, if not the first one and that spear lann will be dying constantly on a typical level 90 raid.
Obviously spear lann's survivability has been increased somewhat since he was first released but he still has one of the lowest survivability rates of any other class in the game, that fact still remains. He is still one of the most dangerous classes to play and if you haven't fought that boss a ton of times you will not perform very well at all and you will die A LOT, moreso than most other classes.
Nice talking to a fellow spear lann main And you even know about RaidHunter too!
As a former "glass cannon" lann, i can understand whole heartedly how some of you feel regarding the class... The simple fact is though, Nexon made this play style obsolete.
Spear lann has seen many changes over the years, and while i find myself nostalgic everyday over the glory days of 1hp play, mechanics and items have made this no longer an option. Optimal gearing gives you over 17/18k defense without trying.
The second thing ill point out is probably the biggest. The need for spear lann to be skillful was due to a massive character function using fury infusion. A simple right click begote EVERY combo would slowly nuke your health. Add in 0 invulnerable frame, and you definitely have a case for needing skill over any other requirement to play this class effectively.
Nexon has made spear lann into what he is now, a face tanking right click holder. Im sorry to say it, because i truly was a believer and passionate player of the 1hp, light armor spear lann.
Optimal gearing gives you over 17/18k defense without trying.
Nexon has made spear lann into what he is now, a face tanking right click holder. Im sorry to say it, because i truly was a believer and passionate player of the 1hp, light armor spear lann.
Okay I clearly said that I'm talking about comparing each class side by side WITHOUT just wearing a bunch of great gear that's enchanted or stacking defense to become a tank so you either didn't read what I said or you're just skimming posts and vomiting out irrelevant information.
Why would you even include people that are just stacking defense to have 17/18k defense to cheese everything in the game and make everything a cakewalk in this? And you're exaggerating when you said you can get 17/18k defense without trying, that's simply false because if that were the case everyone or most players would be walking around with 17/18k defense.
Literally your only argument is that "oh this class doesn't require any skill if you just stack defense to get 17/18k defense and become A TANK" well no s hit sherlock, that makes EVERY class easy to play and require no skill...
OBVIOUSLY if someone is stacking defense wearing a bunch of defense boosting gear to reach that amount of 17/18k DEF you can face tank most things in the game and it throws any skill requirements of the class out the window for ANY class and that's exactly why I said the classes must be compared as if they had no armor/accessories on or just basic free level 90 gear on to have a proper controlled environment to compare the actual skill difficulty of the classes.
And spear lann will be one of the most difficult to excel with or even survive with under those circumstances.
There is no way in hell you can just be a "face tanking right click holder" on a spear lann with basic free level 90 gear or wearing average gear you see on your every day casual player that isn't just stacking defense. You will die in seconds.
Now if you're a whale and you're intentionally building your gear so that you have as much defense as possible so you don't or rarely die and you don't need to have any actual skill that doesn't mean the class requires little skill it just means you're whaling and you made your class into a tank and that's why you're able to facetank, not because the class has all of a sudden become a facetank class.
Please dude, you're really sounding like an elitist and that's the last thing we need in this conversation comparing skill requirements of each class. Maybe you can get 17/18k defense easily "without trying" as you put it but many or maybe even most players can't. Gear has nothing to do with base skill requirements of an individual class.
If your goal isnt the best gear with enchants and enhancement then what is it....?
If you want to compare all classes evenly, why does it need to be at minimum level instead of maximum?
The elitist label is fine with me. You can use your view point and current gear status to back up your opinion but it doesnt make it truth. Dullahan armor and weapon gives you that defense, which with the current meta, is optimal geared. You seem to insinuate that a whale is someone with good gear, when good gear is EVERYONES goal. Aside from the fashion enthusiasts.
If you REALLY want to compare classes by using the garbage gear as your argument, spear lann still doesnt win in challenge.
And no, i didnt read all of your wall of text posts except the one directed at me.
Edit: i wont check this again as to not be riled up and in an argument. I do not think your opinion will be swayed. I might have gear, but ive been here since beta and its no reason to put someone down or claim superior skill. Your argument is very self focused and that is not helping either.
If you DO want some help or to vent and discuss things im totally free for that in game. I have a special place in my heart for spear lann but hes not what he used to be.
Why would you even include people that are just stacking defense to have 17/18k defense to cheese everything in the game and make everything a cakewalk in this? And you're exaggerating when you said you can get 17/18k defense without trying, that's simply false because if that were the case everyone or most players would be walking around with 17/18k defense.
17-18k isn't "stacking" defense. I believe a set of +12 dully armor with mediocre essence rolls, passions on your accessories, a pair of fine emeralds, and a few midrange scrolls will net you right around around 17k, which is well within reach of the average player if they put in the effort. Somebody stacking defense would probably be well over 20k.
I'd say 17k is about average these days for players who have moved past the freebie 90 gear. No whaling required.
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Your argument is generally flawed tbh.
Stripping characters naked does not place them on equal ground. If anything, it pushes them further apart as some characters require certain stat levels to even become baseline functional in the current boss meta. I'd say a better way to look at the characters would be to give each of them the gear required to perform optimally in the context of current content and then let players of varying skill and experience levels pilot the characters to determine skill floors and ceilings on a boss by boss basis.
Character performance analysis doesn't occur in a vacuum. The effort or skill it takes to pilot a character is directly related to the content that character is participating in and the equipment/stats available to them. While I don't play Lann, the question should not be "How difficult is Lann to play while naked?" but rather "How much effort does it really take to get your Lann to a point where his difficulty takes a notable dive?"
It's like... yeah, playing Delia with 30 attack speed is a literal nightmare but nobody has 30 attack speed anymore so that environment is literally irrelevant - we no longer judge Delias on having no attack speed, so why judge Lanns on having no gear? It's not a realistic scenario.
Also, just because it's possible to facetank and spam merc pots w/ exquisite ironhides doesn't mean we all play that way.
@Cloakshire I agree with you brother about spear lann being closer to medium skill difficulty now. But I still wouldn't place him in that bracket, he's still in high skill difficulty and I'll explain why.
You made some good points to support your claim that lann is easier to play and while I do agree that these skills make it EASIER to play lann, I still would not put him in the just medium difficulty group of classes.
Now keep in mind, I'm looking at it from the perspective of having each class stripped naked, no armor, no accessories, OR just the plain level 90 free gear set. This way we eliminate all the extra armor and defense and whatnot that people are able to use as a crutch to stay alive with rather than relying on skill or you're dead. And this way each class will be on an even playing field.
And I get the feeling a lot of those posting here are thinking with the mindset of someone already experienced in the game and has prior knowledge of boss mechanics. Naturally it wouldn't be as hard to use spear lann then because you know what to expect from the boss, you have the wisdom and game experience on your side. But that's not the point of view we should be looking at it from because that's just going to skew the results - we need to see how difficult it would be for a new player to pick up each class and excel with him or...at least survive right? You aren't going to do very well if you're constantly dying.
If you compare each of the classes this way and a new player to the game tries out spear lann with not much knowledge of boss attack patterns or mechanics, not much knowledge of the game fundamentals, and he just has basic free level 90 gear, spear lann will without a doubt be one of the most difficult classes to get a hang of and play well with compared to most of the other classes in the game. Spear Lann will be one of the first to fall, if not the first one and that spear lann will be dying constantly on a typical level 90 raid.
This is most likely why I would have inherently placed him in the mid tier. I'll admit that I wasn't looking through the lens of a new player, but rather my own lens of a player with 8 years experience as Lann (6 with spears). Comparing the characters evenly across the board with everyone being in the free level 90 set would bump Lann up. That I can agree with. He wouldn't be the highest imo, but I think he would be knocked into the high skill tier with this scenario in place.
Obviously spear lann's survivability has been increased somewhat since he was first released but he still has one of the lowest survivability rates of any other class in the game, that fact still remains. He is still one of the most dangerous classes to play and if you haven't fought that boss a ton of times you will not perform very well at all and you will die A LOT, moreso than most other classes.
This part I cannot agree with nor can I disagree since I haven't played every character.
Nice talking to a fellow spear lann main And you even know about RaidHunter too!
This part is just me fanboying, but yeah I know RaidHunter. Back in 2011, I discovered him and was completely blown away by what he was able to do. The first video I saw of him was his 7min black hammer solo which inspired one of my first Vin videos. I wasn't able to solo him as fast, but I did manage a 27min 1hp solo. His 1hp Thor solo was amazing along with his Inkells fight. The one that really blew me away was his original Glas solo on spears. Whew that takes me back. I even made a custom armor set as an homage to him for being such a big influence on how I learned Lann. You can find it here if you wanna see. I even made his signature ivories, and I also have his old raider/broken ash look +haha.
This last part isn't directed at you but rather some food for though regarding this thread in general. The OP listed 19 of the 21 playable weapons (missed SW Arisha & Tiede Hurk). Instead of unevenly spreading out the classes among the three ranks, why not cut it to be a 7/7/7 split. Or better yet, make one continuous list from easiest to hardest instead of lumping the characters into categories. We have 12 playstyles in the mid tier, but no notation on where they rank among eachother.
And no, i didnt read all of your wall of text posts except the one directed at me.
Okay so you expect to engage in a conversation with someone but you don't want to hear everything a person has to say and consider all of their points first to fully understand where they're coming from (in this case you don't want to read posts before you blurt out whatever nonsense) but you expect everyone to only hear what you have to say, got it. And it's obvious you only skimmed what you did read.
For that reason I won't be reading or responding to your posts.
But thank you for admitting that you in fact have not been reading my posts before you respond, saves me from wasting my time with someone who only cares about their own opinion and no one elses, a bigot. At least you're honest about that.
Why would you even include people that are just stacking defense to have 17/18k defense to cheese everything in the game and make everything a cakewalk in this? And you're exaggerating when you said you can get 17/18k defense without trying, that's simply false because if that were the case everyone or most players would be walking around with 17/18k defense.
17-18k isn't "stacking" defense. I believe a set of +12 dully armor with mediocre essence rolls, passions on your accessories, a pair of fine emeralds, and a few midrange scrolls will net you right around around 17k, which is well within reach of the average player if they put in the effort. Somebody stacking defense would probably be well over 20k.
I'd say 17k is about average these days for players who have moved past the freebie 90 gear. No whaling required.
That's your opinion that 17-18k isn't stacking defense and I say you're wrong. And you are stacking defense if you get a full +12 dullahan set - you're pretty much nearly at defense cap with that so you can't tell me that isn't extremely high defense and also not too many players have defense that high so that's another reason why this is a terrible sample to use to determine actual skill difficulty among each class.
And I'm not going to go off of your "I believe", you're clearly not even sure of yourself and what you're saying so your claims hold no weight, not even going to respond to your guesses, I deal with facts not your guesses and maybes.
There is no "argument" here, it's a simple conversation/discussion about skill difficulties among different classes.
And all of your points you're trying to make are weak, tbh. I can't take you seriously at all when I'm discussing facts and you're throwing in "I believe" or "I guess", "I think" basically - there are millions of kids out there that "believe" in santa claus but that doesn't make him real or his existence a fact now does it?
That's how I feel about your weak points you try to make, I don't believe anything you're saying because you throw in "I believe" this and that which tells me even you don't trust everything you're saying and you aren't sure of what the hell you're talking about.
Stripping characters naked does not place them on equal ground. If anything, it pushes them further apart as some characters require certain stat levels to even become baseline functional in the current boss meta. I'd say a better way to look at the characters would be to give each of them the gear required to perform optimally in the context of current content and then let players of varying skill and experience levels pilot the characters to determine skill floors and ceilings on a boss by boss basis.
First of all I said stripping each character first to compare them OR having them all wear just basic level 90 free gear, don't try to dissect what I say and pick and choose what you want to respond to, only mentioning half of what I said and taking the other half out of context, I said either or, not just naked only because obviously ur gonna take a whole lot of damage if ur naked but still it's a very simple and easy way to compare BASE skill difficulties of a class - whatever enchanted/enhanced gear you have is irrelevant and should not be included because your gear will just carry you anyway and skew the results.
Don't try to make the excuse that "oh that class needs to have this and that armor cuz meta and endgame content" or whatever the hell you were talking about, it doesn't need to be any endgame boss or battle, simply compare the classes with regular free level 90 gear so it's the easiest to compare and place the characters in the average level 90 battle like abomination for instance or regina since those battles aren't too hard but aren't too easy either and see who can survive the longest, which is the most difficult to play with that way, simple.
You're over complicating things trying to introduce endgame bosses and endgame gear and whatnot - sure you CAN obtain 17k+ DEF and compare classes on those endgame battles but not every player is at that level and is able to easily acquire the gear to do that without spending several weeks if not months playing the game nonstop so I'm looking at it from the perspective of a new player to the game or just your every day casual player that's just using a basic free level 90 set.
And no we don't need any players "piloting" classes with high end gear with padded stats to compare skill difficulties on endgame battles because then you have people that already have prior knowledge and experience of the game fundamentals and mechanics and that's just going to make it even easier to play the class and harder to tell which class is truly harder to excel with over the other.
Lastly this has nothing to do with how a class "used to be" in the past or whatever, if you think that has anything to do with what I'm saying you have some serious reading comprehension issues - if I say hey, let's get a group of brand new players to battle Regina (a battle that isn't too easy but is still fairly challenging) for instance either with no armor or a basic free level 90 set I'm not putting them in that kind of environment because I'm hanging on to the past or gear has something to do with it, no. You do that so you don't just have people being carried by gear making it much more difficult to determine which class is TRULY more difficult to play and excel with and they have a battle that won't just wipe every new player in seconds but it isn't too easy either, it's a fairly average level 90 raid.
I'm not going to take endgame content like the dullahan battle and dullahan gear that only a fairly small percentage of the entire playerbase has or is even playing as the sample to use to determine how difficult it is to play any individual class overall.
lol. it has been a while since i've read so much long-winded bullshit in a single post.
i forgot who i was talking to. carry on.
Translation: I'm too stupid to read more than one sentence in a post and I don't belong in threads where intelligent conversation and debates are going on with mature adults. It's too hard for me guys, someone help me and only say one sentence to me at a time because I'm too slow and my attention span is too short. Also he doesn't want to agree with me so I'm going to just say what he said is bullshit because I'm too stupid to say anything else so I'll just throw in profanity to show how salty and angry I am so people think I'm right. I bet they'll think I'm the one that's right if I get emotional and start spewing profanities! Yeah that'll work!
That's a good way to admit you're wrong and don't know what the hell you're talking about, with your "I believe" this and that - you come to this thread and make a long winded post when you're only speculating at that and are unsure of yourself and your claims then you complain when someone responds with a long post like you just made yourself?!
So that makes you a hypocrite.
Typical shameless despicable hypocritical troll filth infesting the Vindictus forums.
I'm glad there's still at least a few smart mature young adults remaining in what's left of the Vindictus community like this gentleman Cloakshire here, was a pleasure to trade thoughts with you brother, respect.
Why def matter, if you play good you wouldn't get hit to the point that it would matter
Almost entirely irrelevant stat when comparing general dps potential of characters
Only stat that matters is speed when comparing potential dps given damage stats are similar (Att removal/add dmg/crit/bal/even raw att)
Facetanking isn't a candidate for a character's potential, so it's always thrown out the window right from the start.
I know this is about 'skill' but it's inevitable that a 'more skilled player' will dish out more dps than a 'less skilled player', besides that's basically what's being measured here, no point in being flashy and never getting hit if you don't ever deliver blows.
Why def matter, if you play good you wouldn't get hit to the point that it would matter
Almost entirely irrelevant stat when comparing general dps potential of characters
That's true, defense doesn't matter if you don't get hit.
And if you take the average player with average gear in an average level 90 raid like Regina for instance playing a spear lann they WILL get hit lots and they will die fairly quickly and that's a very easy way to tell how difficult it really is to play the character. Because unlike other characters, spear lann requires much more knowledge of every single boss attack and mechanic before you even have a chance to excel with him. Other classes are much more forgiving therefore their survivability is much greater. Your average player doesn't have to sit down and watch video of almost every raid battle to do well with a lot of other classes the way you do with spear lann (unless you're a tank with 18k defense of course).
That's much different from giving your average player nearly capped out ridiculously high defense in the average 90 raid or even dullahan because they definitely won't be dying as much and it'll be harder to tell which is the most difficult to play.
And this isn't a dps comparison, dps alone isn't going to tell you how difficult it is to play and excel with a character. Look at great sword Hurk, a class that is pretty much nothing but shift + right click and how much dps he still deals doing this. It isn't very difficult at all to do that yet he has extremely high dps potential.
classic lanns living in the past. just because spear lann loses to every single class doesn't mean he takes skill lol
also its better to compare him to a class like battleshade or arisha, i know multiple hurks in the top 10 rankings and they all agree he takes no skill
classic lanns living in the past. just because spear lann loses to every single class doesn't mean he takes skill lol
also its better to compare him to a class like battleshade or arisha, i know multiple hurks in the top 10 rankings and they all agree he takes no skill
"Classic lanns living in the past"
For the record I was playing on a spear lann just a month or two ago so I'd say I'm fairly up to date on the current state of the class. But I thank you for sharing your useless and irrelevant opinion. And I did mention Arisha is also another very advanced class that also deserves to be in the high skill bracket. If you had bothered to read the thread before posting and making a fool out of yourself you would know that and no, it isn't better to just compare him to the only two classes you choose, every single class should be considered and compared with one another.
But I know everyone wants to give their opinion and feel important no matter how useless it is, I understand, you just want a little attention even if you make yourself look stupid in the process, whatever it takes to get a little attention in your lonely life right? It's okay, I know.
"Just because spear lann loses to every single class..."
LOL please child, you don't know what the hell you're talking about or what this conversation is even about - this isn't about any dps competition or winning or "losing" (as you put it) to other classes fool it's a discussion and comparison between different classes and the skill required to excel with them in the hands of an AVERAGE player with AVERAGE day to day gear a casual or new player would have like free level 90 gear as far as I'm concerned.
Take your nonsense about dps competitions and "losing" to other classes and your top 10 player ranks elsewhere - all you have to do to be in the top 10 ranks in Vindictus is spend the most money on the game and you're done. It's the top 10 whale rankings, you don't need any actual skill to spend thousands of dollars on the game to get a high rank, you just open your wallet and the opinions of these players are the last I would care about.
And please dude, keep your he said she said rumors to yourself, I don't care what your supposed top 10 hurk friends said about spear lann's difficulty. Those same hurks are playing on one of the easiest most braindead classes in the game, they know nothing about class skill difficulties and the fact that they've put so much money into a Hurk that they're top 10 rank reinforces my point even more.
Hurk is literally one of the most well known meme characters of this game, it's a joke class, all the character is doing is spamming shift + right click 99% of the time and anyone who loves a character like that to the extent that they would reach top 10 rank should not be giving their opinions on which class takes skill and which doesn't.
You sound like a girl that knows nothing about sports but wants to jump into a sports debate and tell everyone what's what and act like they know everything about it and act like they're smarter than everyone to stroke their own ego or fit in or something.
Comments
No, you can't just assume the other characters are just considered medium difficulty pulling that out of thin air like that, just because character creation didn't give them a label.
You can't tell me that Arisha is just a medium difficulty class to play - that along with spear lann are two of the most advanced classes in this game that require extremely high game IQ, much more knowledge of the game mechanics and fundamentals to perform even decently with (not including players that just stack defense and become tanks).
As a long time Spear Lann main, I do appreciate the hype you're giving spears but nowadays that's just not true anymore. Back before the ignition update when spear Lann had no iframes, I would have whole heartedly agreed with you. Even after he was given a minor 0.3 second iframe in his roll (Season 2), I would still agree with you. However, spear lann has received too many adjustments that knocked him out of the high skill bracket.
These include
All these combined take Lann from being "one of the most difficult classes to play," down to the mid tier in terms of skill. Gone are the days when you had to take a page from RaidHunter's book to be good. I'm not saying he's easy, but he's definitely not the hardest to play anymore.
Just tossing out a random idea here but something I would recommend to return Lann's high risk high reward gameplay would be to adjust belclaire. Instead of 20% more damage with no drawback, make it 50% more damage & the downsides would be that you take double damage plus 40% of your def is ignored. (This wouldn't apply to a red hit aka unblockable attack though). This would cut down on a person's ability to def stack their way through bosses. Either do low damage safely or do high damage with a high risk. If this were done, a spear lann doing a lot of damage without dying would once again be the mark of a skilled player. The numbers aren't to be taken literally, but rather to illustrate the concept of using Belclaire to return spear lann to the low survivability + high dps.
I do agree that xgun kai is waaaay easier than spear lann though. I also agree that he should be in the low or mid low skill bracket, but I cannot say for sure as I have never played kai.
Lastly, was that a Ben Shapiro quote? If so, nice!
Besides if your shooting with gun at a distince your playing Crossgun wrong
And secondly, while I haven't been playing since I heard about Nexon being sued for their gachas, I was playing just a few months ago so no, my information is not "outdated by 1 or 2 years", take your lies elsewhere. You probably just skimmed my previous post and saw I was talking about how lann used to be and what kind of a class he was designed to be and you went off of that alone like a fool.
If reading is too hard for you bro just say it, not everyone can be smart and not everyone knows how to read, we have to have the stupid ones like yourself that cry about posts being too long because they have the attention span of a goldfish to keep the balance you know, I understand, it's okay. Or you're one of those kids that say "TL;DR" because they think it's cool to be stupid and not read things, I know, you want to fit in with the other stupid people in your generation, you want to look cool by being stupid too, I get it. Thanks for pointing out your stupidity though, it saves me from wasting my time reading any more of your spam posts in the future.
@Cloakshire I agree with you brother about spear lann being closer to medium skill difficulty now. But I still wouldn't place him in that bracket, he's still in high skill difficulty and I'll explain why.
You made some good points to support your claim that lann is easier to play and while I do agree that these skills make it EASIER to play lann, I still would not put him in the just medium difficulty group of classes.
Now keep in mind, I'm looking at it from the perspective of having each class stripped naked, no armor, no accessories, OR just the plain level 90 free gear set. This way we eliminate all the extra armor and defense and whatnot that people are able to use as a crutch to stay alive with rather than relying on skill or you're dead. And this way each class will be on an even playing field.
And I get the feeling a lot of those posting here are thinking with the mindset of someone already experienced in the game and has prior knowledge of boss mechanics. Naturally it wouldn't be as hard to use spear lann then because you know what to expect from the boss, you have the wisdom and game experience on your side. But that's not the point of view we should be looking at it from because that's just going to skew the results - we need to see how difficult it would be for a new player to pick up each class and excel with him or...at least survive right? You aren't going to do very well if you're constantly dying.
If you compare each of the classes this way and a new player to the game tries out spear lann with not much knowledge of boss attack patterns or mechanics, not much knowledge of the game fundamentals, and he just has basic free level 90 gear, spear lann will without a doubt be one of the most difficult classes to get a hang of and play well with compared to most of the other classes in the game. Spear Lann will be one of the first to fall, if not the first one and that spear lann will be dying constantly on a typical level 90 raid.
Obviously spear lann's survivability has been increased somewhat since he was first released but he still has one of the lowest survivability rates of any other class in the game, that fact still remains. He is still one of the most dangerous classes to play and if you haven't fought that boss a ton of times you will not perform very well at all and you will die A LOT, moreso than most other classes.
Nice talking to a fellow spear lann main
Spear lann has seen many changes over the years, and while i find myself nostalgic everyday over the glory days of 1hp play, mechanics and items have made this no longer an option. Optimal gearing gives you over 17/18k defense without trying.
The second thing ill point out is probably the biggest. The need for spear lann to be skillful was due to a massive character function using fury infusion. A simple right click begote EVERY combo would slowly nuke your health. Add in 0 invulnerable frame, and you definitely have a case for needing skill over any other requirement to play this class effectively.
Nexon has made spear lann into what he is now, a face tanking right click holder. Im sorry to say it, because i truly was a believer and passionate player of the 1hp, light armor spear lann.
Okay I clearly said that I'm talking about comparing each class side by side WITHOUT just wearing a bunch of great gear that's enchanted or stacking defense to become a tank so you either didn't read what I said or you're just skimming posts and vomiting out irrelevant information.
Why would you even include people that are just stacking defense to have 17/18k defense to cheese everything in the game and make everything a cakewalk in this? And you're exaggerating when you said you can get 17/18k defense without trying, that's simply false because if that were the case everyone or most players would be walking around with 17/18k defense.
Literally your only argument is that "oh this class doesn't require any skill if you just stack defense to get 17/18k defense and become A TANK" well no s hit sherlock, that makes EVERY class easy to play and require no skill...
OBVIOUSLY if someone is stacking defense wearing a bunch of defense boosting gear to reach that amount of 17/18k DEF you can face tank most things in the game and it throws any skill requirements of the class out the window for ANY class and that's exactly why I said the classes must be compared as if they had no armor/accessories on or just basic free level 90 gear on to have a proper controlled environment to compare the actual skill difficulty of the classes.
And spear lann will be one of the most difficult to excel with or even survive with under those circumstances.
There is no way in hell you can just be a "face tanking right click holder" on a spear lann with basic free level 90 gear or wearing average gear you see on your every day casual player that isn't just stacking defense. You will die in seconds.
Now if you're a whale and you're intentionally building your gear so that you have as much defense as possible so you don't or rarely die and you don't need to have any actual skill that doesn't mean the class requires little skill it just means you're whaling and you made your class into a tank and that's why you're able to facetank, not because the class has all of a sudden become a facetank class.
Please dude, you're really sounding like an elitist and that's the last thing we need in this conversation comparing skill requirements of each class. Maybe you can get 17/18k defense easily "without trying" as you put it but many or maybe even most players can't. Gear has nothing to do with base skill requirements of an individual class.
If you want to compare all classes evenly, why does it need to be at minimum level instead of maximum?
The elitist label is fine with me. You can use your view point and current gear status to back up your opinion but it doesnt make it truth. Dullahan armor and weapon gives you that defense, which with the current meta, is optimal geared. You seem to insinuate that a whale is someone with good gear, when good gear is EVERYONES goal. Aside from the fashion enthusiasts.
If you REALLY want to compare classes by using the garbage gear as your argument, spear lann still doesnt win in challenge.
And no, i didnt read all of your wall of text posts except the one directed at me.
Edit: i wont check this again as to not be riled up and in an argument. I do not think your opinion will be swayed. I might have gear, but ive been here since beta and its no reason to put someone down or claim superior skill. Your argument is very self focused and that is not helping either.
If you DO want some help or to vent and discuss things im totally free for that in game. I have a special place in my heart for spear lann but hes not what he used to be.
---Technical
17-18k isn't "stacking" defense. I believe a set of +12 dully armor with mediocre essence rolls, passions on your accessories, a pair of fine emeralds, and a few midrange scrolls will net you right around around 17k, which is well within reach of the average player if they put in the effort. Somebody stacking defense would probably be well over 20k.
I'd say 17k is about average these days for players who have moved past the freebie 90 gear. No whaling required.
--
Your argument is generally flawed tbh.
Stripping characters naked does not place them on equal ground. If anything, it pushes them further apart as some characters require certain stat levels to even become baseline functional in the current boss meta. I'd say a better way to look at the characters would be to give each of them the gear required to perform optimally in the context of current content and then let players of varying skill and experience levels pilot the characters to determine skill floors and ceilings on a boss by boss basis.
Character performance analysis doesn't occur in a vacuum. The effort or skill it takes to pilot a character is directly related to the content that character is participating in and the equipment/stats available to them. While I don't play Lann, the question should not be "How difficult is Lann to play while naked?" but rather "How much effort does it really take to get your Lann to a point where his difficulty takes a notable dive?"
It's like... yeah, playing Delia with 30 attack speed is a literal nightmare but nobody has 30 attack speed anymore so that environment is literally irrelevant - we no longer judge Delias on having no attack speed, so why judge Lanns on having no gear? It's not a realistic scenario.
Also, just because it's possible to facetank and spam merc pots w/ exquisite ironhides doesn't mean we all play that way.
This is most likely why I would have inherently placed him in the mid tier. I'll admit that I wasn't looking through the lens of a new player, but rather my own lens of a player with 8 years experience as Lann (6 with spears). Comparing the characters evenly across the board with everyone being in the free level 90 set would bump Lann up. That I can agree with. He wouldn't be the highest imo, but I think he would be knocked into the high skill tier with this scenario in place.
This part I cannot agree with nor can I disagree since I haven't played every character.
This part is just me fanboying, but yeah I know RaidHunter. Back in 2011, I discovered him and was completely blown away by what he was able to do. The first video I saw of him was his 7min black hammer solo which inspired one of my first Vin videos. I wasn't able to solo him as fast, but I did manage a 27min 1hp solo. His 1hp Thor solo was amazing along with his Inkells fight. The one that really blew me away was his original Glas solo on spears. Whew that takes me back. I even made a custom armor set as an homage to him for being such a big influence on how I learned Lann. You can find it here if you wanna see. I even made his signature ivories, and I also have his old raider/broken ash look +haha.
This last part isn't directed at you but rather some food for though regarding this thread in general. The OP listed 19 of the 21 playable weapons (missed SW Arisha & Tiede Hurk). Instead of unevenly spreading out the classes among the three ranks, why not cut it to be a 7/7/7 split. Or better yet, make one continuous list from easiest to hardest instead of lumping the characters into categories. We have 12 playstyles in the mid tier, but no notation on where they rank among eachother.
Okay so you expect to engage in a conversation with someone but you don't want to hear everything a person has to say and consider all of their points first to fully understand where they're coming from (in this case you don't want to read posts before you blurt out whatever nonsense) but you expect everyone to only hear what you have to say, got it. And it's obvious you only skimmed what you did read.
For that reason I won't be reading or responding to your posts.
But thank you for admitting that you in fact have not been reading my posts before you respond, saves me from wasting my time with someone who only cares about their own opinion and no one elses, a bigot. At least you're honest about that.
That's your opinion that 17-18k isn't stacking defense and I say you're wrong. And you are stacking defense if you get a full +12 dullahan set - you're pretty much nearly at defense cap with that so you can't tell me that isn't extremely high defense and also not too many players have defense that high so that's another reason why this is a terrible sample to use to determine actual skill difficulty among each class.
And I'm not going to go off of your "I believe", you're clearly not even sure of yourself and what you're saying so your claims hold no weight, not even going to respond to your guesses, I deal with facts not your guesses and maybes.
There is no "argument" here, it's a simple conversation/discussion about skill difficulties among different classes.
And all of your points you're trying to make are weak, tbh. I can't take you seriously at all when I'm discussing facts and you're throwing in "I believe" or "I guess", "I think" basically - there are millions of kids out there that "believe" in santa claus but that doesn't make him real or his existence a fact now does it?
That's how I feel about your weak points you try to make, I don't believe anything you're saying because you throw in "I believe" this and that which tells me even you don't trust everything you're saying and you aren't sure of what the hell you're talking about.
First of all I said stripping each character first to compare them OR having them all wear just basic level 90 free gear, don't try to dissect what I say and pick and choose what you want to respond to, only mentioning half of what I said and taking the other half out of context, I said either or, not just naked only because obviously ur gonna take a whole lot of damage if ur naked but still it's a very simple and easy way to compare BASE skill difficulties of a class - whatever enchanted/enhanced gear you have is irrelevant and should not be included because your gear will just carry you anyway and skew the results.
Don't try to make the excuse that "oh that class needs to have this and that armor cuz meta and endgame content" or whatever the hell you were talking about, it doesn't need to be any endgame boss or battle, simply compare the classes with regular free level 90 gear so it's the easiest to compare and place the characters in the average level 90 battle like abomination for instance or regina since those battles aren't too hard but aren't too easy either and see who can survive the longest, which is the most difficult to play with that way, simple.
You're over complicating things trying to introduce endgame bosses and endgame gear and whatnot - sure you CAN obtain 17k+ DEF and compare classes on those endgame battles but not every player is at that level and is able to easily acquire the gear to do that without spending several weeks if not months playing the game nonstop so I'm looking at it from the perspective of a new player to the game or just your every day casual player that's just using a basic free level 90 set.
And no we don't need any players "piloting" classes with high end gear with padded stats to compare skill difficulties on endgame battles because then you have people that already have prior knowledge and experience of the game fundamentals and mechanics and that's just going to make it even easier to play the class and harder to tell which class is truly harder to excel with over the other.
Lastly this has nothing to do with how a class "used to be" in the past or whatever, if you think that has anything to do with what I'm saying you have some serious reading comprehension issues - if I say hey, let's get a group of brand new players to battle Regina (a battle that isn't too easy but is still fairly challenging) for instance either with no armor or a basic free level 90 set I'm not putting them in that kind of environment because I'm hanging on to the past or gear has something to do with it, no. You do that so you don't just have people being carried by gear making it much more difficult to determine which class is TRULY more difficult to play and excel with and they have a battle that won't just wipe every new player in seconds but it isn't too easy either, it's a fairly average level 90 raid.
I'm not going to take endgame content like the dullahan battle and dullahan gear that only a fairly small percentage of the entire playerbase has or is even playing as the sample to use to determine how difficult it is to play any individual class overall.
lol. it has been a while since i've read so much long-winded bullshit in a single post.
i forgot who i was talking to. carry on.
Translation: I'm too stupid to read more than one sentence in a post and I don't belong in threads where intelligent conversation and debates are going on with mature adults. It's too hard for me guys, someone help me and only say one sentence to me at a time because I'm too slow and my attention span is too short. Also he doesn't want to agree with me so I'm going to just say what he said is bullshit because I'm too stupid to say anything else so I'll just throw in profanity to show how salty and angry I am so people think I'm right. I bet they'll think I'm the one that's right if I get emotional and start spewing profanities! Yeah that'll work!
That's a good way to admit you're wrong and don't know what the hell you're talking about, with your "I believe" this and that - you come to this thread and make a long winded post when you're only speculating at that and are unsure of yourself and your claims then you complain when someone responds with a long post like you just made yourself?!
So that makes you a hypocrite.
Typical shameless despicable hypocritical troll filth infesting the Vindictus forums.
I'm glad there's still at least a few smart mature young adults remaining in what's left of the Vindictus community like this gentleman Cloakshire here, was a pleasure to trade thoughts with you brother, respect.
Almost entirely irrelevant stat when comparing general dps potential of characters
Only stat that matters is speed when comparing potential dps given damage stats are similar (Att removal/add dmg/crit/bal/even raw att)
Facetanking isn't a candidate for a character's potential, so it's always thrown out the window right from the start.
I know this is about 'skill' but it's inevitable that a 'more skilled player' will dish out more dps than a 'less skilled player', besides that's basically what's being measured here, no point in being flashy and never getting hit if you don't ever deliver blows.
That's true, defense doesn't matter if you don't get hit.
And if you take the average player with average gear in an average level 90 raid like Regina for instance playing a spear lann they WILL get hit lots and they will die fairly quickly and that's a very easy way to tell how difficult it really is to play the character. Because unlike other characters, spear lann requires much more knowledge of every single boss attack and mechanic before you even have a chance to excel with him. Other classes are much more forgiving therefore their survivability is much greater. Your average player doesn't have to sit down and watch video of almost every raid battle to do well with a lot of other classes the way you do with spear lann (unless you're a tank with 18k defense of course).
That's much different from giving your average player nearly capped out ridiculously high defense in the average 90 raid or even dullahan because they definitely won't be dying as much and it'll be harder to tell which is the most difficult to play.
And this isn't a dps comparison, dps alone isn't going to tell you how difficult it is to play and excel with a character. Look at great sword Hurk, a class that is pretty much nothing but shift + right click and how much dps he still deals doing this. It isn't very difficult at all to do that yet he has extremely high dps potential.
also its better to compare him to a class like battleshade or arisha, i know multiple hurks in the top 10 rankings and they all agree he takes no skill
"Classic lanns living in the past"
For the record I was playing on a spear lann just a month or two ago so I'd say I'm fairly up to date on the current state of the class. But I thank you for sharing your useless and irrelevant opinion. And I did mention Arisha is also another very advanced class that also deserves to be in the high skill bracket. If you had bothered to read the thread before posting and making a fool out of yourself you would know that and no, it isn't better to just compare him to the only two classes you choose, every single class should be considered and compared with one another.
But I know everyone wants to give their opinion and feel important no matter how useless it is, I understand, you just want a little attention even if you make yourself look stupid in the process, whatever it takes to get a little attention in your lonely life right? It's okay, I know.
"Just because spear lann loses to every single class..."
LOL please child, you don't know what the hell you're talking about or what this conversation is even about - this isn't about any dps competition or winning or "losing" (as you put it) to other classes fool it's a discussion and comparison between different classes and the skill required to excel with them in the hands of an AVERAGE player with AVERAGE day to day gear a casual or new player would have like free level 90 gear as far as I'm concerned.
Take your nonsense about dps competitions and "losing" to other classes and your top 10 player ranks elsewhere - all you have to do to be in the top 10 ranks in Vindictus is spend the most money on the game and you're done. It's the top 10 whale rankings, you don't need any actual skill to spend thousands of dollars on the game to get a high rank, you just open your wallet and the opinions of these players are the last I would care about.
And please dude, keep your he said she said rumors to yourself, I don't care what your supposed top 10 hurk friends said about spear lann's difficulty. Those same hurks are playing on one of the easiest most braindead classes in the game, they know nothing about class skill difficulties and the fact that they've put so much money into a Hurk that they're top 10 rank reinforces my point even more.
Hurk is literally one of the most well known meme characters of this game, it's a joke class, all the character is doing is spamming shift + right click 99% of the time and anyone who loves a character like that to the extent that they would reach top 10 rank should not be giving their opinions on which class takes skill and which doesn't.
You sound like a girl that knows nothing about sports but wants to jump into a sports debate and tell everyone what's what and act like they know everything about it and act like they're smarter than everyone to stroke their own ego or fit in or something.