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Character Skill vs. Reward

clearcutclearcut
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edited June 24, 2018 in General Discussion
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Would you agree?

I know the type of raid matters, and party vs. solo as well but just in general.
whats a teide

Comments

  • erthoserthos
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    Glaive Lynn should be high skill low reward, and Pillar Karok should maybe be medium reward but it's pretty good overall
  • CloakshireCloakshire
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    edited June 23, 2018
    I haven't dabbled in Teide Hurk, but from what I've seen, his dodge doesn't have many iframes and it seems like maintaining his wounds requires some micromanagement.

    I would say he's either in the medium or possibly the high. I could be wrong, but that's just my observation.
  • InnoyInnoy
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    Seems fair,
  • DrachusDrachus
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    edited June 24, 2018
    Bow Kai & Staff Evie high skill ?XD

    I'm guessing Reward means DPS.

    Also I know you said general idea but what should that even mean? Are you looking it as a party or as solo or the average performance in both? Do you take into consideration the highest quality gameplay or average? If so you'd need a much larger sample size to make this sort of post.
    TheStatsHero
  • noctrednoctred
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    Kinda hard to vote without knowing the criteria for skill and reward.
    Drachus
  • TheStatsHeroTheStatsHero
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    be9.jpg
    Sir_Render
  • Order5Order5
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    No Small/Large Shield categories? That's okay I guess.

    Delia is the lowest skill character. I don't think that's even debatable since her kit is like 80% of an actual character when compared to the others with only 4 actives and smashes up to LLLR. You can go ahead and debate the "reward" whatever that is (damage? utility?...sex appeal?). Furthermore, once you get 70+ attack speed, people just ignore 40% of that already lacking character kit to spam Falling Comet.
    Quinque
  • noctrednoctred
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    edited June 24, 2018
    Order5 wrote: »
    Delia is the lowest skill character. I don't think that's even debatable since her kit is like 80% of an actual character when compared to the others with only 4 actives and smashes up to LLLR. You can go ahead and debate the "reward" whatever that is (damage? utility?...sex appeal?). Furthermore, once you get 70+ attack speed, people just ignore 40% of that already lacking character kit to spam Falling Comet.

    Delia's "skill" comes down to landing your smashes consistently. With how prone you are to having your fully backloaded damage interrupted and damage loss on hit stemming from dropping vigor stacks (leading to wasted time or wasted SP re-applying it), I'd say using Delia's relatively small kit correctly on smaller and/or more aggressive bosses isn't nearly as braindead as your post seems to imply. If every boss in the game was equivalent to an infection-less Eochaid, I'd probably agree with you, though at that point every character becomes pretty braindead.

    I'd say Delia has a reasonably high skill floor and a low skill ceiling, with the skill floor having a inverse relationship with attack speed, to a finite degree.

    Just my opinion.
  • Order5Order5
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    edited June 24, 2018
    noctred wrote: »
    Delia's "skill" comes down to landing your smashes consistently. With how prone you are to having your fully backloaded damage interrupted and damage loss on hit stemming from dropping vigor stacks (leading to wasted time or wasted SP re-applying it), I'd say using Delia's relatively small kit correctly on smaller and/or more aggressive bosses isn't nearly as braindead as your post seems to imply. If every boss in the game was equivalent to an infection-less Eochaid, I'd probably agree with you, though at that point every character becomes pretty braindead.

    I'd say Delia has a reasonably high skill floor and a low skill ceiling, with the skill floor having a inverse relationship with attack speed, to a finite degree.

    Just my opinion.

    Didn't mean to imply it was "braindead". I simply said Delia is the lowest skill character class when you stack her against the other classes. She is easy to learn, and easy to manage; she doesn't have a large pool of skills to choose from when using SP, area effects that require tactical timings and placements, two resources to manage, multiple different stacks that you need to accumulate consistently, or several cool-down timers to be mindful of.

    Every character has their complexities. However, that doesn't oppose my point of her requiring the lowest skill to use.
    Quinque
  • noctrednoctred
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    edited June 24, 2018
    Order5 wrote: »
    However, that doesn't oppose my point of her requiring the lowest skill to use.

    Having a large kit is one thing. Execution is another. The amount of Delias I see who struggle to land smashes without getting chunked or interrupted halfway through (not due to low speed) is about the same as the amount of xguns I see running around playing at near maximum efficiency with comparatively minimal effort (that is, a lot of both).

    It's also highly boss dependent.

    Agree to disagree I guess.
    Order5
  • InnoyInnoy
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    I find Delia to be one of the most difficult characters to deal effective damage. To use an inverse example, I fine Arisha to be one of the easier characters to do effective damage. This is assuming you play both at an equal subjective skill level. I'm not sure if this speaks on just the basic power level of the characters or the -skill- it takes to do well with them, I think the former. Personally I think Delia is just not very versatile and her linear mode to do damage makes fights frustrating.
  • Arrow95Arrow95
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    edited June 26, 2018
    idk about Bow Kai has medium reward, if you hit hunter eye marks and headshots consistently its just crazy damage @clearcut
    @Drachus it is near impossible to use bow kai optimally his skill ceiling is really up there because of hunter eye and headshot
  • BLudamidaBLudamida
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    Arrow95 wrote: »
    idk about Bow Kai has medium reward, if you hit hunter eye marks and headshots consistently its just crazy damage @clearcut
    @Drachus it is near impossible to use bow kai optimally his skill ceiling is really up there because of hunter eye and headshot

    Go play CSGO for a a month or two, and come back as the best kai ever hitting dem hunter eyes + headshots
  • MmmBaconMmmBacon
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    For the most part correct.
    I agree that bow kai should be high skill and high reward, only true top 5 beast can handle his skill ceiling.
    Also greatsword should be low skill high reward
  • CloakshireCloakshire
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    MmmBacon wrote: »
    Also greatsword should be low skill high reward

    I would disagree and say that GS Hurk should stay in the mid skill range.
  • LoyalCasherLoyalCasher
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    edited June 27, 2018
    Cloakshire wrote: »
    MmmBacon wrote: »
    Also greatsword should be low skill high reward

    I would disagree and say that GS Hurk should stay in the mid skill range.

    GS Hurk should be mid skill mid reward/high reward depending on the raid imo.
  • TechnicallyTechnically
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    Low skill for Sylas...? I might be biased, but being a low dps support class seems a bit more challenging than some of the others.

    Add in landing spirit rend for every combo and charging your smash for that extra second, aimed SP skills, as well as a tool kit to keep your party alive, and id say you have the makings of the most mobile and active class in the game.

    Then again everyone hates Sylas for some reason. My love for him is based on fun factor and challenge.
  • DeprivedDeprived
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    edited June 29, 2018
    Crossgun Kai in medium skill bracket? And then you place spear lann, probably one of THE MOST DIFFICULT classes to master in the game in medium skill bracket? Behind bow kai?! The class that can just spring across the map to safety when they want? Please get your s hit together man.

    Because holding left click to AUTO FIRE and having the best dodge with the most invulnerability frames in the game only behind Scythe Evie's blink requires so much skill right?

    Crossgun Kai should be in the low skill bracket for the above reasons alone. The class requires very little skill, it's a class that was created for the casuals and normies that DO NOT have any actual skill in the game to have an easy way to do lots of damage with little effort, it was a class made to milk money off of the casuals and normies who have no skill.

    I know this may offend some and rustle some feathers but it's the truth, the truth hurts sometimes.

    When Vindictus first started it was done right where you had a class like spear lann which has the lowest survivability in the game but to BALANCE that you were rewarded if you were able to play well with him and could survive with high damage output.

    That makes sense right? Most gamers know of the glass cannon concept, high risk high rewards for a class in games.

    Years later they release classes like Crossgun Kai (to make money off of casuals) that have HIGH SURVIVABILITY and HIGH DAMAGE?! And balance was thrown out the window. Why is the class with the SECOND BEST DODGE in the game dealing damage that rivals that of the classes with the worst dodges and the lowest survivability like spear lann? Well for money of course - if you're a casual, you aren't actually good at the game and you want to lie to yourself that you're actually good doing tons of nuke damage with almost the best dodge in the game to aid you and look cool while doing it then crossgun Kai is your answer.

    And of course now the spear lann class is ruined, it isn't what it once was anymore because now all you have to do is wear a bunch of armor and stack defense to become a tank then you get the best of both worlds - high defense and high damage output. If you ask me, spear lann should not have ever been allowed to wear heavy/plate+ armor because now you can just face tank most things in the game with enough defense. That's not what spear lann was supposed to be - why do you think Lann is given 30% or so less defense than every other class in the game? Because it was supposed to have been a high risk high reward character. Especially spear lann, not so much sword lann, he is given skills to survive better and has much better mobility and maneuverability.

    But being able to stack defense on spear lann and deal all that high damage lets the casuals with no skill take advantage of the class without having to work to get good at the game and with the class and Nexon/devcat makes money off of them spending all that money on the class so of course they won't care or devcat.

    Money ruins everything sadly.

    /endrant

    I think you get the point, crossgun Kai does not deserve to be in the medium skill bracket, it's low skill and spear lann should be in high skill. (No, you spear lanns that just stack defense are not good at the game for that simple fact alone, you're just a tank and you give a bad name to the class).
    Quinque
  • Arrow95Arrow95
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    edited June 29, 2018
    "Salt"
    About invuls, Crossgun kais is 0.50 seconds
    Spear lann .30(base)+Invul skill(am not sure on the max rank what it is) but should be .79/.78 not to mention he got boasted .7 more frames when neam came out.
  • DeprivedDeprived
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    Arrow95 wrote: »
    "Salt"

    "I'm offended so he must be salty"

    Facts don't care about your feelings.

    Crossgun kai is without a doubt easier to play than spear lann and spear lann is one of the most difficult classes in the game to play especially if you aren't just stacking defense.

    Crossgun kai has almost the best dodge in the game and should be in the low skill bracket.