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Your Thoughts on Additional Damage Changes?

boddoleboddole
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edited June 25, 2017 in General Discussion
Hello everyone, I've certainly got my thoughts on the recent changes to Additional Damage (which I'll enumerate though momentarily), but I'd also like to hear your thoughts on the issue.

Some Math:
Using the relevant portion of the damage formula (10.9k Eff. Att. * 0.95 Bal + Add. Dmg. * 6.25) which omits the final ability multiplier, we can compare relative 'output' for individual weapon enhancement levels both against themselves and other brackets. I've chosen +10 (probably where most people are able to achieve), 13 (first level with no 'safety items' on failure (is the true now?) ), and of course +15 as comparison points [feel free to ask about the math if you want, I'm omitting it for now to reduce post size].

Change in 'Output' from a Given Enhancement Level (Old to New):
+10: up ~29.8%
+13: ~94.8%
+15: ~138%

Change in Relative 'Output' between Enhancement Levels:
13 vs 10 was: ~5.6% is now: ~58.5%
15 vs 10 was: ~10.1% is now: ~101.8%
15 vs 13 was: ~4.2% is now: ~27.3%

Percentage of 'Output' Accounted for by Additional Damage per Enhancement Level:
10 was: ~6.7% is now: ~28.1%
13 was: ~11.7% is now: ~54.7%
15 was: ~15.3% is now: ~64.4%

So before, there was always a noticeable 'gap' between 'average' and 'maxed' players due to enhancement (which I think is fine), but now the distance is almost from one planet to the next. Good luck 'staying close' to someone with that much more damage output, and forget it if they have similarly enhanced armor. To me this is what I would scientifically describe as being "bonkers", making the 'new meta' smashing enhancement level and attack speed to the moon at the expense of everything else (until you hit 13 to 15 anyway...).

Short Version: Gotta get dem rune $$'s!!.
XieSlothPrincess_KaleDillonz

Comments

  • KevinKevin
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    A couple years ago, they revamped the damage system so that players with mediocre gear would not be so far behind players with min-maxed gear in terms of damage output. They just destroyed that concept with the AD changes here. It used to be I could almost compare damage to people with +15s, but now I am getting smoked with even a +13 weapon. It's a terrible change.
    arkaine757XieSlothPrincessDillonz
  • hornywatermelonhornywatermelon
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    edited June 25, 2017
    After the initial amazement with huge numbers on crits I came to conclusion it was unnecessary change. There could've been a lot cooler ideas introduced to incentivize going past +15.

    AD from armours is actually ok on its own, not paired with weapon changes since there was very little point in enhancing them.
  • lumix345lumix345
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    As a holder of a +15 90 weapon, it really worries me that I can play like absolute crap compared to other more highly skilled players and still do like 50% dps cause of the increased additional dmg.

    Its great that they made leveling much more streamlined and gave new players a way to break into the end game with +10 enchanted purp gear and a free OJ Wep Feather as a lvl 90 gift, but what is the point for them to stay afterwards since the only way to do damage meaningfully now is to stack AD? Pretty much the only way to do that is play the RNG game, but with RISE getting high enhanced items got SIGNIFICANTLY more difficult because you can't double boom and you can only +13 once you have a FULL OJ item, all along side the reduced enhancement chances and the bug (or lie?) where rare items are supposed to have increased drop rate but aren't dropping.

    The additional damage increase could have been nice if they had been a little more conservative about increasing its value but at this rate new players are just gonna join, steamroll through story, get frustrated by the end-game and the gap between their chars and deck-out chars and then quit without spending a dime. Hell, this update also slapped the faces of veteran players because 1) Reduced the enhancement rates AND prevented double booms that while may have resulted in rage quitting was one of the main reasons why people could get high enhancements in the first place, but more importantly 2) high enhanced lvl 80 weps got DRASTICALLY nerfed compared to lvl 90 weps, again (surprise, surprise) due to the new AD increase.

    If the developers thought this game could continue surviving by either 1) making the true end game more unobtainable so that "Whales" will fork out more money to get it, or 2) make the game much more accessible to new/casual players so that they would have more people spending money on the game, then they definitely missed their mark with AD. How the the hell are you suppose to even get anybody to spend money on this game and keep it afloat when they are basically punishing everybody whether they be new players or old players?!

    P.S. this rant has been brought to you by a biased "Whale" by the way :*
    Xie7thRoninLoLoBooty
  • EmerthystEmerthyst
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    Sometimes I think publishers and sometimes devs think players can't see these 'invisible' numbers and won't complain but video game players aren't dumb when it comes to numbers and we do realize what their formulas are and they need to realize this.
    arkaine757GewelliriousPrototypemindBloodAngel
  • XaldinZXaldinZ
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    edited June 25, 2017
    Just wanna post this Here about this AD thing
    +13 Regina LongSword +2000 AD http://prntscr.com/fo46lf
    +15 Armagedon hammer ONLY +1450 http://prntscr.com/fo46v0

    tell me how this makes sense? If anything Lvl 80 gear should NOT be EVEN more handicapped. I feel like there is no point to my +15 80 now. A full charged stigma on Muir Hero crit did 26k while a Crit Amaranth did 42k from the sword

    Both those dmg where in stage 2 Paladin with Maxed out Transendance
    7thRonin
  • ikeviikevi
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    XaldinZ wrote: »

    tell me how this makes sense? If anything Lvl 80 gear should NOT be EVEN more handicapped. I feel like there is no point to my +15 80 now.

    This change was obviously to give even more incentive to the lv 60-80 folks to upgrade...

    In this sense I am just glad they didn't decide to down grade all <lv 90 +15 gear to +12.
  • WhiteYukiiWhiteYukii
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    Honestly, Who cares?

    This is a pure PvE co-op game. People bringing more damage into your raid group can only ever be mutually beneficial, and eventually you will get more damage as you get geared as well. "Wow someone who is FAR more feared than me just out dpsed the hell out of me and carried the raid, how unfair!!!" Yeah that is SUPPOSED to happen??? Its not like you need the extra damage to begin with because they made the game so much more easier to steamroll. Stop pretending this is some awful change, it literally won't negatively effect you in the slightest. Also, getting the gear to begin with does take a degree of skill as well.

    Besides...almost no one gonna have a weapon past +15 anyways.
  • V0lterixV0lterix
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    WhiteYukii wrote: »
    Honestly, Who cares?

    This is a pure PvE co-op game. People bringing more damage into your raid group can only ever be mutually beneficial, and eventually you will get more damage as you get geared as well. "Wow someone who is FAR more feared than me just out dpsed the hell out of me and carried the raid, how unfair!!!" Yeah that is SUPPOSED to happen??? Its not like you need the extra damage to begin with because they made the game so much more easier to steamroll. Stop pretending this is some awful change, it literally won't negatively effect you in the slightest. Also, getting the gear to begin with does take a degree of skill as well.

    Besides...almost no one gonna have a weapon past +15 anyways.

    I can't believe this is the first time I've seen someone try to justify these AD changes, as well as try to argue that getting geared takes skill. You are delusional.
    BloodAngel
  • XaldinZXaldinZ
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    WhiteYukii wrote: »
    Honestly, Who cares?

    This is a pure PvE co-op game. People bringing more damage into your raid group can only ever be mutually beneficial, and eventually you will get more damage as you get geared as well. "Wow someone who is FAR more feared than me just out dpsed the hell out of me and carried the raid, how unfair!!!" Yeah that is SUPPOSED to happen??? Its not like you need the extra damage to begin with because they made the game so much more easier to steamroll. Stop pretending this is some awful change, it literally won't negatively effect you in the slightest. Also, getting the gear to begin with does take a degree of skill as well.

    Besides...almost no one gonna have a weapon past +15 anyways.

    Here is what you missing.
    Hosts! Not everyone got a perfect net to host for themselfs If a host want 3k ADD dmg then thats that.
    Another Thing. Do you really think we needed extra DMG when everything now dies so fast? Do you really enjoy that experience?

    And Yes there are +16 allready in the server. I saw one on the vella chat allready.
  • Question2Question2
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    edited June 25, 2017
    Everything dies fast huh? Try to see how much damage you do in s3 or nif with only the free +10 gear. Or try doing hero mode muir.
    PortulEnigmaTaro
  • PuppymanPuppyman
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    edited June 25, 2017
    Question2 wrote: »
    Everything dies fast huh? Try to see how much damage you do in s3 or nif with only the free +10 gear. Or try doing hero mode muir.

    Doesn't justify intense otherworldly power creep
  • WhiteYukiiWhiteYukii
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    edited June 25, 2017
    V0lterix wrote: »
    I can't believe this is the first time I've seen someone try to justify these AD changes, as well as try to argue that getting geared takes skill. You are delusional.
    I am not "justifying it" I am saying, there is literally no reason for you to care.

    XaldinZ wrote: »
    Here is what you missing.
    Hosts! Not everyone got a perfect net to host for themselfs If a host want 3k ADD dmg then thats that.
    Another Thing. Do you really think we needed extra DMG when everything now dies so fast? Do you really enjoy that experience?

    And Yes there are +16 allready in the server. I saw one on the vella chat allready.
    Idiots hosting ridiculous att requirement boats have always been a thing in this game. This is nothing new.
    And the real question is, if the game is so easy, why do you care how much AD someone has? Even if it was still hard, if someone had a bunch of AD, that ONLY helps you clear faster, this is mutually beneficial. Thats what I am saying, you are getting upset at probably the least important thing wrong in this update. You should be upset that they added +20 or made the game faceroll to begin with.
    Question2 wrote: »
    Everything dies fast huh? Try to see how much damage you do in s3 or nif with only the free +10 gear. Or try doing hero mode muir.

    S3 content was never meant to be done by new players in bare minimum gear. This was always the end game. Also not sure why bring this up, this is not an argument.
    EnigmaTaro
  • elcausaelcausa
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    WhiteYukii wrote: »
    Honestly, Who cares?

    This is a pure PvE co-op game. People bringing more damage into your raid group can only ever be mutually beneficial, and eventually you will get more damage as you get geared as well. "Wow someone who is FAR more feared than me just out dpsed the hell out of me and carried the raid, how unfair!!!" Yeah that is SUPPOSED to happen??? Its not like you need the extra damage to begin with because they made the game so much more easier to steamroll. Stop pretending this is some awful change, it literally won't negatively effect you in the slightest. Also, getting the gear to begin with does take a degree of skill as well.

    Besides...almost no one gonna have a weapon past +15 anyways.

    I do care and pretty sure I'm not the only one, the one and only thing I liked about vindictius was the combat, it was fun while it lasted,
    While I wasn't trying to be the best player I still fund it fun to try to find ways to do better and not be a leech (seems like you enjoy that but don't assume everyone does) while yes I agree that someone bringing more damage into a raid is mutually beneficial, it went too far and made the game too reliant on the enhance values your gear has, and made getting good at your char pointless. also the scaling on additional damage is horrible, a raid (if 4 man can still be called a raid xD) party with players under 2k AD will struggle and even could time out, 2-3k AD will finish in 5-10 mins, while one with 3k+ AD will finish in seconds.

    I have no idea what do you mean you need skill to get good gear because is rng, you either farmed, got lucky or used cash no skill involved in either method.
    pre rise, beating a party of players with +15s with a +5 explosive/mael staff priceless post rise there's mastercard.
  • GewelliriousGewellirious
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    edited June 25, 2017
    WhiteYukii wrote: »
    Also, getting the gear to begin with does take a degree of skill as well.
    Spamming the same morbus boss to get money sure takes skill lol... ^^'

    Makes me understand why Rise actually happened on this game when I see certain posts on these forums.
  • EnigmaTaroEnigmaTaro
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    Just make agreement with your party to equip event armors, or even rookie wear, if you desperately want challenging game. You just won't see majority of players wanting to do that though. But hey, instead of getting 7 people to agree, you only need to get 3 to agree now!

    Devcat giving players more freedom with gearing, better droprate for enchant and removed blue shards from droptable. I can finally put fast and passion enchants on alts that I've been trying to gear.

  • ikeviikevi
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    EnigmaTaro wrote: »
    Just make agreement with your party to equip event armors, or even rookie wear, if you desperately want challenging game. You just won't see majority of players wanting to do that though. But hey, instead of getting 7 people to agree, you only need to get 3 to agree now!

    Devcat giving players more freedom with gearing, better droprate for enchant and removed blue shards from droptable. I can finally put fast and passion enchants on alts that I've been trying to gear.

    I would only be running with event armor etc if it still gave crit cap + att spd of ~80. But I don't know of a way to have those stats + not have Add damage ~3k... (And playing as a lann crit cap is a must while att spd just makes it fun.)
  • WhiteYukiiWhiteYukii
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    This is not as bad as people want it to be. As I said, there is literally no reason to be outraged by this, The game is still largely the same, strong players will hard-carry and weak players will leech until they become a strong player, or quit. Vindictus has always been like this, at least for the last few years. This game is like Warframe, it doesn't matter how strong other players get, it will always be mutually beneficial for everyone they interact with. This is all I am saying. In my opinion, the fact that they made the raids faceroll, or you can't enhance restored gear anymore are way bigger issues because these directly affect every player in the game. I could not care less if some dude that has better gear than me anyways, got some more AD than me. This is a beta issue especially for this type of game.

    WhiteYukii wrote: »
    Also, getting the gear to begin with does take a degree of skill as well.
    Spamming the same morbus boss to get money sure takes skill lol... ^^'

    Makes me understand why Rise actually happened on this game when I see certain posts on these forums.

    There is skill in patience
    There is skill in time/money management
    There is skill in planning
    There is skill in spending your IRL money wisely (unless you are just a rich whale that can waste money left and right)
    There is skill in having the sheer willpower to play this grindy ass game.
    The game isn't just fighting the boss, most of the game is farming, grinding, planning and patience. There is a reason some people cannot and/or will not ever be as geared as the best players. It is not ALL skill but it does take some skill to achieve this in any game. Everything in life, including breathing and reading this post, takes a degree of skill to execute.
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
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    XaldinZ wrote: »
    Just wanna post this Here about this AD thing
    +13 Regina LongSword +2000 AD http://prntscr.com/fo46lf
    +15 Armagedon hammer ONLY +1450 http://prntscr.com/fo46v0

    tell me how this makes sense? If anything Lvl 80 gear should NOT be EVEN more handicapped. I feel like there is no point to my +15 80 now. A full charged stigma on Muir Hero crit did 26k while a Crit Amaranth did 42k from the sword

    Both those dmg where in stage 2 Paladin with Maxed out Transendance

    This is the most unfair part of the update. There were players who put in the time and effort to make the most out of the +15 70 and 80 weapons that they had and all of that energy was invalidated. This is literally DevCat telling players that what they did was worthless in the eyes of the DoL and the Devs. Hitting +15 on those weapons, likely rescrolling when new enchants came out, and everything possible out of accessories and other enchants and now you're nothing compared to someone who got lucky with an OJ +12.

    It's insulting to treat the players this way, but as seen in this thread there are players who will gobble it up and try and tell everyone else how good it tastes. I hope their love of this horror show is enough to keep Vindi afloat, cause my dollars certainly won't be doing it.
    Xie
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
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    edited June 25, 2017
    WhiteYukii wrote: »
    This is not as bad as people want it to be. As I said, there is literally no reason to be outraged by this, The game is still largely the same, strong players will hard-carry and weak players will leech until they become a strong player, or quit. Vindictus has always been like this, at least for the last few years. This game is like Warframe, it doesn't matter how strong other players get, it will always be mutually beneficial for everyone they interact with. This is all I am saying. In my opinion, the fact that they made the raids faceroll, or you can't enhance restored gear anymore are way bigger issues because these directly affect every player in the game. I could not care less if some dude that has better gear than me anyways, got some more AD than me. This is a beta issue especially for this type of game.

    WhiteYukii wrote: »
    Also, getting the gear to begin with does take a degree of skill as well.
    Spamming the same morbus boss to get money sure takes skill lol... ^^'

    Makes me understand why Rise actually happened on this game when I see certain posts on these forums.

    There is skill in patience
    There is skill in time/money management
    There is skill in planning
    There is skill in spending your IRL money wisely (unless you are just a rich whale that can waste money left and right)
    There is skill in having the sheer willpower to play this grindy ass game.
    The game isn't just fighting the boss, most of the game is farming, grinding, planning and patience. There is a reason some people cannot and/or will not ever be as geared as the best players. It is not ALL skill but it does take some skill to achieve this in any game. Everything in life, including breathing and reading this post, takes a degree of skill to execute.

    Those things that you mention don't equate to skill in game. For some reason you missed that others are arguing that the point of this update is to get people to feel their best option is to spend real money to progress. Someone who drops a few hundred--or a few thousand if they're unlucky--on the new special runes and premium runes and NX boxes for airtight items to sell for gold to buy whatever they don't get lucky on does not reflect in game skill, and it never will.

    Guess what? Once that person who's all geared out hops into a raid even if they're horrible that stacked gear will keep them alive and ever hit they get on the boss in their unskilled flailing will get them more rewards than someone who knows the bosses, knows their character, and puts in the effort to play well--simply because they don't have the gear.

    That is not a good system. You believe what you like, but your point has been refuted in other threads and multiple times in this one.
    XieKayoAemskey
  • HonokaHonoka
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    This system managed to change kicking lower geared players from your boat, to kicking high geared players so the boss doesn't die in 2 minutes.
    XiePixelPantsuKayoAemskeyNuclearChicken