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Lynns and Lanns were fairly popular in KR and NA (not just on their releases) and now they arent played as much. So what your saying is that all of a sudden with little to no mechanical changes to those classes they all of a sudden became harder and people dont play them anymore?
No i didn't say this. You're saying it. Imo lynn population is lower(lann not so much, i see many on eu) because she's hard to master = hard to be efficient. Because of this, i think that people should just leave lynn or any other character if they can't make it work propeely and it frustrates them so much to make such threads. Just a generic speech, dont get salty.
Your saying a company like Devcat is doing a decent job at balancing when a class such as Evie is one of the top dps classes, best support class by far and above average defenses?
No. If you ask me to express my thought there you have it : characters are as they want them to be. :-)
Good balance is if one class is good at damage maybe they arent great at defense or have low support abilities. Maybe a class that has no range hits hard as they have more risk. However, In Vindictus, there are characters with low damage, support and defense and vice versa. Lanns and Lynns arent just the only ones, but are the most extreme. Why dont you see Pillar Karoks in Nea, but you see a bunch of Cestus Karoks? Ive seen people play sword Lanns for years and do much better in Nea in a week with spear lanns.
You can point out that X person is a good Lynn and Y person is a great Lann but if that same person had an equivalent Evie or Kai for example and mastered those classes they would be doing much better. They aren't better classes because they are easier they are just better classes. Them being easier is just an extra bonus in that I can slack off playing evie or kai and do terrible and still match a good run for a lynn/lann (assuming equally skilled/geared players).
I never claim to be the best player out there, but I clear Nea weekly on 4 different classes around mid-level gear and do around 15-20% dmg with 0.5 average deaths per fight so I think I can judge different classes well.
Making comparison of different characters, especially in Nam, is just WRONG. Ofc some are better, what did you expect, equality? Dream on sweetheart. Each character faces the battle based on it's own play style. Some results to be easier/more efficient. Doesn't mean that it is unbalanced.
But w/e just post on these forums assuming that anyone who asks for balance is just a noob or needs to get better. I guess we cant really expect any less from you when your opening comment is "shut the f*ck up".
Lann was my first character (Closed Beta) I gave up on him and made Kai instead. I haven't regretted it one moment, its just a fluid class. I decided to try out my Lann again, got it to level 90 but it's just frustrating class to play, I think I'm fairly good at my Kai but whenever I switch back to my Lann its like being handicapped, terrible dodge, bad range, bad defense, slow and clunky. I've been playing my karok recently and it just made me scratch my head as to why a class with more defense skills and whatnot has better dodge than lann. Most raids you;re just dodging, then you gotta run away to hp pot and that's slow as hell, run back dodge more. Only way you can play Lann (and enjoy) it is if you have powerful gear with good enchants.
The HP pot changes in RISE update will be beneficial for Lanns, lookin forward to that atleast
Making comparison of different characters, especially in Nam, is just WRONG. Ofc some are better, what did you expect, equality? Dream on sweetheart. Each character faces the battle based on it's own play style. Some results to be easier/more efficient. Doesn't mean that it is unbalanced.
These comparisons extend outside of Nea. Nea is only a good example because its where defense, offense and support comparisons matter most. For example, defense is cared about less on season 1/2/3 raids when most people will intentionally trade hits for damage (depending on class) ? Same goes with many support type skills. Yes each class has their own play style, but each class should have an advantage in some area. That is not the case. The only way to find balance is to compare the different classes and if your just stating that 'some are better' than you might not know what balanced means?
Did you also agree with "I think the determining factor is that: when you "master" playing your character, certain classes get more bang for their buck in most areas: DPS, survivability, etc." ? If I had to describe what unbalanced means this would be a good example.
Do not forget that balancing does not solely involve buffing weaker characters. Some characters have an excessive amount of "situational" abilities.
Also, I'm not even sure why people bother reading someone's try-hard wall of text...let alone feed a troll. A wall of text is hard enough to read, but this troll goes on to add needless italics and GIFs that make it harder to read.
Yet Phoebe has a point, expecting super balance between characters exceed utopia.
I main Scythe, when I go "ego", I aim at outdamaging other Scythes. If let's say Bow as less base damage than Scythe, I really don't care outdpsing them.
I often outdamage scythes actually, or I'm around the same % when they have +13 or higher.
Yet, there is a +15 Sylas, that, even with the same enhancement lvl back when he had +12, used to always create a gap of 5%+ in damage everytime I (recently) raided with him.
However you don't hear Sylas is much more powerful than Scythe, but here's the living proof.
Don't you think there is a reason Scythe had no nerfs nor buffs ? (they never "buffed" Arcane, they just fixed it because it's indeed dumb to deal the same damage w/o end animation)
I'm confident devCat managed to actually balance half the cast of characters, the difference is how some chars have it way harder to show of the potential of their char compare to some others.
Also, every single detail counts, making pretty much every char more or less "hard" to master. Lynn has actually good damage, problem being how tedious it is to actually exploit the maximum of her damage, compared to let's say... Sword Vella.
At this point, to avoid the "mi mi mi, my character" bs, they should remove all damage dealt to the boss so we're finally at peace with this thing.
Also, I'm not even sure why people bother reading someone's try-hard wall of text...let alone feed a troll. A wall of text is hard enough to read, but this troll goes on to add needless italics and GIFs that make it harder to read.
Making comparison of different characters, especially in Nam, is just WRONG. Ofc some are better, what did you expect, equality? Dream on sweetheart. Each character faces the battle based on it's own play style. Some results to be easier/more efficient. Doesn't mean that it is unbalanced.
These comparisons extend outside of Nea. Nea is only a good example because its where defense, offense and support comparisons matter most. For example, defense is cared about less on season 1/2/3 raids when most people will intentionally trade hits for damage (depending on class) ? Same goes with many support type skills. Yes each class has their own play style, but each class should have an advantage in some area. That is not the case. The only way to find balance is to compare the different classes and if your just stating that 'some are better' than you might not know what balanced means?
Did you also agree with "I think the determining factor is that: when you "master" playing your character, certain classes get more bang for their buck in most areas: DPS, survivability, etc." ? If I had to describe what unbalanced means this would be a good example.
I'm sorry but comparing classes is just time wasted imo. Be it in neam or outside doesn't really matter. Now let's not talk about it anymore. Bye sugar
I don't think you can, not compare classes if the topic is balance?
The main point of balance is leveling the field across characters, and not comparing classes to others is counter-productive to the topic.
I wish I could agree with all you people who think it's just skill, but Lynn really falls behind if she can't get Guillotines out. And even if she does, other classes still do more damage much more easily and consistently. Unfortunately, skill only takes you so much until you will start feeling gated by speed.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Lynn does pretty good damage on her good matchups, but still fall behind slightly vs. the stronger classes. On her bad matchups, we start to see the gap grow much wider.
Posts: Lets not be unrealistic and let us stop talking about balance
I mean, I'm talking a bit strongly hear so forgive me, but the point of the topic was who do we think needs a revamp the most with the main criteria provided by the post's creator being low dps or clunky gameplay.
I mean, I'm talking a bit strongly hear so forgive me, but the point of the topic was who do we think needs a revamp the most with the main criteria provided by the post's creator being low dps or clunky gameplay.
No one cares about balance because it's impossible to do so, not to mention you have to do it with ELEVEN characters, which SIX of them have their secondary weapon, for a total of 17 WAYS to deeps. 18 in a few weeks btw (Teide).
Clunky gameplay is what we look the most, and it's definitely :
L_nn
- Asking for Crit to SPECIFICALLY use one of Lann's main move ? Yeah no, Spears has it better due to Fury Infusion but really, that's why Sword Lann is still clunky af. Not bad, clunky. And what happens when you land your glides ? You still deal less damage than top chars LUL
- Why would you literally bother to perfectly land 10 timed smashes while other chars deal 3X more just by pressing shift-R ?? AND THUS WAY FASTER THAN THESE 10 TIMED SMASHES LUL
It's like you're masochist or something. But, I actually rather main Lynn/Lann than Vella/Kai, at least it makes the game more interesting, somehow.
Lynn and Lann both need fixes. Lann if far, far too gear dependent, and even slight mistakes leave him eating floor and falling behind for a while because of it. Even DOL it seems had to admit that him taking extra damage from Belclair wasn't really a suitable mechanic when other characters aren't penalized for doing whatever is necessary to achieve max damage, and most of them certainly don't have to land a specific attack on the boss to keep that damage up.
Lynn is even worse. In order to quickly apply marks there's a ton of SP burn in comparison to a lot of other characters when working for max damage. Even with marks constantly applied, it's so easy for Chambers to miss, or Little Rat or Wind Step to flake out that there's a lot more effort going to naught when her attacks miss. There's also the fact that S3 neutralizes her stagger against bosses. I don't understand why devs think it's a good idea to teach players to utilize every item in their kit and then to take some of them away down the road.
Anyway, TLDR, Lynn and Lann return too little reward for the gearing and effort required compared to other characters. Lynn's marks also need to be reworked. Both Delia and Sylas have an indicator for timing their highest damage attacks and have a fair amount of leeway in getting them. The slightest issue with host ping, a stutter, or just being the tiniest bit off means blue instead of gold on Lynn. The timing is way too tight in comparison. I managed it 90% of the time, but on Delia and Sylas it's never an issue and they both feel like they play as they should.
Sword Lann:
-Inconsistent/clunky dodge
-Low mobility
-Reliance on crit
-Needing 5 more crit than everyone else
-Subpar dmg
Spear Lann:
-Much better than swords, in a decent position. Moonsplitter dmg just need to be upped a bit imo
-Possibly expand on Acceleration to make less reliant on atk speed.
-Lynn:
-Clunky dodge, specially Little Rat. Hopefully Rise fixes that.
-Dmg is okay, could be better. They need to remove the massive hit delay with her 0 charge and possibly make her normals a tad bit faster.
In priority I would say Sword lann needs the most revamp out of anyone on the roster, and Spear/Lynn are about 2nd.
Sword Lann:
-Inconsistent/clunky dodge
-Low mobility
-Reliance on crit
-Needing 5 more crit than everyone else
-Subpar dmg
Spear Lann:
-Much better than swords, in a decent position. Moonsplitter dmg just need to be upped a bit imo
-Possibly expand on Acceleration to make less reliant on atk speed.
-Lynn:
-Clunky dodge, specially Little Rat. Hopefully Rise fixes that.
-Dmg is okay, could be better. They need to remove the massive hit delay with her 0 charge and possibly make her normals a tad bit faster.
In priority I would say Sword lann needs the most revamp out of anyone on the roster, and Spear/Lynn are about 2nd.
Lynn also could use just a tiny bit more range. Like half a glaive tip. I always feel when I miss it's just by that much.
[Personal Preference]
L'll say this, beacuse no one is talking about kai, Bow Kai "Should" have his invul iframes boasted up to 0.40(my personal opinion) right now there 0.33, it is pretty bad far as dodges and no being ranged doesnt matter, if you are going to dodge an attack you should be able to dodge it, not dodge it and beacuse of low invuls you get hit anyway. Some of his skills should get a little update like eagle eye( I know it will never happen, but would be nice) eagle eyes damage to sp use ratio is really bad. Theres a glitch on bow kai where normaly when you chain rico shot after mag shot it auto locks on the boss, works on alot of bosses like bigger ones like lako but on bosses like neam/iset the auto aimed rico shot just shoots at the ground, that should be fixed.
Far as Crossgun i wouldnt say he "Needs" anything but his dodge should get an upgrade is it not great atm, and maybe during enhance bolt nuke as a 100 crit chance and, enhance bolt perforates can get headshots(like bow kai i know it will never happen, but would be nice).
I'd like a few minor QOL improvements for CB Vella's dodge (0.25 sec iframe is pretty pathetic... the only thing that's good about it is the distance she travels) Also, biting cold seems to only work 50% of the time, it would be nice if it worked as it was intended to. They are pretty minor things, but they would make a pretty big difference.
L'll say this, beacuse no one is talking about kai, Bow Kai "Should" have his invul iframes boasted up to 0.40(my personal opinion) right now there 0.33, it is pretty bad far as dodges and no being ranged doesnt matter, if you are going to dodge an attack you should be able to dodge it, not dodge it and beacuse of low invuls you get hit anyway. Some of his skills should get a little update like eagle eye( I know it will never happen, but would be nice) eagle eyes damage to sp use ratio is really bad. Theres a glitch on bow kai where normaly when you chain rico shot after mag shot it auto locks on the boss, works on alot of bosses like bigger ones like lako but on bosses like neam/iset the auto aimed rico shot just shoots at the ground, that should be fixed.
Far as Crossgun i wouldnt say he "Needs" anything but his dodge should get an upgrade is it not great atm, and maybe during enhance bolt nuke as a 100 crit chance and, enhance bolt perforates can get headshots(like bow kai i know it will never happen, but would be nice).
This thread is about a character revamping, not perfecting the top class.
You have reasonable wants for adjustments but no, just no. Let Lynn and Lann get some attention.
Buff Sword Lann
Return his heightened critical damage to what it was before, or buff his glide damage to what it was before. Maybe one of the two needed a nerf at the time but not both. They pretty much reverted his damage to what it was prior to his revamp while still making him harder to gear than every other character.
Buff Lynn
Full bloom effect only does 15k. For the amount of effort put in to getting full bloom that's a **** reward. Bloody thread does 15k and doesn't take the effort of landing 10 gold marks. Hollow Shot does 30k and is literally free. I don't see how full bloom's damage makes sense.
Also remove all the unnecessary frames from Long Arm Devil and lengthen the window that little rat can be used after wind step...
Fix wind step already wtf...
Just delete hammer Fiona, she's gotten nothing the four times you revisited and buffed sword Fiona.
L'll say this, beacuse no one is talking about kai, Bow Kai "Should" have his invul iframes boasted up to 0.40(my personal opinion) right now there 0.33, it is pretty bad far as dodges and no being ranged doesnt matter, if you are going to dodge an attack you should be able to dodge it, not dodge it and beacuse of low invuls you get hit anyway. Some of his skills should get a little update like eagle eye( I know it will never happen, but would be nice) eagle eyes damage to sp use ratio is really bad. Theres a glitch on bow kai where normaly when you chain rico shot after mag shot it auto locks on the boss, works on alot of bosses like bigger ones like lako but on bosses like neam/iset the auto aimed rico shot just shoots at the ground, that should be fixed.
Far as Crossgun i wouldnt say he "Needs" anything but his dodge should get an upgrade is it not great atm, and maybe during enhance bolt nuke as a 100 crit chance and, enhance bolt perforates can get headshots(like bow kai i know it will never happen, but would be nice).
This thread is about a character revamping, not perfecting the top class.
You have reasonable wants for adjustments but no, just no. Let Lynn and Lann get some attention.
Am not allowed to talk about Kai? just some ideas for a small revamp and kai is far from perfect
Bow Kais damage is such trash(on non sandbag bosses) its one of the classes that is impossable to solo neam, but anyway i said what i said most importantly about his trash dodge. I do Agree about Lann he "needs and diserves" a revamp idk about lynn since i dont play her and my knownage on her is very limited.
I'll have to agree that Bow Kai is in a pretty sub-par position atm. Giving him some iframes/dmg boost would bring him up to speed with other characters.
Comments
No. If you ask me to express my thought there you have it : characters are as they want them to be. :-)
Making comparison of different characters, especially in Nam, is just WRONG. Ofc some are better, what did you expect, equality? Dream on sweetheart. Each character faces the battle based on it's own play style. Some results to be easier/more efficient. Doesn't mean that it is unbalanced.
The HP pot changes in RISE update will be beneficial for Lanns, lookin forward to that atleast
Lann is stuck in season 1, please fix
These comparisons extend outside of Nea. Nea is only a good example because its where defense, offense and support comparisons matter most. For example, defense is cared about less on season 1/2/3 raids when most people will intentionally trade hits for damage (depending on class) ? Same goes with many support type skills. Yes each class has their own play style, but each class should have an advantage in some area. That is not the case. The only way to find balance is to compare the different classes and if your just stating that 'some are better' than you might not know what balanced means?
Did you also agree with "I think the determining factor is that: when you "master" playing your character, certain classes get more bang for their buck in most areas: DPS, survivability, etc." ? If I had to describe what unbalanced means this would be a good example.
Also, I'm not even sure why people bother reading someone's try-hard wall of text...let alone feed a troll. A wall of text is hard enough to read, but this troll goes on to add needless italics and GIFs that make it harder to read.
I main Scythe, when I go "ego", I aim at outdamaging other Scythes. If let's say Bow as less base damage than Scythe, I really don't care outdpsing them.
I often outdamage scythes actually, or I'm around the same % when they have +13 or higher.
Yet, there is a +15 Sylas, that, even with the same enhancement lvl back when he had +12, used to always create a gap of 5%+ in damage everytime I (recently) raided with him.
However you don't hear Sylas is much more powerful than Scythe, but here's the living proof.
Don't you think there is a reason Scythe had no nerfs nor buffs ? (they never "buffed" Arcane, they just fixed it because it's indeed dumb to deal the same damage w/o end animation)
I'm confident devCat managed to actually balance half the cast of characters, the difference is how some chars have it way harder to show of the potential of their char compare to some others.
Also, every single detail counts, making pretty much every char more or less "hard" to master. Lynn has actually good damage, problem being how tedious it is to actually exploit the maximum of her damage, compared to let's say... Sword Vella.
At this point, to avoid the "mi mi mi, my character" bs, they should remove all damage dealt to the boss so we're finally at peace with this thing.
I'm sorry but comparing classes is just time wasted imo. Be it in neam or outside doesn't really matter. Now let's not talk about it anymore. Bye sugar
The main point of balance is leveling the field across characters, and not comparing classes to others is counter-productive to the topic.
I wish I could agree with all you people who think it's just skill, but Lynn really falls behind if she can't get Guillotines out. And even if she does, other classes still do more damage much more easily and consistently. Unfortunately, skill only takes you so much until you will start feeling gated by speed.
I've said it before, and I'll say it again. Lynn does pretty good damage on her good matchups, but still fall behind slightly vs. the stronger classes. On her bad matchups, we start to see the gap grow much wider.
Posts: Lets not be unrealistic and let us stop talking about balance
I mean, I'm talking a bit strongly hear so forgive me, but the point of the topic was who do we think needs a revamp the most with the main criteria provided by the post's creator being low dps or clunky gameplay.
No one cares about balance because it's impossible to do so, not to mention you have to do it with ELEVEN characters, which SIX of them have their secondary weapon, for a total of 17 WAYS to deeps. 18 in a few weeks btw (Teide).
Clunky gameplay is what we look the most, and it's definitely :
L_nn
- Asking for Crit to SPECIFICALLY use one of Lann's main move ? Yeah no, Spears has it better due to Fury Infusion but really, that's why Sword Lann is still clunky af. Not bad, clunky. And what happens when you land your glides ? You still deal less damage than top chars LUL
- Why would you literally bother to perfectly land 10 timed smashes while other chars deal 3X more just by pressing shift-R ?? AND THUS WAY FASTER THAN THESE 10 TIMED SMASHES LUL
It's like you're masochist or something. But, I actually rather main Lynn/Lann than Vella/Kai, at least it makes the game more interesting, somehow.
Lynn is even worse. In order to quickly apply marks there's a ton of SP burn in comparison to a lot of other characters when working for max damage. Even with marks constantly applied, it's so easy for Chambers to miss, or Little Rat or Wind Step to flake out that there's a lot more effort going to naught when her attacks miss. There's also the fact that S3 neutralizes her stagger against bosses. I don't understand why devs think it's a good idea to teach players to utilize every item in their kit and then to take some of them away down the road.
Anyway, TLDR, Lynn and Lann return too little reward for the gearing and effort required compared to other characters. Lynn's marks also need to be reworked. Both Delia and Sylas have an indicator for timing their highest damage attacks and have a fair amount of leeway in getting them. The slightest issue with host ping, a stutter, or just being the tiniest bit off means blue instead of gold on Lynn. The timing is way too tight in comparison. I managed it 90% of the time, but on Delia and Sylas it's never an issue and they both feel like they play as they should.
Sword Lann:
-Inconsistent/clunky dodge
-Low mobility
-Reliance on crit
-Needing 5 more crit than everyone else
-Subpar dmg
Spear Lann:
-Much better than swords, in a decent position. Moonsplitter dmg just need to be upped a bit imo
-Possibly expand on Acceleration to make less reliant on atk speed.
-Lynn:
-Clunky dodge, specially Little Rat. Hopefully Rise fixes that.
-Dmg is okay, could be better. They need to remove the massive hit delay with her 0 charge and possibly make her normals a tad bit faster.
In priority I would say Sword lann needs the most revamp out of anyone on the roster, and Spear/Lynn are about 2nd.
Lynn also could use just a tiny bit more range. Like half a glaive tip. I always feel when I miss it's just by that much.
[Personal Preference]
Far as Crossgun i wouldnt say he "Needs" anything but his dodge should get an upgrade is it not great atm, and maybe during enhance bolt nuke as a 100 crit chance and, enhance bolt perforates can get headshots(like bow kai i know it will never happen, but would be nice).
This thread is about a character revamping, not perfecting the top class.
You have reasonable wants for adjustments but no, just no. Let Lynn and Lann get some attention.
Return his heightened critical damage to what it was before, or buff his glide damage to what it was before. Maybe one of the two needed a nerf at the time but not both. They pretty much reverted his damage to what it was prior to his revamp while still making him harder to gear than every other character.
Buff Lynn
Full bloom effect only does 15k. For the amount of effort put in to getting full bloom that's a **** reward. Bloody thread does 15k and doesn't take the effort of landing 10 gold marks. Hollow Shot does 30k and is literally free. I don't see how full bloom's damage makes sense.
Also remove all the unnecessary frames from Long Arm Devil and lengthen the window that little rat can be used after wind step...
Fix wind step already wtf...
Just delete hammer Fiona, she's gotten nothing the four times you revisited and buffed sword Fiona.