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Since i don't care for being the very best in the game. and usually just settle for living longer compared to being a glass cannon. the classes seem fine to me. However i've only played Fiona Evie Arisha and Sylas. Well. atleast those are the only ones i've kept with the others where tried and deleted at a later time.
Mind you. the below is what i noticed when they first came out or a few weeks later. or in general i just didn't keep them very long and i'm sure have been patched atleast slightly
Lynn when i first tried her out. had so many glitches it wasn't real.
Little Rat for example. even when i executed it Perfectly i still took damage.
Half the time my stacks. Zhen and regular wouldn't detonate. And very over all she just seemed very weak.
Her hit box also seemed rather small. which is just ridiculous. what with her having a Glaive and all
Sword Lann. needs a better dodge. thats about the only problem i had with him. didn't bother with spears
Never tried Karok. atleast not that i can recall
I tried out Kai. but not long enough to come to any conclusions. same with Hurk
I never really had a problem with Sword Fiona. at the time it was annoying because while i had seen others be able to. i was never able to block in time to negate damage and counter. probably due to a lack of SPD. but now with deflection there aren't any complaints there.
Hammer on the other hand. could use a rework. and Giant shield can really just be scrapped completely. i've only ever seen maybe one or two fionas with a large shield. all the others just use small. Shield enhancement/Deflection for LS. and Slashing High/Deflection/Taunt for Hammer is what i usually see
Only problem i've ever had with Arisha was the timing needed to execute Mana Drain. and her active SP skill Ruin Blade. But thats just because i'm horrible at timing. Although i've noticed in the past that alot of attacks seemingly bypass Mana drain. even when you land a perfect and thus i still took damage. even now. 2? years later it still happens sometimes.
Sylas. He mainly just needs a block of Some kind. i realize his main focus is usually long range. but still i've seen only a few Sylas's be able to survive for long. and the ones that cant usually die a horrible death and leave me cringing in my seat. making appropriate Ohh and Ouch noises. I've seen one be used as a frisby before. let it be known that Lord Glas doesn't like Sylas
I haven't bothered with Delia yet. though she seems to handle her own just fine. Some Delias i've come across are nothing more than glass cannons, others actually know when to pull out and when to attack.
Evie. I main Staff and haven't really found any problems. except for when my charge glitches and i cant move or turn at all till i get beat up by the boss. that's been a problem since i first started playing 4 years ago. but it's fairly uncommon. so i doubt it will ever be fixed. Also my ember will work 50/50 but i suspect that's more todo with my keyboard than anything else.
Scythe. i'm terrible at so i cant really give a explanation of possible problems. aside from running out of stamina stupidly fast. even with Insane reaper active.
As for Vella. i had problems with Cross cutting. and i never tried chainblades. though she got changed quite a bit from her revamp so i don't know if the problems with CC are still present or not.
I play mostly Lynn so my opinion:
-enjoying gameplay as it is now (hate fast attacking bosses when you can't even use 2nd smash)
-Lynn is mostly attack speed dependant with high attack speed you can have nice dmg (compared to arisha, and it was one of the best arisha I have ever seen, same stats we got around the same dmg [s3 dou ~50% 80/90/120 ABC]) but of course she isn't good against fast attacking bosses
-she isn't good for farming (slow movement speed, creeps don't give stamina)
-it's can difficult for beginners to do good dmg with her since you need to have all marks golden and know the boss patterns to choose best smash (also good def if you want to attack while getting hit to deal more dmg)
-many dodge bugs (with low fps and/or bad connection you will notice it more)
-windstep buf relies on connection (if you have delay you will get it after little rat so you can't jump in the initial little rat - causing loss of dmg and you can get hit after)
-hitboxes and range (as some1 said before) - small range (smaller than delia or valla/lann with fused swords) sometimes you hit the boss (you can even hear the sound of piercing/hitting) but no dmg or marks aply
-placing golden/enhanced marks relies on fps and connection (with low FPS/bad connection and high atckspeed it can even skip whole final smash)
-also noticed strange delay time of dodges sometimes
Conclusion:
Playing Lynn is very enjoyable if you have high attackspeed, good FPS and connection. She can be very strong if you master her (still can't solo neam as some chars can). I like her as she is now the only thing that could improve would be removing her bugs, give her some reasonable range/hitboxes (so when you hit the boss it would really hit him) and optimize the game (better FPS). No need for Lynn revamp just fix the things that should be fixed
Arisha needs a revamp asap, her damage is really really low, I'm capped on S2 and S3 and Delias / Lanns / Evies / Lynns outdpsme all the time, Arisha pisses me off, man
Lanns and Lynns are outdpsing you? Werent you the best Arisha* on West and East?
even if I'm the best or the worst, Lanns and Lynns simply deals way more damage than Arisha, is just unfair.
Then I don't think you're playing arisha correctly. Arisha, If I am not mistaken is above tier in damage to lann AND lynn....lynn deals mediocre damage without her bubbles of doom. Arisha on the other hand has a diversity of attacks at her disposal not to mention the amount of dodges she has....
agree somewhat above. my arisha outdps most people in any raid i participate, especially in neam, where under equivalent gear, my arisha would only lose to another arisha.
On the other hand, only place delia shines is fking havan...nuking sandbags are no fun with repeated smashes over and over again.
I agree with Sef, Evie is a giant ball of mess because they packed too much into her. While she holds both the position of best healer and a top DPS class, her Alchemy is mostly useless now, and her leveling stages are incredibly clunky.
Then I don't think you're playing arisha correctly. Arisha, If I am not mistaken is above tier in damage to lann AND lynn....lynn deals mediocre damage without her bubbles of doom. Arisha on the other hand has a diversity of attacks at her disposal not to mention the amount of dodges she has....
That just isn't true... A fully decked out/good (doesn't have to be great skilled) Lann will hardly ever be out DPS if they try... Course toss in the stupid waking stones and it makes things a lot more confusing. Off hand I know of a few Karoks, 1 or 2 CB vella and a few kais that will manage to pull away from me when I get serious, but aren't using sp pots/no stims/only use stones on slashing high. (This isn't including redeemers since I don't play that.)
Then we're not talking skill then...in redeemers my Delia will out DPS a lann on equal terms. Arisha in neam is a monster if played correctly as I mentioned before. Any class played correctly will do great. Just comes down to player skill.
I was jkin bruh haha I was trying to make it an obvious joke... Lynn / Lann outdpsing Arisha? lol please that's impossible... if u know what you're doing atleast, I know Arisha is on the top 5 best DPS characters :P
Then we're not talking skill then...in redeemers my Delia will out DPS a lann on equal terms. Arisha in neam is a monster if played correctly as I mentioned before. Any class played correctly will do great. Just comes down to player skill.
I don't know from experience. I for one haven't even done neam more than 5 times... And never in my best equipment. (IE only done it with swords.) Arisha, fifi, Karoks all seemed equally OP there.
And yes any person that is a near perfect player against other folks that are just eh will do better if they all have similar gear.
Then we're not talking skill then...in redeemers my Delia will out DPS a lann on equal terms. Arisha in neam is a monster if played correctly as I mentioned before. Any class played correctly will do great. Just comes down to player skill.
I don't know from experience. I for one haven't even done neam more than 5 times... And never in my best equipment. (IE only done it with swords.) Arisha, fifi, Karoks all seemed equally OP there.
And yes any person that is a near perfect player against other folks that are just eh will do better if they all have similar gear.
Cestus Karok yes, pillar not so much. A good sword fiona and well Arisha is just Arisha in that raid haha but as I mentioned above, dazzler was making a joke about Arisha being low DPS(which I was not aware of). But if we're talking about a good Arisha like Tariro playing against a good lann like Aswolelobster, I'm sure Tariro would win. This is just going off of what I have seen from both respective players. It is an example.
but if we're talking about a good Arisha like Tariro playing against a good lann like Aswolelobster, I'm sure Tariro would win. This is just going off of what I have seen from both respective players. It is an example.
No clue, since I only play on West. But from what I see the outcome will just come down to what raid it is in the long run if they are both good/have capped stats.
Anywho, on the main question. My statement is that all characters could use a tweak or two, but none really need a revamp. (Yes even poor Lynn doesn't need a revamp, she just needs to be given 50 or so more attspd for free ;-)
Comparing Arisha to Sword Lann in Neam is just a bad idea in general. Arisha's kit almost feels like it was tailored for Neam with even resonance seeing planty of use. Meanwhile, Lann is most often huffing and puffing just trying to chase her.
Agree with people up there about Lynn. Most I'd want to see is bug fixes and skill uncaps/small damage buffs. Knowing them, they'd probably make gold mark timing 2 seconds long and this would kill the Lynn.
Hammer on the other hand. could use a rework. and Giant shield can really just be scrapped completely. i've only ever seen maybe one or two fionas with a large shield. all the others just use small. Shield enhancement/Deflection for LS. and Slashing High/Deflection/Taunt for Hammer is what i usually see
Agree. I had used large shield for a few weeks in the beginning. It's only useful if you want more def (shield def + reducing iron defense's cd with PG's) and not being knocked back in heavy stander that is only good until S2, because S3 has the red attacks. It's a viable option but this playstyle is boring.
Also, it would be nice if hammer had Shield enhancement too. That's what i miss from my CA's. : ) Because Enhanced stigma (Slashing high + LLLRLR and even the Deflect + Stigma) takes more time to perform than Shield enhancement + CA + Amaranth kick thus making it difficult to use between the enemy's attacks. If they're step by step making the game more single-player based (referring to the 4-man raids) then every character should share the same difficulty for soloing.
All the characters have good damage if you play them properly.
(by properly i mean learn cooldowns/attack rotation/when to attack and when to back off etc.. combat techniques for the character you're using basically.)
High abc makes the difference for sure but its not just that. There are people with high abc and still perform bad.
Character knowledge is what matters mostly, and you gain that with time and experience. I really don't think any character needs a revamp, maybe adjustments for some of them. Out of all the characters i'd say that hammer fiona is the one that could use some changes, probably.
99% the fionas i ever met in the past year or two were using longsword, wich makes me think that hammer is less convenient,weaker, not fun or just unpopular.
Same thing for large shield. (except in sea of reflection)
Not a fiona player here. Just stating what i see, it could be wrong.
Don't want to disrespect anybody here but i disagree with all of those that say lynn/lann/arisha need revamp/dmg increase or whatever.
It's just not so. I know much people playing those characters and they play really good. Ending up with high dmg outputs.
You can say that it takes a quite high abc to reach a very efficient gameplay, that would be right. Once you get that high abc.. it's all up to you!
People actually voted for Karok? Why? How?
Karok currently is damn near perfect in terms of moveset and gameplay, he needs tweaks not a full blown revamp...
All the characters have good damage if you play them properly.
(by properly i mean learn cooldowns/attack rotation/when to attack and when to back off etc.. combat techniques for the character you're using basically.)
High abc makes the difference for sure but its not just that. There are people with high abc and still perform bad.
Character knowledge is what matters mostly, and you gain that with time and experience. I really don't think any character needs a revamp, maybe adjustments for some of them. Out of all the characters i'd say that hammer fiona is the one that could use some changes, probably.
99% the fionas i ever met in the past year or two were using longsword, wich makes me think that hammer is less convenient,weaker, not fun or just unpopular.
Same thing for large shield. (except in sea of reflection)
Not a fiona player here. Just stating what i see, it could be wrong.
Don't want to disrespect anybody here but i disagree with all of those that say lynn/lann/arisha need revamp/dmg increase or whatever.
It's just not so. I know much people playing those characters and they play really good. Ending up with high dmg outputs.
You can say that it takes a quite high abc to reach a very efficient gameplay, that would be right. Once you get that high abc.. it's all up to you!
This is a commonly used argument which makes no sense at all. You know people that do high damage with those classes but what are you comparing? Someone who has a good fight vs someone who didn't? Someone who mastered their class vs someone who didn't? Mid gear vs Max gear? Just because a Lann or Lynn can get highest damage does not mean there is nothing wrong with the class and that they are balanced. To find balance you need to compare people with the same gear and skill level. DevCat is actually pretty terrible at balancing and there is a reason people keep gravitating towards certain classes during different periods of the game. Play a Lynn or Lann in Redeemers and you will know how balanced they are.
All the characters have good damage if you play them properly.
(by properly i mean learn cooldowns/attack rotation/when to attack and when to back off etc.. combat techniques for the character you're using basically.)
High abc makes the difference for sure but its not just that. There are people with high abc and still perform bad.
Character knowledge is what matters mostly, and you gain that with time and experience. I really don't think any character needs a revamp, maybe adjustments for some of them. Out of all the characters i'd say that hammer fiona is the one that could use some changes, probably.
99% the fionas i ever met in the past year or two were using longsword, wich makes me think that hammer is less convenient,weaker, not fun or just unpopular.
Same thing for large shield. (except in sea of reflection)
Not a fiona player here. Just stating what i see, it could be wrong.
Don't want to disrespect anybody here but i disagree with all of those that say lynn/lann/arisha need revamp/dmg increase or whatever.
It's just not so. I know much people playing those characters and they play really good. Ending up with high dmg outputs.
You can say that it takes a quite high abc to reach a very efficient gameplay, that would be right. Once you get that high abc.. it's all up to you!
This is a commonly used argument which makes no sense at all. You know people that do high damage with those classes but what are you comparing? Someone who has a good fight vs someone who didn't? Someone who mastered their class vs someone who didn't? Mid gear vs Max gear? Just because a Lann or Lynn can get highest damage does not mean there is nothing wrong with the class and that they are balanced. To find balance you need to compare people with the same gear and skill level. DevCat is actually pretty terrible at balancing and there is a reason people keep gravitating towards certain classes during different periods of the game. Play a Lynn or Lann in Redeemers and you will know how balanced they are.
Commonly used argument wich makes no sense at all? I don't think so.
There is no comparison to make. Each class has it's gameplay (be it slightly stronger or weaker than another class,doesnt matter much) and each player has
their own skill. Some can happen to be terrible at some character, so? we blame it on "low dmg" wich is not true at all?
There is people out there capable to make their characters work at full potential.
People like... Vladino or Fearmaster for example. A lynn and a lann(EU). They make their characters work and even carry hard.
In redeemers as well. It's indeed harder in there for these classes. They manage to do so good,so they are the living proof that everybody could.
As long as you have 2 hands and a brain.
Takes character's knowledge and skill and even good stats. (Good connection and fps too ofc). but there is the issue : skilful players. Something that i very rarely see in new players.
Most of players can't play lynn or lann? Lets go on forum and demand revamps!!!!! autism level 9k!! -.-'
About the gear, i think its totally normal that if you play with a low/mediocre gear the character can be hard to play. That's how it is supposed to be.
Would be pointless to gear up if you could do perfectly fine with low stats.
Better gameplay comes with own experience and stats growth.
You talk about "balance". As i said before, a few adjustments to some characters are needed probably, but i feel like people just want nexon to make characters easy af to play so that it would take no effort at all to get good results.
Still, even if that happens, things won't change. Nabs will stay nabs untill they start to understand their own mistakes.
It's so easy to always blame it all on devcat.
I may sound a bit cruel but it's just true.
I was a big noob too you know? Before neamhain's arrival i just used to play for mindless damage almost all time, cared not about using dodge/amber much, then when neam arrived i felt embarassed of myself because it was hard to keep up fighting and don't kiss the ground.
Deserved that shame tbh. It made me understand that i was just playing wrong and stupidly.
Should've made a post asking for evie's revamp/buffs/improvements? Oh wait. she's already too easy and has a good damage. i was just doing too bad.
I started to fight technically better and guess what? Even my damage results have improved. Evie is not comparable to lann or lynn in terms of difficulty you might say. That is 100% true, they are harder but not impossible to handle.
I just put my example, many players should seriously review their own skills and think twice before posting. Eventually they'll understand.
EDIT : In RISE update : "Lynn’s invulnerability time after using “Little Rat” has been increased."
there you get an adjustment. I bet that after the first period of popularity due to the second weapon, the only lynns we will see around
will still be the same old and devoted lynn players. Maybe a few more if the weapon ends up being actually cool. And people will still find something in her to cryout for.
I think the determining factor is that: when you "master" playing your character, certain classes get more bang for their buck in most areas: DPS, survivability, etc.
If you have gear and skill, obviously your going to outperform the more than average folk.
Given the different raid settings and player to player differences, it's tough to accurately gauge each character other than on paper.
Either way, it shows, multiple times over the course of the game, that certain classes outperform other ones in general.
Doesn't mean the player is bad or the character is bad. There's just something more optimal/efficient/better (?)
Commonly used argument wich makes no sense at all? I don't think so.
There is no comparison to make. Each class has it's gameplay (be it slightly stronger or weaker than another class,doesnt matter much) and each player has
their own skill. Some can happen to be terrible at some character, so? we blame it on "low dmg" wich is not true at all?
There is people out there capable to make their characters work at full potential.
People like... Vladino or Fearmaster for example. A lynn and a lann(EU). They make their characters work and even carry hard.
In redeemers as well. It's indeed harder in there for these classes. They manage to do so good,so they are the living proof that everybody could.
As long as you have 2 hands and a brain.
Takes character's knowledge and skill and even good stats. (Good connection and fps too ofc). but there is the issue : skilful players. Something that i very rarely see in new players.
Most of players can't play lynn or lann? Lets go on forum and demand revamps!!!!! autism level 9k!! -.-'
About the gear, i think its totally normal that if you play with a low/mediocre gear the character can be hard to play. That's how it is supposed to be.
Would be pointless to gear up if you could do perfectly fine with low stats.
Better gameplay comes with own experience and stats growth.
You talk about "balance". As i said before, a few adjustments to some characters are needed probably, but i feel like people just want nexon to make characters easy af to play so that it would take no effort at all to get good results.
Still, even if that happens, things won't change. Nabs will stay nabs untill they start to understand their own mistakes.
It's so easy to always blame it all on devcat.
I may sound a bit cruel but it's just true.
I was a big noob too you know? Before neamhain's arrival i just used to play for mindless damage almost all time, cared not about using dodge/amber much, then when neam arrived i felt embarassed of myself because it was hard to keep up fighting and don't kiss the ground.
Deserved that shame tbh. It made me understand that i was just playing wrong and stupidly.
Should've made a post asking for evie's revamp/buffs/improvements? Oh wait. she's already too easy and has a good damage. i was just doing too bad.
I started to fight technically better and guess what? Even my damage results have improved. Evie is not comparable to lann or lynn in terms of difficulty you might say. That is 100% true, they are harder but not impossible to handle.
I just put my example, many players should seriously review their own skills and think twice before posting. Eventually they'll understand.
EDIT : In RISE update : "Lynn’s invulnerability time after using “Little Rat” has been increased."
there you get an adjustment. I bet that after the first period of popularity due to the second weapon, the only lynns we will see around
will still be the same old and devoted lynn players. Maybe a few more if the weapon ends up being actually cool. And people will still find something in her to cryout for.
Edit 2 : typos.
Lynns and Lanns were fairly popular in KR and NA (not just on their releases) and now they arent played as much. So what your saying is that all of a sudden with little to no mechanical changes to those classes they all of a sudden became harder and people dont play them anymore?
Your saying a company like Devcat is doing a decent job at balancing when a class such as Evie is one of the top dps classes, best support class by far and above average defenses? Good balance is if one class is good at damage maybe they arent great at defense or have low support abilities. Maybe a class that has no range hits hard as they have more risk. However, In Vindictus, there are characters with low damage, support and defense and vice versa. Lanns and Lynns arent just the only ones, but are the most extreme. Why dont you see Pillar Karoks in Nea, but you see a bunch of Cestus Karoks? Ive seen people play sword Lanns for years and do much better in Nea in a week with spear lanns.
You can point out that X person is a good Lynn and Y person is a great Lann but if that same person had an equivalent Evie or Kai for example and mastered those classes they would be doing much better. They aren't better classes because they are easier they are just better classes. Them being easier is just an extra bonus in that I can slack off playing evie or kai and do terrible and still match a good run for a lynn/lann (assuming equally skilled/geared players).
I never claim to be the best player out there, but I clear Nea weekly on 4 different classes around mid-level gear and do around 15-20% dmg with 0.5 average deaths per fight so I think I can judge different classes well. But w/e just post on these forums assuming that anyone who asks for balance is just a noob or needs to get better. I guess we cant really expect any less from you when your opening comment is "shut the f*ck up".
Comments
Mind you. the below is what i noticed when they first came out or a few weeks later. or in general i just didn't keep them very long and i'm sure have been patched atleast slightly
Lynn when i first tried her out. had so many glitches it wasn't real.
Little Rat for example. even when i executed it Perfectly i still took damage.
Half the time my stacks. Zhen and regular wouldn't detonate. And very over all she just seemed very weak.
Her hit box also seemed rather small. which is just ridiculous. what with her having a Glaive and all
Sword Lann. needs a better dodge. thats about the only problem i had with him. didn't bother with spears
Never tried Karok. atleast not that i can recall
I tried out Kai. but not long enough to come to any conclusions. same with Hurk
I never really had a problem with Sword Fiona. at the time it was annoying because while i had seen others be able to. i was never able to block in time to negate damage and counter. probably due to a lack of SPD. but now with deflection there aren't any complaints there.
Hammer on the other hand. could use a rework. and Giant shield can really just be scrapped completely. i've only ever seen maybe one or two fionas with a large shield. all the others just use small. Shield enhancement/Deflection for LS. and Slashing High/Deflection/Taunt for Hammer is what i usually see
Only problem i've ever had with Arisha was the timing needed to execute Mana Drain. and her active SP skill Ruin Blade. But thats just because i'm horrible at timing. Although i've noticed in the past that alot of attacks seemingly bypass Mana drain. even when you land a perfect and thus i still took damage. even now. 2? years later it still happens sometimes.
Sylas. He mainly just needs a block of Some kind. i realize his main focus is usually long range. but still i've seen only a few Sylas's be able to survive for long. and the ones that cant usually die a horrible death and leave me cringing in my seat. making appropriate Ohh and Ouch noises. I've seen one be used as a frisby before. let it be known that Lord Glas doesn't like Sylas
I haven't bothered with Delia yet. though she seems to handle her own just fine. Some Delias i've come across are nothing more than glass cannons, others actually know when to pull out and when to attack.
Evie. I main Staff and haven't really found any problems. except for when my charge glitches and i cant move or turn at all till i get beat up by the boss. that's been a problem since i first started playing 4 years ago. but it's fairly uncommon. so i doubt it will ever be fixed. Also my ember will work 50/50 but i suspect that's more todo with my keyboard than anything else.
Scythe. i'm terrible at so i cant really give a explanation of possible problems. aside from running out of stamina stupidly fast. even with Insane reaper active.
As for Vella. i had problems with Cross cutting. and i never tried chainblades. though she got changed quite a bit from her revamp so i don't know if the problems with CC are still present or not.
-enjoying gameplay as it is now (hate fast attacking bosses when you can't even use 2nd smash)
-Lynn is mostly attack speed dependant with high attack speed you can have nice dmg (compared to arisha, and it was one of the best arisha I have ever seen, same stats we got around the same dmg [s3 dou ~50% 80/90/120 ABC]) but of course she isn't good against fast attacking bosses
-she isn't good for farming (slow movement speed, creeps don't give stamina)
-it's can difficult for beginners to do good dmg with her since you need to have all marks golden and know the boss patterns to choose best smash (also good def if you want to attack while getting hit to deal more dmg)
-many dodge bugs (with low fps and/or bad connection you will notice it more)
-windstep buf relies on connection (if you have delay you will get it after little rat so you can't jump in the initial little rat - causing loss of dmg and you can get hit after)
-hitboxes and range (as some1 said before) - small range (smaller than delia or valla/lann with fused swords) sometimes you hit the boss (you can even hear the sound of piercing/hitting) but no dmg or marks aply
-placing golden/enhanced marks relies on fps and connection (with low FPS/bad connection and high atckspeed it can even skip whole final smash)
-also noticed strange delay time of dodges sometimes
Conclusion:
Playing Lynn is very enjoyable if you have high attackspeed, good FPS and connection. She can be very strong if you master her (still can't solo neam as some chars can). I like her as she is now the only thing that could improve would be removing her bugs, give her some reasonable range/hitboxes (so when you hit the boss it would really hit him) and optimize the game (better FPS).
No need for Lynn revamp just fix the things that should be fixed
agree somewhat above. my arisha outdps most people in any raid i participate, especially in neam, where under equivalent gear, my arisha would only lose to another arisha.
On the other hand, only place delia shines is fking havan...nuking sandbags are no fun with repeated smashes over and over again.
I agree with Sef, Evie is a giant ball of mess because they packed too much into her. While she holds both the position of best healer and a top DPS class, her Alchemy is mostly useless now, and her leveling stages are incredibly clunky.
Then we're not talking skill then...in redeemers my Delia will out DPS a lann on equal terms. Arisha in neam is a monster if played correctly as I mentioned before. Any class played correctly will do great. Just comes down to player skill.
I was jkin bruh haha I was trying to make it an obvious joke... Lynn / Lann outdpsing Arisha? lol please that's impossible... if u know what you're doing atleast, I know Arisha is on the top 5 best DPS characters :P
I don't know from experience. I for one haven't even done neam more than 5 times... And never in my best equipment. (IE only done it with swords.) Arisha, fifi, Karoks all seemed equally OP there.
And yes any person that is a near perfect player against other folks that are just eh will do better if they all have similar gear.
Cestus Karok yes, pillar not so much. A good sword fiona and well Arisha is just Arisha in that raid haha but as I mentioned above, dazzler was making a joke about Arisha being low DPS(which I was not aware of). But if we're talking about a good Arisha like Tariro playing against a good lann like Aswolelobster, I'm sure Tariro would win. This is just going off of what I have seen from both respective players. It is an example.
No clue, since I only play on West. But from what I see the outcome will just come down to what raid it is in the long run if they are both good/have capped stats.
Anywho, on the main question. My statement is that all characters could use a tweak or two, but none really need a revamp. (Yes even poor Lynn doesn't need a revamp, she just needs to be given 50 or so more attspd for free ;-)
Agree with people up there about Lynn. Most I'd want to see is bug fixes and skill uncaps/small damage buffs. Knowing them, they'd probably make gold mark timing 2 seconds long and this would kill the Lynn.
Agree. I had used large shield for a few weeks in the beginning. It's only useful if you want more def (shield def + reducing iron defense's cd with PG's) and not being knocked back in heavy stander that is only good until S2, because S3 has the red attacks. It's a viable option but this playstyle is boring.
Also, it would be nice if hammer had Shield enhancement too. That's what i miss from my CA's. : ) Because Enhanced stigma (Slashing high + LLLRLR and even the Deflect + Stigma) takes more time to perform than Shield enhancement + CA + Amaranth kick thus making it difficult to use between the enemy's attacks. If they're step by step making the game more single-player based (referring to the 4-man raids) then every character should share the same difficulty for soloing.
(by properly i mean learn cooldowns/attack rotation/when to attack and when to back off etc.. combat techniques for the character you're using basically.)
High abc makes the difference for sure but its not just that. There are people with high abc and still perform bad.
Character knowledge is what matters mostly, and you gain that with time and experience. I really don't think any character needs a revamp, maybe adjustments for some of them. Out of all the characters i'd say that hammer fiona is the one that could use some changes, probably.
99% the fionas i ever met in the past year or two were using longsword, wich makes me think that hammer is less convenient,weaker, not fun or just unpopular.
Same thing for large shield. (except in sea of reflection)
Not a fiona player here. Just stating what i see, it could be wrong.
Don't want to disrespect anybody here but i disagree with all of those that say lynn/lann/arisha need revamp/dmg increase or whatever.
It's just not so. I know much people playing those characters and they play really good. Ending up with high dmg outputs.
You can say that it takes a quite high abc to reach a very efficient gameplay, that would be right. Once you get that high abc.. it's all up to you!
Karok currently is damn near perfect in terms of moveset and gameplay, he needs tweaks not a full blown revamp...
This is a commonly used argument which makes no sense at all. You know people that do high damage with those classes but what are you comparing? Someone who has a good fight vs someone who didn't? Someone who mastered their class vs someone who didn't? Mid gear vs Max gear? Just because a Lann or Lynn can get highest damage does not mean there is nothing wrong with the class and that they are balanced. To find balance you need to compare people with the same gear and skill level. DevCat is actually pretty terrible at balancing and there is a reason people keep gravitating towards certain classes during different periods of the game. Play a Lynn or Lann in Redeemers and you will know how balanced they are.
Commonly used argument wich makes no sense at all? I don't think so.
There is no comparison to make. Each class has it's gameplay (be it slightly stronger or weaker than another class,doesnt matter much) and each player has
their own skill. Some can happen to be terrible at some character, so? we blame it on "low dmg" wich is not true at all?
There is people out there capable to make their characters work at full potential.
People like... Vladino or Fearmaster for example. A lynn and a lann(EU). They make their characters work and even carry hard.
In redeemers as well. It's indeed harder in there for these classes. They manage to do so good,so they are the living proof that everybody could.
As long as you have 2 hands and a brain.
Takes character's knowledge and skill and even good stats. (Good connection and fps too ofc). but there is the issue : skilful players. Something that i very rarely see in new players.
Most of players can't play lynn or lann? Lets go on forum and demand revamps!!!!! autism level 9k!! -.-'
About the gear, i think its totally normal that if you play with a low/mediocre gear the character can be hard to play. That's how it is supposed to be.
Would be pointless to gear up if you could do perfectly fine with low stats.
Better gameplay comes with own experience and stats growth.
You talk about "balance". As i said before, a few adjustments to some characters are needed probably, but i feel like people just want nexon to make characters easy af to play so that it would take no effort at all to get good results.
Still, even if that happens, things won't change. Nabs will stay nabs untill they start to understand their own mistakes.
It's so easy to always blame it all on devcat.
I may sound a bit cruel but it's just true.
I was a big noob too you know? Before neamhain's arrival i just used to play for mindless damage almost all time, cared not about using dodge/amber much, then when neam arrived i felt embarassed of myself because it was hard to keep up fighting and don't kiss the ground.
Deserved that shame tbh. It made me understand that i was just playing wrong and stupidly.
Should've made a post asking for evie's revamp/buffs/improvements? Oh wait. she's already too easy and has a good damage. i was just doing too bad.
I started to fight technically better and guess what? Even my damage results have improved. Evie is not comparable to lann or lynn in terms of difficulty you might say. That is 100% true, they are harder but not impossible to handle.
I just put my example, many players should seriously review their own skills and think twice before posting. Eventually they'll understand.
EDIT : In RISE update : "Lynn’s invulnerability time after using “Little Rat” has been increased."
there you get an adjustment. I bet that after the first period of popularity due to the second weapon, the only lynns we will see around
will still be the same old and devoted lynn players. Maybe a few more if the weapon ends up being actually cool. And people will still find something in her to cryout for.
Edit 2 : typos.
If you have gear and skill, obviously your going to outperform the more than average folk.
Given the different raid settings and player to player differences, it's tough to accurately gauge each character other than on paper.
Either way, it shows, multiple times over the course of the game, that certain classes outperform other ones in general.
Doesn't mean the player is bad or the character is bad. There's just something more optimal/efficient/better (?)
Lynns and Lanns were fairly popular in KR and NA (not just on their releases) and now they arent played as much. So what your saying is that all of a sudden with little to no mechanical changes to those classes they all of a sudden became harder and people dont play them anymore?
Your saying a company like Devcat is doing a decent job at balancing when a class such as Evie is one of the top dps classes, best support class by far and above average defenses? Good balance is if one class is good at damage maybe they arent great at defense or have low support abilities. Maybe a class that has no range hits hard as they have more risk. However, In Vindictus, there are characters with low damage, support and defense and vice versa. Lanns and Lynns arent just the only ones, but are the most extreme. Why dont you see Pillar Karoks in Nea, but you see a bunch of Cestus Karoks? Ive seen people play sword Lanns for years and do much better in Nea in a week with spear lanns.
You can point out that X person is a good Lynn and Y person is a great Lann but if that same person had an equivalent Evie or Kai for example and mastered those classes they would be doing much better. They aren't better classes because they are easier they are just better classes. Them being easier is just an extra bonus in that I can slack off playing evie or kai and do terrible and still match a good run for a lynn/lann (assuming equally skilled/geared players).
I never claim to be the best player out there, but I clear Nea weekly on 4 different classes around mid-level gear and do around 15-20% dmg with 0.5 average deaths per fight so I think I can judge different classes well. But w/e just post on these forums assuming that anyone who asks for balance is just a noob or needs to get better. I guess we cant really expect any less from you when your opening comment is "shut the f*ck up".