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The RNG of this game is so incredibly enraging.

AzepaelAzepael
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in General Discussion
I know I'm beating a dead horse here, but whatever.

I've been playing off and on since beta, and I've always returned to this game because I just love the combat. With the Delia release I've been playing a lot more since she's so fun, so I've been actually putting some effort into getting some actual end game gear. I did all the events, farmed the gold, got the orange items, then tried enchanting with the runes I got from the events......

Failed. Every single time. Even with 95+ br. Just repeatedly failed, over and over again. Even spent a little money to get an extra attempt, just to fail again and exhaust my resources.

It's like all that time I spent grinding meant absolutely nothing. All that effort made pointless in 5 minutes time. It's incredibly discouraging to people like me who aren't at the end-game already. I'm reminded why I keep getting pushed away from this game.

/qq

Kommentare

  • pootismanpootisman
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    That's how they make money unfortunately. If you want the best you will have to put in money, which imho is very fair these days for a game that hands out 10-15 coupon/free scrolls twice a year.

    It sometimes pays to be patient if you can wait for exquisite rune events as they happen often as well.
  • SuhpremeSuhpreme
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    edited März 7, 2017
    just wait for the devs to nerf bosses into the ground and buff your character into the stratosphere, then you wont need min max endgame enchants and sht
    :)

    or wait till they announce and reveal your mains 2nd weapon and see whether its time to quit or not
    :)
  • MadcobraMadcobra
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    Brynn so evuuuul i agree . All you can do is purchase money for runes or wait for next free one from event . Sad and brutal truth
  • LavonneLavonne
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    Azepael wrote: »
    Failed. Every single time. Even with 95+ br. Just repeatedly failed, over and over again. Even spent a little money to get an extra attempt, just to fail again and exhaust my resources.

    Your problem is that you think 90+ Brynn = higher chance. It doesn't work that way. 90-100 Brynn is still 37-40%.

    Why do people still think that Brynn = success chance.
    DownIoad
  • AzepaelAzepael
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    Lavonne wrote: »
    Azepael wrote: »
    Failed. Every single time. Even with 95+ br. Just repeatedly failed, over and over again. Even spent a little money to get an extra attempt, just to fail again and exhaust my resources.

    Your problem is that you think 90+ Brynn = higher chance. It doesn't work that way. 90-100 Brynn is still 37-40%.

    Why do people still think that Brynn = success chance.
    I'm well aware of this, thanks for pointing out the obvious. It's not like it doesn't show this at the bottom of the screen.

    That still provides almost a coin flip's chance at succeeding. Which makes it really irritating when you fail 10 times in a row.

  • JynXiJynXi
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    edited März 8, 2017
    How many runes are we talking about?

    And remember, if you are smart enough:

    'If the item is so cheap (just orange main) that you can break it for way less than an enchant rune would cost you, then do so'

    (EU server here)
  • LanzarayusDragonLanzarayusDragon
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    The problem isn't Brynn or Ferghus. The problem is there's a claim of being an RNG when the "RNG" isn't luck based or even really there. In my opinion there isn't one since you can lose countless weapons while trying to enhance or enchant them. I lost 2 +13 great swords due to this. If there actually is an RNG then it's higher for some classes but lowest for the rest... So for there to be an RNG or this to even be luck based then most of the classes are actually just getting screwed.
  • RyanReynoldsRyanReynolds
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    The whole RNG theory was just a rumor created by user(s)... People who thinks they know better than everyone else. There's no official claims anywhere in their gaming website or official news about it. It's like this with any game, it provide challenges. It is like playing Sims with cheat codes, once you get everything you want, the game gets boring. I guess some of us handles challenges different than others.
  • 2edgy4u2edgy4u
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    humans tend to look for patterns and will make some up if there are none to be found. that said, vindi rng is very suspicious.
  • LavonneLavonne
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    There is some logic to the server-wide string theory tho.

    Back when we had the fortune\misfortune thread in EU some players have reported failing 16 times in a row and whatnot.

    Now 40% means that out of 10 attempts 6 would fail and 4 would succeed. Of course when you're dealing with such small number it can fluctuate like failing 8 times and succeeding only 2 or failing 5 times and succeeding 5 times. It won't be exactly 2:5 all the time. But failing 16 times in a row... Come on... That's not 40%... Some of the numbers players have reported just don't add up.

    I don't think it's that wild to believe there's a server-wide string of successes and fails coded in. It would definitely explain how players fail so many times in a row. Not to mention other Korean companies have been exposed for doing it, so clearly it's a thing over there, why wouldn't DevCat do it too?

    On the other hand, private server files have been released and there was no trace of any server-string code. But then again, the files were that of the dead Taiwanese server so maybe it's different in other servers.

    You never know these days. Get your tin foils hats on, the Earth is flat.

    Zupsero
  • LoLoBootyLoLoBooty
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    edited März 8, 2017
    Lolo's guide for dealing with the incredibly enraging RNG of this game


    1. Choose only 1 character at a time to focus on enhancement/enchants. All enhancement/enchant event items go to this character.

    2. Focus on your weapon first. It has the most impact. Above all if you can purchase the weapon you want you should do that. Otherwise, you will enhance your weapon in due time but first take a moment of reflection and decide what enhancement tier you realistically would like to settle in. I suggest settling into the lowest tier your willing to start in and graduate to higher tiers over time.

    • +1 - +9: Come on man! You're not ready yet for this guide. Stick with purple weps while you decide if you're serious or not.
    • +10 - +11: Welcome to the club.
    • +12 - +13: Stepping up your game.
    • +14 - +15: Shooting for the stars.

    3. Based on your tier you can now choose your enhancement strategy:

    • +10 - +11: The preferred approach is to use a 10-15 coupon on a full orange weapon that comes about twice a year during events. Most coupons will result in a +10 or +11. The backup approach is to enhance the weapon yourself until you get to +6 (Don't bother with runes. Durability should be increased before you start if your worried about that). From +7 to +10 you'll want to use saved up enhancement runes or enhancement coupons (+1 > +3) .
      Once you reach +10 the preferred approach to reach +11 is use a premium enhancement rune. The backup approach is YOLO and basically you have two chances to get there. Do not YOLO unless you have the AP to restore or a reasonable backup weapon or enough gold to start this step over again upon double boom.
    • +12 - +13: At this level the approach changes slightly. Here rather than starting with full OJ weps I start with OJ primary only weps. Especially if your going for +13 your probably going to boom a few weps before landing it. Therefore it may be more more cost effective to replace the shards after. The deciding factor is your rune situation. Follow the steps the +10-+11 guide to get weapons to +11. If possible use the (+10-+12 protection rune) to make at attempt to jump to +12. If you don't have any and are happy with a +12 then this is where you YOLO. The jump from +12 to +13 is always YOLO so realistically you will have a couple weapons ready to make the jump from +11. It really helps to have 20K+ AP stacked here. Restore and re-try weps before trying fresh ones which can always be resold.
    • +14 - +15: You really should buy from someone else at this tier. There is no super secret here. It either requires a lot of luck + gold + AP or a lot of alt accounts to get plenty of +10-15 coupons...

    4. Once you have your enhanced weapon you can begin enchanting it. First use any exquisite enchant runes, followed by premium enchant runes, followed by standard enchant runes.

    5. Now you can focus on armor. Again, always preferable to buy pre-enchanted armor. There just isn't enough free runes per year for 5 pieces. If you don't have that type of gold then you will need to try the slow build route. Always use full OJ here because the replacement shard cost is prohibitive. YOLO your first r7 scroll. Your runes will be used to protect the armor while putting the 2nd enchant on. I suggest starting with the chest/tunic since most people are good with master ES it makes it the easiest set piece to finish. If you want to keep making a progress I suggest trying to nail the first r7 on all 5 pieces first and then circling back around with runes saved over time.

    6. When your armor pieces are fully enchanted you can begin the enhancement process up to +10 using the steps described in the weapon section.

    7. Finally you can focus on infusions. And if you value your sanity and gold you will just buy them pre-made...




    2edgy4u
  • AzepaelAzepael
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    edited März 8, 2017
    LoLoBooty wrote: »
    Lolo's guide for dealing with the incredibly enraging RNG of this game


    1. Choose only 1 character at a time to focus on enhancement/enchants. All enhancement/enchant event items go to this character.

    2. Focus on your weapon first. It has the most impact. Take a moment of reflection to decide what enhancement tier you realistically would like to settle in:

    • +1 - +9. Come on man! You're not ready yet for this guide. Stick with purple weps while you decide if you're serious or not.
    • +10 - +11. OK welcome to the club.
    • +12 - +13. Stepping your game up.
    • +14 - +15. Shooting for the stars.

    3.
    I can at least say that I have an orange righteous judgement +11 bastard sword, so this failure isn't enough to make me rage quit.

    My problem is that this isn't really skill based. You farm and farm and farm and farm until you get a coin flips chance at succeeding, which at that point is just 100% luck. Has nothing to do with how much time and energy you put into it, just luck.

    I couldn't tell you how many times I failed and destroyed orange gloves trying to enchant them, because I'd rather not think about it. It's incredibly discouraging because it had nothing to do with lack of effort, and everything to do with luck not being on my side.
  • 2edgy4u2edgy4u
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    edited März 8, 2017
    Lavonne wrote: »
    There is some logic to the server-wide string theory tho.

    Back when we had the fortune\misfortune thread in EU some players have reported failing 16 times in a row and whatnot.

    Now 40% means that out of 10 attempts 6 would fail and 4 would succeed. Of course when you're dealing with such small number it can fluctuate like failing 8 times and succeeding only 2 or failing 5 times and succeeding 5 times. It won't be exactly 2:5 all the time. But failing 16 times in a row... Come on... That's not 40%... Some of the numbers players have reported just don't add up.

    I don't think it's that wild to believe there's a server-wide string of successes and fails coded in. It would definitely explain how players fail so many times in a row. Not to mention other Korean companies have been exposed for doing it, so clearly it's a thing over there, why wouldn't DevCat do it too?

    On the other hand, private server files have been released and there was no trace of any server-string code. But then again, the files were that of the dead Taiwanese server so maybe it's different in other servers.

    You never know these days. Get your tin foils hats on, the Earth is flat.

    coding in a higher chance of failing repeatedly would cause more players to keep trying due to gambler's fallacy and the phenomenon of going "on tilt" and therefore spend more money on runes. casino machines are known to be rigged to prey on human biases and tendencies, and we already know nexon is not above doing the same as seen in the way they misrepresent odds on bigby's wheel. (though to be fair, they have started telling us the odds for the drops in gachas and that's to be lauded insofar as it's honest)

    Azepael wrote: »
    LoLoBooty wrote: »
    Lolo's guide for dealing with the incredibly enraging RNG of this game


    1. Choose only 1 character at a time to focus on enhancement/enchants. All enhancement/enchant event items go to this character.

    2. Focus on your weapon first. It has the most impact. Take a moment of reflection to decide what enhancement tier you realistically would like to settle in:

    • +1 - +9. Come on man! You're not ready yet for this guide. Stick with purple weps while you decide if you're serious or not.
    • +10 - +11. OK welcome to the club.
    • +12 - +13. Stepping your game up.
    • +14 - +15. Shooting for the stars.

    3.
    I can at least say that I have an orange righteous judgement +11 bastard sword, so this failure isn't enough to make me rage quit.

    My problem is that this isn't really skill based. You farm and farm and farm and farm until you get a coin flips chance at succeeding, which at that point is just 100% luck. Has nothing to do with how much time and energy you put into it, just luck.

    I couldn't tell you how many times I failed and destroyed orange gloves trying to enchant them, because I'd rather not think about it. It's incredibly discouraging because it had nothing to do with lack of effort, and everything to do with luck not being on my side.

    a consistent progress system sounds better to players, but in order to balance out the rate that highly enhanced equipment accrues on the server, the progress would have to be very slow. it's either everyone getting the best possible equipment way too early (and the game having long droughts of activity between level cap increases), or the progress being so obviously tedious that most players just give up. the system of outright destroying equipment based on rng gives players the false hope of being able to get the best in a short time. i hypothesize that western players in general are more averse to gambling than eastern, and so this system is much less popular here.

    personally i don't need a +12 or higher weapon to enjoy the game. i'm happy just giving free event items to bring my alts up to +10 (or +11 lately with the generous giveouts of premium runes) to play with more variety. i'm also the sort to deliberately minimize exp gain in final fantasy and pokemon games to keep it challenging. so ymmv.
  • LoLoBootyLoLoBooty
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    edited März 8, 2017
    Azepael wrote: »

    I can at least say that I have an orange righteous judgement +11 bastard sword, so this failure isn't enough to make me rage quit.

    My problem is that this isn't really skill based. You farm and farm and farm and farm until you get a coin flips chance at succeeding, which at that point is just 100% luck. Has nothing to do with how much time and energy you put into it, just luck.

    LOL you replied faster then I could complete the body of my post.

    Anyways, I don't think anyone would disagree that the RNG system is not skilled-based. I myself have horror stories of trying to nail echoing/reinforced on my gloves. The steps I listed previously come from my experience of repeatedly failing to game the system randomly. House always wins.

    But I think that a lot of the frustration is when players feel like they are not making a progression. Players hinder their progression because their approach to enhancing/enchanting is completely unstructured. They attempt to enhance and enchant and infuse their weapon all at the same time and each is it's own counter and reset. Planning will limit your losses to RNG and make your vindy experience more rewarding.

  • HallyHally
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    A slow grindy option, in addition to the rng option would likely help deal with player frustrations. Gambling is not everyone's cup of tea, nor is grinding for hours on end. Enabling both options would likely result in less player complaints.

    Something like an enhance rune that will always +1 the item, but send it to the destroyed item box with no materials returned, with a cost of 250 bravery seals.. would give players who really grind an option to eventually progress.

    Personally, after failing 28 out of 28 attempts of getting a +12 90 to +13, I've thrown the towel.
  • RivaRiva
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    edited März 8, 2017
    Lavonne wrote: »
    There is some logic to the server-wide string theory tho.

    Back when we had the fortune\misfortune thread in EU some players have reported failing 16 times in a row and whatnot.

    Now 40% means that out of 10 attempts 6 would fail and 4 would succeed. Of course when you're dealing with such small number it can fluctuate like failing 8 times and succeeding only 2 or failing 5 times and succeeding 5 times. It won't be exactly 2:5 all the time. But failing 16 times in a row... Come on... That's not 40%... Some of the numbers players have reported just don't add up.

    It's 40% per enchant. If you think that you will succeed 4 out of 10 enchants just because that's the chance for an individual enchant then you might even deserve that fail.

    All you hear about failing streaks is because people complain about having a failing streak. What about people who enchant 6-7 things in one go without a rune and those who get to +14 in a single go without even failing once? We don't have stories about that because noone brags about being lucky.
    coding in a higher chance of failing repeatedly would cause more players to keep trying due to gambler's fallacy and the phenomenon of going "on tilt" and therefore spend more money on runes.

    Or it would cause them to give up and move to another game, because those who still play know that you don't get scrolled gear or a high enhance by failing every single thing ever.
  • hornywatermelonhornywatermelon
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    edited März 8, 2017
    Riva wrote: »
    Lavonne wrote: »
    coding in a higher chance of failing repeatedly would cause more players to keep trying due to gambler's fallacy and the phenomenon of going "on tilt" and therefore spend more money on runes.

    Or it would cause them to give up and move to another game, because those who still play know that you don't get scrolled gear or a high enhance by failing every single thing ever.

    But that's exactly what management currently believes is the way to go. And, apparently, it's doing pretty great in discouraging non MasterCard players from the game and keeping those who love shiny pixels earned through bruteforcing RNG with loads of $$$.
  • RivaRiva
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    edited März 8, 2017
    Riva wrote: »
    Lavonne wrote: »
    coding in a higher chance of failing repeatedly would cause more players to keep trying due to gambler's fallacy and the phenomenon of going "on tilt" and therefore spend more money on runes.

    Or it would cause them to give up and move to another game, because those who still play know that you don't get scrolled gear or a high enhance by failing every single thing ever.

    But that's exactly what management currently believes is the way to go. And, apparently, it's doing pretty great in discouraging non MasterCard players from the game and keeping those who love shiny pixels earned through bruteforcing RNG with loads of $$$.

    Sadly that's the way they intended it and I'm afraid noone can do anything about it, even in Korea. As much as paying real money for an enchant rune, which can still break if the scroll fails is disgusting, the only real thing we can do is be smart about it and use events and free gifts to our advantage. But since for them it has always worked to milk a few players why would they stop?
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
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    It's interesting when people point out how we get +10-15 coupons twice a year when for quite a while that wasn't the case. Since the Road to 85 this is only the second one we've gotten. Players including myself having been railing about how KR and the other Asian regions have gotten real Golden Time and we haven't for so long just to hear ourselves talk. For some reason EU even got an additional Golden Time that NA did not, but even they haven't gotten access to +10-15 coupons twice a year regularly since I've started playing. If we continue getting them twice a year then there's really not much to complain about, but don't give more credit than is due.

    As to the RNG, yep, it sucks, but Global has actually implemented some nice changes thanks to the current Nexon team. The scroll shop, the two Golden Chieftain events, and the updated seal shop as well as Airtight items being added to boxes and the off chance of getting runes from incineration has greatly lessened the need to risk all your gear on yolo attempts. It also means that players don't have to spend all their gold on single scrolls with only a 40% stick chance. Lastly, it's given more players the chance to enchant/enhance gear, which means more players can choose to simply sell their drops and earn gold over time to buy from players who have succeeded.

    If we continue actually getting the coupons multiple times per year and access to better runes throughout the year then the game will be in a much better place.

    One note to add to the information above about the best ways to enhance/enchant: I recommend yoloing the first scroll on armor and only having an OJ main in when you do so. Armor essences are relatively cheap now and not difficult to buy with seals either. No reason to use runes just to protect OJ pieces with no enchant stuck yet. Also no reason to yolo full OJ. Mat prices are also low and it's not that expensive to swap in OJ shards after enchanting first.
  • hornywatermelonhornywatermelon
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    The scroll shop,

    It should be a permament feature, not an event thing.
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