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Weapon ranges

Sans19Sans19
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edited December 18, 2016 in General Discussion
Are weapon ranges still a thing? I vaguely remember a patch removing them a while ago, but can't seem to find any info about it.

Maybe it was just for staff evie?
Someone help me out please. Are infinity twin swords still the king of reach or do they have the same range as toy swords now?

Comments

  • HyoranzoHyoranzo
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    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ctkyuEOwxwSNFSzPGJ1hjze0bdKoTOAvBZ3W5zfzSIA/htmlview?&sle=true#

    Saved this link a long time ago. It looks like newer classes don't have to worry about weapon ranges that much.
    Sans19BloodAngelGhengisJohnMissDeeds
  • Sans19Sans19
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    Hyoranzo
    Hyoranzo said:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1ctkyuEOwxwSNFSzPGJ1hjze0bdKoTOAvBZ3W5zfzSIA/htmlview?&sle=true#

    Saved this link a long time ago. It looks like newer classes don't have to worry about weapon ranges that much.
    Guess I was remembering the info about the newer characters.
    Thanks a lot. This was really helpful.

  • ArgazielArgaziel
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    Someone has range weapon dragonspine?
  • hornywatermelonhornywatermelon
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    That's some Master-tier necromancy skill you've got there.
  • ReziRezi
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    FYI Weapon length used to be a stat on equipment. Thing is, it still exists, it's just hidden - the taller your character is, the more boosted the range from the weapon's default, and every weapon of the same type (every dragonspine, etc) has the same default length now. The game used to take length/range very seriously, and precision was everything for characters like Lann and Fiona that had short weapons, so players had to choose between the attack speed stat or the weapon length stat on their weapons. Attack speed is still boosted by equipment, and as such there's no use in making a short character for their attack speed boost, so it's best to just make a tall character.
  • VladinoVladino
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    edited January 9, 2018
    Rezi wrote: »
    FYI Weapon length used to be a stat on equipment. Thing is, it still exists, it's just hidden - the taller your character is, the more boosted the range from the weapon's default, and every weapon of the same type (every dragonspine, etc) has the same default length now. The game used to take length/range very seriously, and precision was everything for characters like Lann and Fiona that had short weapons, so players had to choose between the attack speed stat or the weapon length stat on their weapons. Attack speed is still boosted by equipment, and as such there's no use in making a short character for their attack speed boost, so it's best to just make a tall character.

    So attack speed from equip doesn't stack with base attack speed or what do you mean?

    I've got trouble with weapon ranges and character height now (attacks misses at point blank range). Recently I've changed my weapon to dulla and it seems attacks miss less. Also got an info from a friend that after changing height to min -> attacks miss more (much more, so it became noticeable).

    I don't want to change the height of my char from minimum if I have other options or if I'm not 100% sure it will help.
  • RaijinnRaijinn
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    edited January 9, 2018
    It'll make less of a difference if you position properly. My Lann when I used to play him was max height, and I would use the poke from Thousand Needles with infinity swords fused on my weapon, to reach the glowing switch to control Bark's position a little easier. When I switched to minimum height, I didn't make it to the switch in time when I tried to poke it again. I believe it also has a small difference on your character's hit box as well, allowing some attacks to miss your character a little more easily, such as Lionotus' swipe, or Dullahan's side swing if you're beside him.
  • HeartCardHeartCard
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    Do not change the height of your character to maximum. Rezi is talking about nonsense. Your range really doesn't matter since this game is mostly about using reactionaries to avoid taking damage rather than spacing. So you can just smoosh yourself up against the boss. And considering the sheer massive size of some of the bosses...That's not hard to do.

    The actually boost to attack speed is pretty small. IIRC from season 1, the smallest character is equivalent to 10% faster than the tallest character. The tallest character, however, got about...I wanna say...20% more range?

    Ultimately, the more attack speed you have...The more freedom you have in a fight. A small change in attack speed can be the difference between safely landing an extra hit, or having to be hit to land that extra hit.

    Rezi is suggesting that BECAUSE you can get attack speed elsewhere, you should make your character as tall as possible. However...You'll rarely be able to make use of that additional range against...any boss really. So assume Tallest = +30% more range than smallest...How often are you [barely] hitting the boss as the smallest character? Probably not that often. Probably rarely. How often do you miss an attack unintentionally? Probably VERY VERY rarely unless it's from something occuring that range wouldn't solve(IE boss invuln/jumping away).

    In contrast to that, let's make two major underestimations about Smallest height:
    0 - For simplicity, let's say 1ATTSPD=+0.5% animation speed.
    1 - The smallest character is only 5% faster than the tallest character
    2 - This applies as an ATTSPD bonus rather than a base value. Ergo +100ATTSPD changes Tallest from (100%-> 150%) animation speed, while Shortest is changed from 105%->155% animation speed.
    C - Thus with +100ATTSPD, the smallest character only ends up around 3.3% faster than the tallest character(155:150)...But it's still faster. It still has less frames where you're not able to react to a situation. So if a move leaves you useless for 2 seconds after it's use, the smallest character is useless 0.07 seconds less than the tallest character.


    At a minimum, Smallest = Safest. Smallest can also equate to more damage as well, since it may be enough alongside your ATTSPD to land you that extra hit here or there. Range cannot do this, it can only compensate for you...uh...Using an attack too far away from the enemy. That's kinda...That's your fault. It's not really an advantage, it's just a bandaid for you screwing up your spacing. You can't [gain] from it, you can only [reduce losses] with it.



    Inversely though...Suppose my memory is right and the gap between smallest&tallest is actually 10% animation speed. Suppose also this applies as a base value rather than additive with attack speed. In that case, +100ATTSPD turns the tallest character from (100%->150%) and the smallest character from (110%->165%). Or in other words, 10% faster than tallest comparatively. 10% is a pretty massive boon.
    Suppose that the increase in range for tallest is not 30%, but 60%...Then nothing changes. It still only functions to cover your mistakes. You gain nothing from it, it simply reduces your mistakes.


    At a minimum, Smallest is beneficial while tallest is objectively not(zero'ing out a negative does not create a positive, it creates a null).
    Outside that minimum, Smallest is massively beneficial while tallest still gains you nothing.
    Sir_Render
  • CuraiHotaruCuraiHotaru
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    HeartCard wrote: »
    Do not change the height of your character to maximum. Rezi is talking about nonsense. Your range really doesn't matter since this game is mostly about using reactionaries to avoid taking damage rather than spacing. So you can just smoosh yourself up against the boss. And considering the sheer massive size of some of the bosses...That's not hard to do.

    The actually boost to attack speed is pretty small. IIRC from season 1, the smallest character is equivalent to 10% faster than the tallest character. The tallest character, however, got about...I wanna say...20% more range?

    Ultimately, the more attack speed you have...The more freedom you have in a fight. A small change in attack speed can be the difference between safely landing an extra hit, or having to be hit to land that extra hit.

    Rezi is suggesting that BECAUSE you can get attack speed elsewhere, you should make your character as tall as possible. However...You'll rarely be able to make use of that additional range against...any boss really. So assume Tallest = +30% more range than smallest...How often are you [barely] hitting the boss as the smallest character? Probably not that often. Probably rarely. How often do you miss an attack unintentionally? Probably VERY VERY rarely unless it's from something occuring that range wouldn't solve(IE boss invuln/jumping away).

    In contrast to that, let's make two major underestimations about Smallest height:
    0 - For simplicity, let's say 1ATTSPD=+0.5% animation speed.
    1 - The smallest character is only 5% faster than the tallest character
    2 - This applies as an ATTSPD bonus rather than a base value. Ergo +100ATTSPD changes Tallest from (100%-> 150%) animation speed, while Shortest is changed from 105%->155% animation speed.
    C - Thus with +100ATTSPD, the smallest character only ends up around 3.3% faster than the tallest character(155:150)...But it's still faster. It still has less frames where you're not able to react to a situation. So if a move leaves you useless for 2 seconds after it's use, the smallest character is useless 0.07 seconds less than the tallest character.


    At a minimum, Smallest = Safest. Smallest can also equate to more damage as well, since it may be enough alongside your ATTSPD to land you that extra hit here or there. Range cannot do this, it can only compensate for you...uh...Using an attack too far away from the enemy. That's kinda...That's your fault. It's not really an advantage, it's just a bandaid for you screwing up your spacing. You can't [gain] from it, you can only [reduce losses] with it.



    Inversely though...Suppose my memory is right and the gap between smallest&tallest is actually 10% animation speed. Suppose also this applies as a base value rather than additive with attack speed. In that case, +100ATTSPD turns the tallest character from (100%->150%) and the smallest character from (110%->165%). Or in other words, 10% faster than tallest comparatively. 10% is a pretty massive boon.
    Suppose that the increase in range for tallest is not 30%, but 60%...Then nothing changes. It still only functions to cover your mistakes. You gain nothing from it, it simply reduces your mistakes.


    At a minimum, Smallest is beneficial while tallest is objectively not(zero'ing out a negative does not create a positive, it creates a null).
    Outside that minimum, Smallest is massively beneficial while tallest still gains you nothing.

    In PvP Range>Speed

    Being tallest in PvP gains you massive advantage
  • Sir_RenderSir_Render
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    My take on it is more towards characters that naturally have Longer range like Delia or get more from proper spacing like Spear lann benefit more from being tall as it allows them to maximize their potential

    however characters who are more in your face orientated like Pillar Karok or Tiede Hurk get more from being smaller

    small shield Fiona is a strange character who actually benefits most from being somewhere inbetween due to her being too small will actually have her naturally dodge certain attacks in certain situations while she guards
  • HeartCardHeartCard
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    In PvP Range>Speed

    Being tallest in PvP gains you massive advantage
    ...I didn't realize people actually played Vindictus' PVP modes. Even a few weeks after they were first added...They were dead...They were super dead.
    They were so dead I still have all the pvp quests incomplete. Not a single match could be found.

    I mean...Yeah, if you're going to play Vindictus for PVP then...I guess?
    I...I'm genuinely curious, how often do you get a chance to PVP?


    Sir_Render wrote: »
    small shield Fiona is a strange character who actually benefits most from being somewhere inbetween due to her being too small will actually have her naturally dodge certain attacks in certain situations while she guards
    S3 Glas and that's pretty much it. I've always been minimum size Fiona since CBT.
    Even that mostly comes down to learning Glas' attacks and their hitboxes intimately, so you just have to git gud at it basically.

    It's really a memory problem if anything. If you're already used to using the tallest height...Then switching to the smallest height is going to make you pretty much garbage on any boss you've already fought. You'd have to relearn the boss from the ground up in regards to where his hitbox is, where your hitbox is, and how quickly your smash will land a hit.

    It's like being born left handed, but being forced to use your right hand to fit in. You know your left hand(smallest) is objectively better, but you're already used to using the crappier right hand.


  • VladinoVladino
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    Thanks for the advice.

    Well to add some info: I'm not talking about misses from distance (like when fighting Braha). My character is standing the closest she can (the closest texture enable) but still some part of my attack misses. For example yesterday I was fighting Havan standing right behind literally touching his right butt half -> my attack went in between his butt -> I've heard a piercing sound but no dmg was displayed (and no marks were placed -> I'm playing Lynn).

    I've reported this as a bug (here) and made 2 tickets (both were closed without a reply)

    So after changing weapons it seems the problem with "hitboxes" (or range or both) is less noticeable. I'm assuming that new weapon got better range or different hiboxes (I've noticed that aiming little left - weapon misses the boss but I'll get dmg and marks - would count as a hit with previous weapon)

    if I would be estimating numbers while fighting Lugh I've noticed about around 30% missed last smashes (that's quite huge dmg for lynn) while fighting echoaid or abomination it was less (would say about 10-15%). I won't count braha and niet but it would be nice if nexon did something about those unhittable parts of their hands/claws/tentacles (I'm not talking about belly).

    So if I still see some of my attacks being ignored should I take it that I have small range or is it bug?
  • HeartCardHeartCard
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    That sounds more like lag to be honest.
    There are also parts of a boss' model that are not part of the actual hitbox. This has always been true. Sometimes these parts act as if they have been hit depending on which part on which boss it is. This has been true since season1. People who used to spear Tyrant's eye should be familiar with the "eyelash spiderweb" bullshit of spears floating INFRONT Of his eye because they connected with the air around his eyebrow instead of his actual pupil.

    ...However...The important thing to note here is that a taller character should fix neither of these. Because it's not the range that's the problem. Either it's simply lag or it's simply you aiming for part of the hitbox that...Isn't real.
    So either it's your host's fault(or your fault for having bad internet) or it's your fault for honestly just not playing well enough and paying close enough attention to the hitboxes of the boss.
    Or it's not your fault at all(directly) and it's simply a bug involving Lynn's moveset. I stress directly because you could be unintentionally causing the bug by meeting certain conditions that will cause the bug.
    IE "This bug is from using weapon XYZ" or "This bug applies if the boss was recently hit by YXZ" or "This bug only occurs on Boss ZXY when it's doing move YZX"
    But the only way to check for that is for you to record what you're talking about and another lynn player to contest it.


    I'm not terribly familiar with Lynn, but in principle this should not be a range issue.
  • CuraiHotaruCuraiHotaru
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    edited January 9, 2018
    HeartCard wrote: »
    In PvP Range>Speed

    Being tallest in PvP gains you massive advantage
    ...I didn't realize people actually played Vindictus' PVP modes. Even a few weeks after they were first added...They were dead...They were super dead.
    They were so dead I still have all the pvp quests incomplete. Not a single match could be found.

    I mean...Yeah, if you're going to play Vindictus for PVP then...I guess?
    I...I'm genuinely curious, how often do you get a chance to PVP?


    Sir_Render wrote: »
    small shield Fiona is a strange character who actually benefits most from being somewhere inbetween due to her being too small will actually have her naturally dodge certain attacks in certain situations while she guards
    S3 Glas and that's pretty much it. I've always been minimum size Fiona since CBT.
    Even that mostly comes down to learning Glas' attacks and their hitboxes intimately, so you just have to git gud at it basically.

    It's really a memory problem if anything. If you're already used to using the tallest height...Then switching to the smallest height is going to make you pretty much garbage on any boss you've already fought. You'd have to relearn the boss from the ground up in regards to where his hitbox is, where your hitbox is, and how quickly your smash will land a hit.

    It's like being born left handed, but being forced to use your right hand to fit in. You know your left hand(smallest) is objectively better, but you're already used to using the crappier right hand.


    honestly when I played I alone had around 400arena wins per week, that was a year ago though, and FM about a dozen of times during the weekends

    And I still have contact with a few friends who play, and they PvP regularly, wasn't really open to public, we were a group of 15-25ppl who were about equally skilled and we fought eachother, as new players weren't really into PvP as they got smashed easily and the left to never come back
  • ReziRezi
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    edited January 9, 2018
    Vladino wrote: »
    Rezi is suggesting that BECAUSE you can get attack speed elsewhere, you should make your character as tall as possible. However...You'll rarely be able to make use of that additional range against...any boss really. So assume Tallest = +30% more range than smallest...How often are you [barely] hitting the boss as the smallest character? Probably not that often. Probably rarely. How often do you miss an attack unintentionally? Probably VERY VERY rarely unless it's from something occuring that range wouldn't solve(IE boss invuln/jumping away).

    In contrast to that, let's make two major underestimations about Smallest height:
    0 - For simplicity, let's say 1ATTSPD=+0.5% animation speed.
    1 - The smallest character is only 5% faster than the tallest character
    2 - This applies as an ATTSPD bonus rather than a base value. Ergo +100ATTSPD changes Tallest from (100%-> 150%) animation speed, while Shortest is changed from 105%->155% animation speed.
    C - Thus with +100ATTSPD, the smallest character only ends up around 3.3% faster than the tallest character(155:150)...But it's still faster. It still has less frames where you're not able to react to a situation. So if a move leaves you useless for 2 seconds after it's use, the smallest character is useless 0.07 seconds less than the tallest character.


    At a minimum, Smallest = Safest. Smallest can also equate to more damage as well, since it may be enough alongside your ATTSPD to land you that extra hit here or there. Range cannot do this, it can only compensate for you...uh...Using an attack too far away from the enemy. That's kinda...That's your fault. It's not really an advantage, it's just a bandaid for you screwing up your spacing. You can't [gain] from it, you can only [reduce losses] with it.

    Right, I forgot to mention that height also increase the hitbox. And I was saying that since equipment gives attack speed but not attack range, you can't use equipment to give you lacking range even though it does give you more speed, so I was saying that there's more use in being taller than smaller.

    But you're right about hitbox - the smaller you are, the smaller the hitbox. I guess whether more range is worth the hitbox is subjective; not just for each player, but each character.


    Being used to this game already, I got a short Delia and a tall Miri.

    I figured Delia's bad speed curve mattered more than her long weapon, so I chose to give her speed instead of range. But since she constantly blocks, I had little use for decreasing her hitbox, so I didn't even care about that.

    On the other hand, my Miri's weapon has amazing range already that I felt would be greatly affected by being taller, while her speed curve was fine enough to not need a handicap. In this case too I didn't care about her hitbox.

    In other words, I normally don't consider the hitbox. If you dodge, you're immune - this is now the case for all characters, so I see less of any issue with the hitbox difference.

    Newbies might get a use out of the hitbox difference, but I don't think veterans have to worry about it.
  • HeartCardHeartCard
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    Rezi wrote: »
    Newbies might get a use out of the hitbox difference, but I don't think veterans have to worry about it.
    Which is basically my arguement for why Tallest is useless, it just changes the hitbox&hurtboxes. However, a veteran player should be familiar enough with both the boss and their character that this is entirely irrelevant. In which case, the small boost in SPD at a minimum means less downtime and vulnerability.

    There's QUITE a few bosses where an extra +10~+15ATTSPD on my SS Fiona is enough to allow the second counterattack hit without having to be hit myself during some bosses' combos. Succ Queen&Neahmean Lion being the biggest cases when going from around 40ATTSPD to 55ATTSPD.
    Or instead of a second counter it, the extra spd may be enough to allow both the 2nd counter hit AND a perfect amaranth without letting myself get hit. <---This gap is normally crossed by using Slashing High/Shield Charge though, which is much more significant than merely 15ATTSPD.


    My point being that a veteran who is accustomed to the boss and their character gains nothing from tall range. It can only mitigate their losses, not provide any boon. Smallest's attack speed advantage, however, is purely an advantage that may allow additional hits to land that weren't possible even with proper spacing&planning&knowledge of the boss.

  • HallyHally
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    If I remember correctly, compared to a character of medium height, the shortest character get effectively 6 additional speed (just 3% faster), while tallest character get 6 less speed (just 3% slower).

    The difference in attack range is largely insignificant for PvE content. The most notable difference is probably hitting braha's belly for characters with super short range like arisha or lann. You'll fail to hit braha a lot more frequently at min height than max.

    PvP, other than being dead content most of the time.. is horribly inbalanced, as the game is not designed with PvP in mind. If you really want to PvP that badly, go ahead; but for the vast majority of players, doing something PvP specific is irrelevant.