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I'm relatively new to the game, so I was hoping someone could point me in the right direction in figuring out the PVP power ranks.
Comments
This is all to my current knowledge/impressions, it should be reasonably accurate.
You really can't go wrong with Kai (both weapons) and Cestus Karok, both are extremely good. Spear Lann and Hurk(?) are also very good. I'm not sure about any of the new characters unfortunately, I was told Arisha was/is top 4.
Scythe Evie, Fiona and Pillar Karok are weak against good players. Staff Evie is hard to manage. Sword Lann is mediocre.
If you are only really interested in the official PvP methods, then I suggest playing Kai as both his weapons are very viable in PvP. He is not as difficult to gear as some of the other characters and if you ever get into Boat PvP he is very fun there too.
There is not much PvP going on nowadays though, maybe once we get the 3v3 tournament update if it ever arrives. Vindictus is primarily PvE and there is rarely good PvP to be had.
+best
Ign Arrow95 :East
I do have a Okay Geared Kai on West
1. Cestus Karok
2. Arisha
3. Spear Lann
4. Hurk
5. X-Gun Kai
6. Sword Fiona
7. Pillar Karok
8. Sword Lann
9. Chain Vella
10. Scythe Evie
11. Bow Kai
12. Hammer Fiona
13. Sylas
14. Lynn
15. Staff Evie
16. Sword Vella
Not entirely sure where to put Delia. Haven't really done any PvP in a long while so I don't know. PvP playerbase died so I kinda left that too.
DO NOT take this list seriously. It really depends on the person playing the character and other people may have different opinions about ranking the characters. This list is just what I think to be completely honest. This list is also mainly for Deathmatch so it'll obviously change around depending on the mode(Siege, Deathmatch, Boat PvP, Arena).
I can't do it for a few days though since I'm out of town from work. But I would love to duel you. Slake my lust for pvp.
[QUOTE=ThePharaoh]: >D3MONSLAY3R > everyone else +best
[QUOTE=Arrow95]: >My Motto in Game is "Still Looking for a Challenge" If Anyone wants a go am game
Ign Arrow95 :Eas
...
Bish please... xD
http://i.imgur.com/2I1fJBI.jpg
I would rek ya all if we'd have a chance to play without lags... and no Arrow, after merge hits it doesn't matter, because our locations won't change - which means lags. If you'd want to play competitively and fair - someone from EU would have to come to NA, or someone from NA would have to come to EU for holidays or something xD... because otherwise one side will be in huge disadvantage of 300 ping f.e. (depending on which server you'd play) which is pretty much unplayable for Vindictus PvP.
(2)
Dungeon PvP is skill-less. There is no point to even talk in terms of 'power ranks' or whatever if it's about dungeon PvP. There is no counter system whatsoever, normal attacks knock down opponent and invulnerability works as in PvE (generally everything works like in PvE, which just doesn't work - you may as well just perma knock someone), etc. etc. Dungeon PvP is just attack spam basically - no thinking at all.
(3)
If it's about power ranks for Arena (1v1) - it is more complicated.
In general, basically any character can win against any (tho, the characters without 'grab' ability can't counter dodge - which means that if opponent will spam dodge against them, there isn't really much what they can do... tho that depends on situation as well).
Enormous factor in Vindictus Arena PvP - is personal design. Vindictus combat offers huge freedom of movement and tiny adjustments of abilities (which make huge difference). So you can have 2 exactly the same characters, but 2 different players on each - one will be able to do something, and the other won't.
Some characters are easy to control, some are more complicated.
Some have little possible combinations, some have more.
Some characters are way too OP, some way too weak.
To make good power rank, you'd have to separate it on 2 factors:
1. Personal skill vs Effectiveness (it would look like something in this graph - open link below):
http://i.imgur.com/GaUHaZ2.png
Some characters are already pretty strong even if you aren't really good (like Karok Pillar/Cestus/Hurk for example), and some require much more advanced player to make something out of it, but they can be also very strong (Lynn for example). Some characters will be pretty weak in both cases as well. It all depends on how good you are - and how good is someone you play against.
2. Interactions between characters.
It also depends which character plays against which. Because for example, one character can be good against second, however that second can be good against the third, however the third can be good against that first one. There isn't really any 'straight line' which you could draw according to which characters are the strongest.
However in general, you can notice those which are way too OP (nevertheless - it won't be always accurate). It also depends on who do you ask, because it's quite subjective. Most of people will always think that their main character 'isn't the most OP', and that other characters are way too strong. Most of people are bad at self-criticism and often favour their own EGO rather than what's truth. Most of them don't even have proper knowledge to make any accurate statement/judgement (but they will do so anyway).
So my personal advice - don't listen to these bullcrap opinions, and simply try to improve yourself as much as you can against all characters - because there is always a room for improvement. However if for some reason you'd like to know my own subjective opinion about characters rank in general (again - it won't be accurate in every situation), here it is:
Tier 1 (most OP - most 'brainless'):
Karok (both weapons), Hurk
Tier 2:
Fiona (all weapons), Arisha, Kai (both weapons), Lann (both weapons)
Tier 3:
Lynn, Evie (both weapons), Sylas, Vella (both weapons), Delia
My ranking is based on gameplay, where people don't abuse each other by attacking right after knock when someone stands up (there is no way to defend from it, so it's considered abuse... at least by those more advanced/knowledgeable players).
I personally can defeat most of the time any character with any character (assuming we play on equal stats - equipment), and there is still a lot of room for improvement left to me i think. It all depends on opposite player tho, for now i didn't find anyone who could surpass me, however i've meet some people who give me quite a challenge (f.e. @KuraiHotaru who posted in this thread as well).
And yes, i know it reads like i would be some EGO-maniac who thinks he's the best and that's all, but i assure you that's not it. I am very capable of admitting to mistakes when someone proves me wrong - because admitting the mistake is the first step towards improvement. However i'm also not much influenced by peer pressure and i care mostly about truth. So as much as i'm capable to admit my own mistakes, i'm not afraid to say that i'm pretty damn good as well - as long as it's truth according to my experience.
Point is - you can be good with all those characters.
About the lag it would be nice if all the Servers could come together without any lag, Pvp wouldn't be so dead then.
No, no...
[QUOTE=Arrow95]About the lag it would be nice if all the Servers could come together without any lag, Pvp wouldn't be so dead then.[/QUOTE]
Merging servers which are far away from each other without lags won't be ever possible, unless scientists master quantum teleportation (entanglement of particles) somewhere in the future
If it's about 'PvP being dead', we don't have to merge servers to increase population. The issue with population in Vindictus PvP is mostly due to terrible matching system, equipment depending and lack of any description of PvP mechanics whatsoever. Many people (who complain on Vindictus PvP) will tell you stuff like 'it's not balanced' or whatever... and even tho i don't say that it is balanced, i disagree with the notion that it's the cause of this PvP being inactive.
All MMO RPG games are unbalanced. There is no single balanced PvP on the market
Right now when you enter Arena PvP, you have 4 rooms, and you have to join one of them to play. The person who wins stays in the room, which means that it will be strongest (most effective) players who will keep playing all the time, and everyone else must wait in the queue and join them to play. This means that if you're not 'the best', so especially if you're new or with low equipment... you will keep losing all the time. People care about their EGO more than they admit, and not many of them are enough persistent to sustain this chain of lost games and not get discouraged in the process.
To fix that - we need ranking system. Not for the points, medals or whatever... but for matching players according to their effectiveness. With ranking system, if you lose the match - you lose points, if you win match - you gain points. In this way, the game can assess in general 'how strong someone is' and match that player with another player who has similar points. This would mean that for example newbies would play with newbies, and pros would play with pros. Other words everyone would have around 50/50 chance to win in their fights, so everyone could win some fights from time to time - which means that players wouldn't get discouraged that often = more population.
Second thing - equipment depending. I won't talk much about this in here, since it's pretty obvious why it's wrong in PvP (i guess), but if you want you can watch my video, where i basically explain this as well:
Simply put, it makes players lose even tho they shouldn't (because stats don't mean anything), and for many it's a barrier that makes PvP unplayable to them if they have too low equipment and can't get better one due to 'money' issues. So yeah, by having equipment depending in PvP - we lose many players who would join otherwise.
Third - lack of description about PvP mechanics/skills. If you don't know how 'the game' works, if you don't know what you're doing - you can't actually play it... it's simple as that. Btw. this is the reason which encouraged me to make YT channel for PvP Guide, to help people learn (i hope it will have some impact and help people to enjoy this PvP more... it's the least i can do).
So yeah, ^these are the 3 main reasons why Vindictus PvP struggles with population. I could mention other things as well, but they are less relevant, and for the matter of this forum topic, not worth mentioning (also i'm very sleepy, so i want to finish this post already xD). So... good night
"(2)
Dungeon PvP is skill-less. There is no point to even talk in terms of 'power ranks' or whatever if it's about dungeon PvP. There is no counter system whatsoever, normal attacks knock down opponent and invulnerability works as in PvE (generally everything works like in PvE, which just doesn't work - you may as well just perma knock someone), etc. etc. Dungeon PvP is just attack spam basically - no thinking at all."
This is the most uninformed post I have ever seen. I don't know if I even want to respond. Fight anyone good in boat pvp and you would get destroyed, good luck attack spamming them. The counter system is dodge/get good, something that you don't have to do with your stats evidently. There were PvP tournaments on NA West that are on youtube that demonstrate this and the player that won the 1st PvP Tourney came 2nd in the next one. I can list the very best of the best in boat pvp and all of them were carried by their skill, something you can hardly say about arena where stats and character are really all that matters, good luck as many character matchups are borderline unwinnable and many stat matchups are borderline unwinnable (someone with huge stats has a massive advantage in arena, meanwhile it is balanced in boat pvp.)
In fact the best spear lann on West (Formation) would dodge my hollow shot with spear lann's dodge 99% of the time, this was back when the dodge was 0.3 seconds of invulnerability. Bow kai also uses longbow only in the vast majority of boat pvp which requires much more skill and is much more engaging than shortbow is.
@Arrow95 "If your on West I wouldn't mind to see what you're made of, sorry if you thought my motto was egotistical but I havnt had a good challenage in a long time
About the lag it would be nice if all the Servers could come together without any lag, Pvp wouldn't be so dead then. "
Yes I am on west, feel free to add me - "Sylerius" is my Kai, I would love to duel you. And nah don't worry about the motto lol I don't mind. If you are good at boat pvp/enjoy it though I am sure I will be able to put up a good show.
I don't have to play a lot of dungeon PvP to understand its mechanics, especially that those mechanics are exactly the same as in PvE combat. To make my point more clear, i will explain exactly what i mean - with reason and actual argumentation in details to what i say
1. In dungeon PvP (same as in PvE combat) your dodge is limited by specified time, no matter of animation length. The reason it's wrong for PvP is simple. This system was designed for PvE combat, where all boss attacks are basically 100% predictable due to pre-attack animation, and the fact that all of these moves are programmed to work that way. When you play PvE, you learn boss pre-attack animations and practice the timing of your dodge, so whenever you see some animation - you know what is going to happen in f.e. 1 second, and you know exactly with precise timing when will the hit happen, so you can dodge all of them as long as you perform your dodge with perfect timing.
Now in PvP you play against another PERSON, who isn't programmed in any way, and doesn't perform any pre-attack animations in purpose to help you indicate in advance what will happen in a moment so you could time your dodge perfectly at that timing. Your opponent can use some attack a little earlier or with delay, or he may not use it at all, cancel it and use some other move. Another thing is that your opponent can simply spam attacks very fast one after another... however you can not lengthen your invulnerability on dodge in such scenario (even if you could predict it).
Let's say you predicted an attack at proper timing and you use dodge, but you get hit right after with another attack before you can make any other action because your character has to finish dodge animation first (especially if you have lower speed attack, which means that your animations are longer - which leaves you vulnerable for a longer period). Other words YOU SUCCEEDED PREDICTION - BUT YOU STILL GET HIT simply because you're unable to follow with any other action when necessary... does it make any sense? Nope.
^This in itself is already enough reason to see why it just doesn't work and isn't really skill-based... because no matter of your successful prediction and performing proper action - you may still get hit. Add to that the fact that you can easily perma-knock someone once you knocked him down by attacking him all the time with some fast attack whenever he tries to stand up... especially that in dungeon PvP normal attacks knock opponent down.
But let's go further. Low stamina usage, OP healing effects, etc. etc. a lot of stuff that was designed for PvE gameplay specifically, based on interaction with programmed boss (limited by its design and fully predictable). Things like this simply do not work properly in terms of PvP, because these mechanics weren't designed for it.
Low stamina usage allows for much easier brainless spamming, because you're very unlikely to run out of it... or as Hurk, let's look at his Transcendent skill which allows him to use his HP as stamina - which in dungeon PvP (PvE mechanics) basically doesn't take any relevant amount of HP... other words he has limitless stamina. Or his dodge absorption length, opposite to most of other characters is very long (around 0.7 on first dodge, and lengthen to above 1 sec if he uses charge+blockade)... combined with possibility to cancel one dodge with another almost immediately, long before his absorption ends - he can basically spam it and absorb damage all the time (again - something which most other characters don't have). Additionally he can heal himself from Revenge stacks, which outperforms the damage he receives on dodge absorption by a lot (if he has high WILL value), not mentioning the damage from his smash attacks combined with Revenge buff, and ability to easily exchange those powerful smashes with dodge all the time just by clicking 2 freaking buttons.
I could keep going, but there is no reason for it. My point is very clear i believe (tho you probably will keep denying it anyway). In general as mentioned before - these mechanics aren't adjusted towards PvP interactions AT ALL. They work properly only in PvE interactions with 100% predictable moves of programmed bosses, where it's about practice of timing and not prediction of moves (which is the main part of PvP systems).
On the opposite side in Arena PvP, you have totally different system.
1. Dodge invulnerability time is equal to its animation - which means that YOU CAN ACTUALLY DODGE AN ATTACK WHEN YOU CLICK DODGE, no matter if opponent is brainlessly spamming or not, because in any situation you're capable to respond with next action which is necessary right after.
2. Spamming invulnerability being an issue? No problem, just use grab to counter invulnerability which will put opponent into exhaust state and follow with smash to deal damage (issue being that not all characters have grab available... tho i've never said that the system is 100% perfect, just the basic design is really good).
3. Issue with someone grabbing you? No problem, just use smash to counter his grab - whenever you're in smash animation you're invulnerable to grab exhaust... and at the same time you will most probably hit an opponent and deal damage to him.
4. And back to square one - avoiding smash (attacks), which you counter by using dodge.
Here is a little graph showing this counter loop system (it's sort of like rock/paper/scissors):
http://i.imgur.com/W5VBA9H.png
5. Increased stamina usage - which makes brainless spamming abilities less effective, and makes moves performed with purpose and thought more meaningful and effective (because when you have less possible 'trials' - you need to use them 'with brain' and accordingly to situation).
6. Removed effects/abilities which just do not work properly with PvP interactions, for example healing from revenge buff... or shields from evie, etc. (i could make the whole list, but it isn't necessary).
7. Limited Arena space with spikes to force players to think about their positioning more, which limits their possibilities to run forever and ever.
8. Time limitation to put bigger pressure on interactions and force players to play more offensively rather than just 'wait for an occasion'.
9. Etc. etc.
Continuation in next post (cuz too many characters)...
[QUOTE=Sylarius] This is the most uninformed post I have ever seen. I don't know if I even want to respond. Fight anyone good in boat pvp and you would get destroyed, good luck attack spamming them. The counter system is dodge/get good, something that you don't have to do with your stats evidently. [/QUOTE]
I've started to play Vindictus in second half of December 2013, and i've joined first PvP around 1-2 months later (there was no Arena back then yet so i was mainly playing Free Match). Back then i've played with stats like 10k ATT and 2k DEF, practically no speed, crit, HP or anything... while other players had above 20k ATT, 10k DEF, high speed, crit, etc. I would lose most of the time, but i would keep trying because i didn't expect the game to give me a win just by the right of my existence. I know it takes effort and time to learn and get good at something and i'm not one of those people who surrender easily just because something hurts my EGO.
I haven't spent a single peny on this game, and i've decided to build gear from PvP seal shop instead of PvE - simply because i couldn't afford myself on PvE gear. Nevertheless i've spent tons of time on farming PvE just to get the gold necessary. There was a period of time, when i was farming Colhen in Flames for approx. 10 hours daily, every day for 2 months in purpose to gather more gold - and at the end i've spent most of this gold on avatar items
When Arena PvP was released, i was still playing with minimum stats which were provided by Arena system. I was losing most of the time (mostly due to equipment difference), but i didn't get discouraged and i was improving my knowledge and personal skills. Meanwhile when i was slowly getting better and better stats, i would practice and test every single character in Arena in details. I've made literally all characters at least on 40 lvl (so i could join Arena) and i would ask friends to join me in purpose to test their skills. I would test every single ability in every possible scenario/interaction that i could come up with - in purpose to understand how it works in details.
With time i would start winning more and more, and at some point when i've gathered a bit better stats (which weren't even close to end game builds that other people had... it was +10 PvP 80 lvl weapon with leo/valor, PvP not enhanced armor and PvP not enhanced accessories, no infusions or anything special) - there was literally no one at that point who could've stand against me. My rate of wins versus lost games was probably something like 200:1 (200 wins per 1 lost game). Many people didn't even want to join my room because they didn't even expect to have any chance against me (happens to this day
So yeah... this is my story of how it all started (said it just in case you thought you know everything about me...) - and it definitely isn't stats/equipment that made or makes me win now in PvP. I've started from point 0, slowly improving until i've became who i am now. I personally hate equipment depending and i wish it didn't exist in PvP, and whenever there is occasion, if someone wants to play with me without stats differences - i'm happy to dress off and play with 0 lvl weapon against each other.
Right now whenever i see someone who struggles, or is interested in PvP in general - i share with all the information i've gathered to help them learn this PvP system, because i know how much it takes to discover all of it just by yourself, and i know that not everybody can afford to spend as much time and effort on it as i did. I propose to people that i can teach them if they would like to know more, or sometimes i'm recommended by my friends and people reach to me by themselves and ask for help. I'm happy to see it, because i think that Vindictus PvP is a really nice system despite its many flaws... and i just wouldn't like to see it drawn under this 'sea' of misinformation that is being spread by people without any proper knowledge whatsoever, that just spread hatred around towards this system.
Just yesterday when i was teaching one another person, it felt kind of funny when he told me that he makes notes of all this
I have also a friend Andrej - IGN: DualStab (and not just him because there are more people who do this, but him in particular because he does it more actively :P) who shares with the knowledge i gave him to other people as well. That also made me happy, because it's really hard to teach enough people just by myself to keep this PvP system alive, and so i appreciate his contribution towards this goal ^^.
[QUOTE=KuraiHotaru] This is probably gonna sound like a** licking, but @DesireOfMine is probably the most knowledgeable person about PvP in the game world wide with more than 25k total arena wins (do the math regarding time invested yourself) and many many hours invested in deducting mechanics and information about the PvP in itself [/QUOTE]
Actually it's above 28,000+ right now +cold... and thanks +shy.
28k wins is just crazy
Boat pvp has more limitations but is more precise and less lenient than arena is, fact. Arena is significantly more laggy than boat pvp. Someone can be good at arena and bad at boat pvp, and someone can be good at boat pvp and bad at arena. Or someone can be good at both. However trashing one and calling it "skill-less" when you have solely played the other is not justified imho. I would love to duel you in boat pvp as the same character (barring chainblades). I am happy to admit that I am not as skilled with arena as I am in boat pvp, though I have tried it many times as my server migrated to it, and could never totally get into it. However you are definitely blindly stating opinions that you haven't actually tested and are just assuming.
Like, please re-read your post again:
"Now in PvP you play against another PERSON, who isn't programmed in any way, and doesn't perform any pre-attack animations in purpose to help you indicate in advance what will happen in a moment so you could time your dodge perfectly at that timing. Your opponent can use some attack a little earlier or with delay, or he may not use it at all, cancel it and use some other move. Another thing is that your opponent can simply spam attacks very fast one after another... however you can not lengthen your invulnerability on dodge in such scenario (even if you could predict it).
Let's say you predicted an attack at proper timing and you use dodge, but you get hit right after with another attack before you can make any other action because your character has to finish dodge animation first (especially if you have lower speed attack, which means that your animations are longer - which leaves you vulnerable for a longer period). Other words YOU SUCCEEDED PREDICTION - BUT YOU STILL GET HIT simply because you're unable to follow with any other action when necessary... does it make any sense? Nope."
There are a very low amount of characters than can cancel their moves into separate instant moves - no character has an instant attack (besides like... hurk shoulder bump, barely, and spear lann dodge which is a matter of poor spacing if you are hit by.) Even karok needs to smash or weave before he can blast. Name me any character that can spam attacks very fast that it goes through dodge because besides chainblades... there isn't one (all characters can get away from spear lann, and bow kai uses longbow in the vast majority of duels).
Attack speed doesn't affect dodge animations in boat pvp unless it's slashing high (which is banned), 99% sure.
"You succeeded prediction but you still get hit" is simply in no case true, I listed above my post that Formation the best spear lann on West would dodge my hollow shot 90%+ of the time with his 0.3 second dodge, no matter how much I tried to trick him with it. And any character can play with this extreme precision, there are simply no attacks that do what you are describing (besides chainblades, again...)
Knockdown locking isn't a thing in boat pvp, I have not once seen it happen after someone gets knocked down. Maybe they get hit upon standing up if they roll in the wrong direction but they aren't locked any further because of 1) standing endurance 2) no character has an infinite stunlock into death combo. Meanwhile camping recovery frames in arena IS DEFINITELY A THING and at least on West is known as recovery camping, where timing your attacks properly will always hit your opponent in their recovery frames due to poor latency (please also see: infinite juggling)
Low stamina usage in boat pvp resulting in attack spam is simply untrue, there is plenty of room to outspace attack spam or wait until they go through stamina uselessly.
Some characters do get a not so great time in boat pvp for invulnerability frames (staff evie) but I personally secondaried staff evie in boat pvp and found it EXTREMELY fun despite the lack of invulnerability frames you get, it means you have to use your mana mines and flying sparrow creatively to create walls between you and the opponent that they are attemping to space through. (This was before the current rework, where mana amber was made much more powerful and running focus became a thing).
You have a good story however you are definitely misinformed/uninformed about boat pvp, your assumptions about it as simply incorrect. I personally was mentored by the best boat pvp Kai and one of the best PvPers on the server as a young level 71 player.
25k wins in arena is significantly different than 1-4k wins in boat pvp. It can take an hour to get 25-30 wins in arena, it takes 6-7 hours to get 25-30 wins in boat pvp because each duel takes 3-4 times the time, and in boat pvp you are often watching others fight rather than fighting constantly.
DesireOfMine I did not mean to insult you earlier, I was a little bit annoyed in my post but I am glad you and the other poster have explained where you are coming from. To me it just seemed like the average well-geared player that will praise arena and rag on boat pvp without actually being educated on either. I hope since you have a significant understanding of arena that you will consider my points on boat pvp and possibly try it with me if we are given the opportunity, as I am very confident in my abilities in boat pvp. (In addition, crossgun vs chainblades is one of the only fair fights that chainblades has nowadays; though I mostly play longbow in boat pvp now).