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Rise - Where did the fun go?

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  • ElleaseEllease
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    I still see newbies asking for help on post-RISE missions because they failed the mission by themselves (and I get a wait timer nearly every time I go to help them, so much for removing those...). There are complaints that some battles are too hard for specific players. Having experience with a character/boss goes a long way in this game.

    I have a friend with two level 90s prior to RISE, working on her third character. She couldn't solo anything beyond level 35 or so, and got to 85 within the next 2 months by megaing for assistance on every battle on the way up. I have another friend who logs in for maybe a combined 10 hours of playtime within a month, whom got from 60 to 81 prior to RISE. He spent weeks catching his story up from Ruins of Sanctity to Season 2 because he had initially leveled to 60 grinding Hidden.

    These are the kinds of people RISE is trying to retain, for them to invest more time into the game. It is not for the vets who can handle themselves at this lower content. Besides, once you reached endgame, did it really make sense that you can kill Neamhain within 15 minutes, but it would still take you 4 minutes to kill a dragon you fought when you were 100x weaker?
  • SlyGoatSlyGoat
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    Ellease wrote: »
    These are the kinds of people RISE is trying to retain, for them to invest more time into the game. It is not for the vets who can handle themselves at this lower content. Besides, once you reached endgame, did it really make sense that you can kill Neamhain within 15 minutes, but it would still take you 4 minutes to kill a dragon you fought when you were 100x weaker?

    Easy mode already existed. Those players already had it as an option. Now potential players who want a challenge have no option.
    Quinque2edgy4uKayoAemskey
  • ElleaseEllease
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    SlyGoat wrote: »
    Ellease wrote: »
    These are the kinds of people RISE is trying to retain, for them to invest more time into the game. It is not for the vets who can handle themselves at this lower content. Besides, once you reached endgame, did it really make sense that you can kill Neamhain within 15 minutes, but it would still take you 4 minutes to kill a dragon you fought when you were 100x weaker?

    Easy mode already existed. Those players already had it as an option. Now potential players who want a challenge have no option.

    Some of those easy mode stats were not in line with a first-time player's ability to finish. On a completely bare character (the character was taken from 1 to 60 in days with no AP events/guild bonus) it took me about 8 minutes to clear easy mode Shakarr without dying. I've assisted people on easy mode Lavasat 15-25 minutes into the fight, because they couldn't handle the repair mechanic. I had others who were stuck at A Conversation (the solo grenade gremlin mission) because he did too much damage. In my large guild, I had a guildmate excited for an unlimited revival event because they weren't able to pass Shakarr without it for their story. The game, while having an easy mode option, was unforgiving to these players.

    The other problem about balancing other modes is people do not want to take a lesser reward in most cases, and would rather quit out of frustration attempting the harder mode than to do the easier counterpart. If you make the reward too small (like current hero mode), the majority of people will refuse to run it over the normal version because it's too hard and not worthwhile. If you make the reward too great, people feel forced into it and get frustrated out of the sheer difficulty they face.
  • EnigmaTaroEnigmaTaro
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    edited July 5, 2017
    SlyGoat wrote: »
    Easy mode already existed. Those players already had it as an option. Now potential players who want a challenge have no option.

    You do know there are players who refused to do easy mode because it's called "easy" mode, right? When i saw people megaing for stuff like story heide back in the days and told them easy mode exist, they always shut me off saying but easy mode is "easy".
    Devcat even mentioned they had to revamp early content, because new players didn't know how to start a boat, and keep hitting the duck sign on the boat instead. There are lots of stupid players out there :/

    Also, you get people megaing for devil in the water and memory of the past carries all the time.
    They refuse to do easy mode for less exp, when they could've grind that amount of exp if they could've just spent the time waiting on boat to go grind in places like muir or abyssal arena. When i level my alt through s2 I always had to use easy mode for stuff like memory of past because the raid was just unreasonable and not everyone has monster PCs. Vet doesn't help these players who had to do the run in 70-80 brackets because of lack of drops, so stop claiming people love doing challenging raids like cromm before rise nerf. They nerfed stuff people don't care anymore.

    Devcat could've returned macha and hero mode for s1 though with original AI though, stuff like ein lacher colru is indeed a joke now, but people even complained those were tedious, instead of requiring skills.
    Dokkun
  • DyuDyu
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    EnigmaTaro wrote: »
    SlyGoat wrote: »
    Easy mode already existed. Those players already had it as an option. Now potential players who want a challenge have no option.

    You do know there are players who refused to do easy mode because it's called "easy" mode, right? When i saw people megaing for stuff like story heide back in the days and told them easy mode exist, they always shut me off saying but easy mode is "easy".
    Devcat even mentioned they had to revamp early content, because new players didn't know how to start a boat, and keep hitting the duck sign on the boat instead. There are lots of stupid players out there :/

    Also, you get people megaing for devil in the water and memory of the past carries all the time.
    They refuse to do easy mode for less exp, when they could've grind that amount of exp if they could've just spent the time waiting on boat to go grind in places like muir or abyssal arena. When i level my alt through s2 I always had to use easy mode for stuff like memory of past because the raid was just unreasonable and not everyone has monster PCs. Vet doesn't help these players who had to do the run in 70-80 brackets because of lack of drops, so stop claiming people love doing challenging raids like cromm before rise nerf. They nerfed stuff people don't care anymore.

    Devcat could've returned macha and hero mode for s1 though with original AI though, stuff like ein lacher colru is indeed a joke now, but people even complained those were tedious, instead of requiring skills.

    Well, sorry not sorry for them... But they were complete tryhard idiots then. It's like saying that this game is easy and when something actually hard comes in half of the entire server profuesly pay people to get carried (ACTUALLY HAPPENS).
  • NecrochildNecrochild
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    Arix wrote: »
    are people actually surprised old bosses turn into a joke over time

    Pls. This applies to S3 as well, buddy and I duo'd Braha without getting the chance to change sides post-rise. Literally all that is left in this game is Nemhain.
  • SlyGoatSlyGoat
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    Necrochild wrote: »
    Arix wrote: »
    are people actually surprised old bosses turn into a joke over time

    Pls. This applies to S3 as well, buddy and I duo'd Braha without getting the chance to change sides post-rise. Literally all that is left in this game is Nemhain.

    Braha was never a challenge though, it's just the punching bag Lakoria-raid of S3 with attacks you barely have to dodge.
  • LoLoBootyLoLoBooty
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    SlyGoat wrote: »
    Necrochild wrote: »
    Arix wrote: »
    are people actually surprised old bosses turn into a joke over time

    Pls. This applies to S3 as well, buddy and I duo'd Braha without getting the chance to change sides post-rise. Literally all that is left in this game is Nemhain.

    Braha was never a challenge though, it's just the punching bag Lakoria-raid of S3 with attacks you barely have to dodge.

    Back when S3 originally was released...before the power creep...Braha was challenging. Frustrating especially if the team didn't know how to manage switching sides. People used to die frequently.
    DokkunSlothPrincess
  • ikeviikevi
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    edited July 6, 2017
    LoLoBooty wrote: »
    Back when S3 originally was released...before the power creep...Braha was challenging. Frustrating especially if the team didn't know how to manage switching sides. People used to die frequently.

    I always remember Braha being done within ~1 min after the first switch.
  • NecrochildNecrochild
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    edited July 6, 2017
    SlyGoat wrote: »
    Necrochild wrote: »
    Arix wrote: »
    are people actually surprised old bosses turn into a joke over time

    Pls. This applies to S3 as well, buddy and I duo'd Braha without getting the chance to change sides post-rise. Literally all that is left in this game is Nemhain.

    Braha was never a challenge though, it's just the punching bag Lakoria-raid of S3 with attacks you barely have to dodge.

    I was referring more to the damage/HP. It's two people, and Braha never spat, and we were dealing reduced damage since we never changed sides.. What's the point of boss mechanics.

  • 2edgy4u2edgy4u
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    edited July 6, 2017
    the solution to some bosses still being difficult on easy is not to nerf everything else and make easy the only option. lol.
    EnigmaTaro wrote: »
    Vet doesn't help these players who had to do the run in 70-80 brackets because of lack of drops, so stop claiming people love doing challenging raids like cromm before rise nerf. They nerfed stuff people don't care anymore.

    took about 10 minutes for a 70-79 raid to fill with a handful of 90s on west, pre-rise. that might be long for some people (incl me) but what can you expect months after the most recent content update? and again, there is easy mode. maybe rename it "solo" mode if people's egos really are that fragile.

    edit: i havent spent more than 2 hours in-game over the last week, so i don't know firsthand, but are people kicking based on stats again? https://www.reddit.com/r/Vindictus/comments/6lezj3/new_player_here_just_hit_90_and_kinda_lost/

    so newbie-friendly, much casual, wow! let's be honest, this was about profits, not appealing to new, casual players. if you aren't here to p2w, we aren't interested.
  • pootismanpootisman
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    Put it this way, they fine tuned the normal mode for leveling, and hero mode for people who actually want challenge.

    If you don't wanna do hero mode, there is always 4 man S3 raid and ein lacher for you MLGPRO players who think this game is too easy.
    My experience over the last 2 weeks tells me half of the parties require hard carrying. There is at least one player in each of these parties that is just a dead weight, so you really have to try sometimes.

    IMHO this game plays the best when someone has the skills to solo.
    BreastGrill
  • BreastGrillBreastGrill
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    edited July 7, 2017
    pootisman wrote: »
    Put it this way, they fine tuned the normal mode for leveling, and hero mode for people who actually want challenge.

    If you don't wanna do hero mode, there is always 4 man S3 raid and ein lacher for you MLGPRO players who think this game is too easy.
    My experience over the last 2 weeks tells me half of the parties require hard carrying. There is at least one player in each of these parties that is just a dead weight, so you really have to try sometimes.

    IMHO this game plays the best when someone has the skills to solo.

    The best part now is that everything up to season 3 should be a faceroll. Which means more than likely the game will see a bunch of new max leveled players who barely understand how to play their characters, much less solo a raid boss
    MaryJaneLoLoBooty
  • SlyGoatSlyGoat
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    edited July 7, 2017
    pootisman wrote: »
    Put it this way, they fine tuned the normal mode for leveling, and hero mode for people who actually want challenge.

    If you don't wanna do hero mode, there is always 4 man S3 raid and ein lacher for you MLGPRO players who think this game is too easy.
    My experience over the last 2 weeks tells me half of the parties require hard carrying. There is at least one player in each of these parties that is just a dead weight, so you really have to try sometimes.

    IMHO this game plays the best when someone has the skills to solo.

    The problem is, once again, there is no challenge until you're max level. You can't do (most of) S3 until 90. You can't do hero mode until 90. All that's left is what is essentially easy mode. Plus, the game goes from 0 to 100 on the difficulty scale because you aren't challenged before you hit 90 and therefore you never learn game mechanics or how to play your character. You just facetank meaningless boss attacks and kill them in two combos. Then you try to do that to Regina and get slapped to the floor constantly.
    DokkunKayoAemskey
  • DaPlayaDaPlaya
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    edited July 7, 2017
    2edgy4u wrote: »
    edit: i havent spent more than 2 hours in-game over the last week, so i don't know firsthand, but are people kicking based on stats again?.

    I've seen a bit of kicking recently although I don't kick in my own parties (I'm too lazy to check people's stats anyways lol). With only 4 people in a "raid", there is a good chance of getting 3 other lowbies and many people don't like to solo-carry. I've had to solo-carry quite a few times since RISE hit, something I seldom had to do before because there was usually at least 1 or 2 others to help carry with me when raids were 8-man.

  • pootismanpootisman
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    SlyGoat wrote: »
    pootisman wrote: »
    Put it this way, they fine tuned the normal mode for leveling, and hero mode for people who actually want challenge.

    If you don't wanna do hero mode, there is always 4 man S3 raid and ein lacher for you MLGPRO players who think this game is too easy.
    My experience over the last 2 weeks tells me half of the parties require hard carrying. There is at least one player in each of these parties that is just a dead weight, so you really have to try sometimes.

    IMHO this game plays the best when someone has the skills to solo.

    The problem is, once again, there is no challenge until you're max level. You can't do (most of) S3 until 90. You can't do hero mode until 90. All that's left is what is essentially easy mode. Plus, the game goes from 0 to 100 on the difficulty scale because you aren't challenged before you hit 90 and therefore you never learn game mechanics or how to play your character. You just facetank meaningless boss attacks and kill them in two combos. Then you try to do that to Regina and get slapped to the floor constantly.

    Considering how fast it takes from lv1-90, making it challenging before lv90 seems pointless. Anyone who's half decent will be lv90 in like 2-3 days. Might as well make people finish leveling first and then do whatever they want after.

    Do not use new players and what they want as an excuse. You are not a new player so you can't assume anything. For a game that is now more and more catered to the casual playerbase and with a relatively low playerbase remaining, this might be for the best.
  • RyanReynoldsRyanReynolds
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    Another thing I have just noticed, Nilf raids Att Limit is put back on again, whilst S2 raids are super easy.

    One thing I do miss is having big parties
  • BeepBeepImAJeepBeepBeepImAJeep
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    edited July 8, 2017
    No offense but... season 3 raids weren't that challenging before rise. They only had more Hps.
    Many people are quitting not just for the Rise changes applied in the battle-system, but for the lack of challenge and almost non-existent skill-rewarding of endgame contents.
    What the game needs in the PVE, are more raids like Neamhain.
    KayoAemskey
  • KayoAemskeyKayoAemskey
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    edited July 9, 2017
    pootisman wrote: »
    Considering how fast it takes from lv1-90, making it challenging before lv90 seems pointless. Anyone who's half decent will be lv90 in like 2-3 days. Might as well make people finish leveling first and then do whatever they want after.

    Do not use new players and what they want as an excuse. You are not a new player so you can't assume anything. For a game that is now more and more catered to the casual playerbase and with a relatively low playerbase remaining, this might be for the best.

    The reason leveling takes no time, is because the game is too bloody easy. Making it challenging before 90 ensures people learn the most basic things about the game and their character. Knowing these kind of things was pretty important before RISE, since yanno. The game required you to have a functional human level of skill to succeed. Now anyone with a potion hotkey and a mouse can faceroll everything until endgame. Anyone who fondly remembers ANYTHING about Vindictus' combat pre-RISE, should absolutely make a fresh alt with no gear and play again. Just take in the fact that you don't have to run from Irukul anymore before you click him to death in two combos. Get hit by as many attacks as you want forever. Who cares? Infinite Potion HP BAYH BEEEEE

    I can speak from the new player perspective as well. Pre-RISE leveling wasn't slow at all, as far as MMO's go. I was gaining 2-5 levels a day with my buddy when we duo'd. The main quest basically feeds you until 85 or so. So what's the difference now?

    It ain't fun.

    At least before I felt entitled to those levels I was gaining by the day. "Yeah I killed a rampant fallen general before he could doom the world, I'm a pretty big deal" has become, "Oh yeah I gained 40 levels today and left clicked a dragon, every shaman of every race, and the whole tribe of gnolls to death before lunch."
    ArishanteDokkunSkiegh
  • DaPlayaDaPlaya
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    Reducing the raid size from 8 to 4 killed the fun for me. I've been helping a couple friends level up, but haven't been doing much "raiding" these days. A 4-man "raid" is not much different from regular quests. I might go into temporary retirement till lv 95 hits.

    This is also the only MMO I've ever played that calls a 4-man party a "raid". The only "raids" we have is Neam and the Royal Army ones.