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Neamhain fi fis :)

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  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    bh3lli0m wrote: »
    "remove the whole "Shield Enhancement" skill. It is purely broke"

    and this is coming from a hammer fiona?

    I don't know if anyone else remembers when Spin2Win with Hammer Fiona was a "Thing" then. But yes it was,

    Sword Fiona's where getting kicked from boats because of this, because Sword Fiona was deemed too weak.

    But Sword Fionas were NOT posting about that and complaining when that was a "Thing".

    Just about every Fiona then was a Hammer and they would laugh at you when you main Long Sword.

    Those were the times......

    And I am sorry, that I am actually a hybrid Fiona playing both LS and Hammer, sadly I don't have a decent LS atm.

    I do have some LS stuffs in my YT channel too.

    wondering why you start to go even off topic now. Would you mind enlightening me how to LS Fiona without relying highly on Counter attack , as many LS Fiona players do in their speedrun solo?
  • bh3lli0mbh3lli0m
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    Samalenko wrote: »
    bh3lli0m wrote: »
    "remove the whole "Shield Enhancement" skill. It is purely broke"

    and this is coming from a hammer fiona?

    I don't know if anyone else remembers when Spin2Win with Hammer Fiona was a "Thing" then. But yes it was,

    Sword Fiona's where getting kicked from boats because of this, because Sword Fiona was deemed too weak.

    But Sword Fionas were NOT posting about that and complaining when that was a "Thing".

    Just about every Fiona then was a Hammer and they would laugh at you when you main Long Sword.

    Those were the times......

    And I am sorry, that I am actually a hybrid Fiona playing both LS and Hammer, sadly I don't have a decent LS atm.

    I do have some LS stuffs in my YT channel too.

    wondering why you start to go even off topic now. Would you mind enlightening me how to LS Fiona without relying highly on Counter attack , as many LS Fiona players do in their speedrun solo?

    Off topic?

    I was replying to your comment that Shield Enhancement should be removed because as YOU have stated that it is BROKEN so it SHOULD be REMOVED.
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    bh3lli0m wrote: »
    Samalenko wrote: »
    bh3lli0m wrote: »
    "remove the whole "Shield Enhancement" skill. It is purely broke"

    and this is coming from a hammer fiona?

    I don't know if anyone else remembers when Spin2Win with Hammer Fiona was a "Thing" then. But yes it was,

    Sword Fiona's where getting kicked from boats because of this, because Sword Fiona was deemed too weak.

    But Sword Fionas were NOT posting about that and complaining when that was a "Thing".

    Just about every Fiona then was a Hammer and they would laugh at you when you main Long Sword.

    Those were the times......

    And I am sorry, that I am actually a hybrid Fiona playing both LS and Hammer, sadly I don't have a decent LS atm.

    I do have some LS stuffs in my YT channel too.

    wondering why you start to go even off topic now. Would you mind enlightening me how to LS Fiona without relying highly on Counter attack , as many LS Fiona players do in their speedrun solo?

    Off topic?

    I was replying to your comment that Shield Enhancement should be removed because as YOU have stated that it is BROKEN so it SHOULD be REMOVED.

    On the one hand you keep saying "being more than one dimension FIfi" on the other hand a single personal opinion would have triggered you so much. You literally just confuse me. Why is it so hard to just admit "Shield Enhancement is too OP"? I simply made my comment, not like it even matters to Devcat.

    So what about your "multi dimension Fiona"? Would you tell me that CA isn't the skill why LS Fiona being OP in many ways?
  • bh3lli0mbh3lli0m
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    Samalenko wrote: »
    bh3lli0m wrote: »
    Samalenko wrote: »
    bh3lli0m wrote: »
    "remove the whole "Shield Enhancement" skill. It is purely broke"

    and this is coming from a hammer fiona?

    I don't know if anyone else remembers when Spin2Win with Hammer Fiona was a "Thing" then. But yes it was,

    Sword Fiona's where getting kicked from boats because of this, because Sword Fiona was deemed too weak.

    But Sword Fionas were NOT posting about that and complaining when that was a "Thing".

    Just about every Fiona then was a Hammer and they would laugh at you when you main Long Sword.

    Those were the times......

    And I am sorry, that I am actually a hybrid Fiona playing both LS and Hammer, sadly I don't have a decent LS atm.

    I do have some LS stuffs in my YT channel too.

    wondering why you start to go even off topic now. Would you mind enlightening me how to LS Fiona without relying highly on Counter attack , as many LS Fiona players do in their speedrun solo?

    Off topic?

    I was replying to your comment that Shield Enhancement should be removed because as YOU have stated that it is BROKEN so it SHOULD be REMOVED.

    On the one hand you keep saying "being more than one dimension FIfi" on the other hand a single personal opinion would have triggered you so much. You literally just confuse me. Why is it so hard to just admit "Shield Enhancement is too OP"? I simply made my comment, not like it even matters to Devcat.

    So what about your "multi dimension Fiona"? Would you tell me that CA isn't the skill why LS Fiona being OP in many ways?

    Who triggered who? :P

  • bh3lli0mbh3lli0m
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    But in all seriousness response to your question:

    I would argue that the "Deflect" skill has surpassed "Seca" as the go-to move if you're a DPS fanatic, as a Deflected Focal/ AMK easily surpasses the damage output of SECA.

    CA is just the "Safest" and "Easiest" way to do damage in tight situations.
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    edited May 1, 2017
    Was just expecting a civilized discussion about the Counter attack , and some new aspect of LS Fiona. Would be much better if it didn't end up with some pointless accusation and offtopic arguments.

    Even just a single video which the player maximize his DPS potential without trying to cover as much CA as possible, would be a great prove of me being wrong.
    bh3lli0m wrote: »
    But in all seriousness response to your question:

    I would argue that the "Deflect" skill has surpassed "Seca" as the go-to move if you're a DPS fanatic, as a Deflected Focal/ AMK easily surpasses the damage output of SECA.

    CA is just the "Safest" and "Easiest" way to do damage in tight situations.

    Boss ain't sandbag and letting u finish ur combo without being disturbed. let alone the fact that the second combo would have caused twice as much time as needed for first combo.

    as said , just a single solo that could prove me wrong.
  • bh3lli0mbh3lli0m
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    Samalenko wrote: »
    Was just expecting a civilized discussion about the Counter attack , and some new aspect of LS Fiona. Would be much better if it didn't end up with some pointless accusation and offtopic arguments.

    Even just a single video which the player maximize his DPS potential without trying to cover as much CA as possible, would be a great prove of me being wrong.

    If i was still playing as much I would LOVE to give you videos.

    But crying about how CA is sooo OP is just so...... so 5 years ago?

    Seriously?
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    edited May 1, 2017

    yea sure.. always wall of text and ends up like this. no offense.

    I know balance in a MMO is just impossible. But dude, if I were really to "cry" about "CA is soooo OP", I'd make no such suggestions at all. Right? Shouldn't I be more like "Fuuuuu this LS Fions braindead still top dmg fuuu."

    To be fair, do you really think that LS Fiona without shield enhancement would be weak? I did even make some other suggestions didn't I ? Imo a LS Fiona should be facing the choice whether to go for AMK or CA, after a successful perfect guard, just like old time, you could play safe with CA or for dmg with AMK , instead of right now absolutely CA > AMK.
  • bh3lli0mbh3lli0m
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    I'm sorry for saying that and I apologize.

    Shield Enhancement is now not so much of a big deal sometimes I don't even activate it to save SP for Focal.

    IMO PG to AMK hits for more. CA for nitpicking in tight situations.

    But a Deflected AMK or better yet a Deflected Downward Counter is sooo satisfying :P
  • LeucosieLeucosie
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    edited May 1, 2017
    CA is indeed one of the strongest moves fiona has. Counter attacks alone won't achieve anything, nor playing without counters for that matter. Here are 2 zecallion runs I've done quite some time ago, the first one was done before niffleheim att cap removal and the second one was done after the said update during that period of time when Fiona couldn't use block without getting hit on XE server ( I had something like 28k+ att back then ). I'm not advertising my stuff just trying to make things more understandable ! :D. You can easily spot a huge dps difference from taking away counters from fiona's game.





    The reason why Salamenko says CA is op is that not only does it hits hard and fast ( as well as granting you a free amaranth kick ) but it also gives a lot of sp. Those precious sp you need to start an even deadlier dps rotation ( focal point chaining ). So basically the usual counters+AK combo has high damage and allows you to repeatedly get even more damage out of FP. Party dps for longsword fiona is obviously highly related to the number of CA she can land, that's why feather dashing is a pretty great tool ( that most fionas either refuse to use, consider it useless or simply can't use properly ) since it allows her to get a lot of counters without being aggroed.

    Anyway I don't think nerfing CA damage is relevant since it would make fiona's damage look ridiculous in party play ( 8 man parties ), but on the other hand, counters mechanics make her the strongest soloer. That gap between solo play and party play will be kinda annoying for devs to fix ( if they even care about it ).



  • IbNoobIbNoob
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    Ivy Sweep FTW >:) besides iron defense + butterfly swing is OP :p
    NAplsstop
  • bh3lli0mbh3lli0m
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    Leucosie wrote: »
    CA is indeed one of the strongest moves fiona has. Counter attacks alone won't achieve anything, nor playing without counters for that matter. Here are 2 zecallion runs I've done quite some time ago, the first one was done before niffleheim att cap removal and the second one was done after the said update during that period of time when Fiona couldn't use block without getting hit on XE server ( I had something like 28k+ att back then ). I'm not advertising my stuff just trying to make things more understandable ! :D. You can easily spot a huge dps difference from taking away counters from fiona's game.





    The reason why Salamenko says CA is op is that not only does it hits hard and fast ( as well as granting you a free amaranth kick ) but it also gives a lot of sp. Those precious sp you need to start an even deadlier dps rotation ( focal point chaining ). So basically the usual counters+AK combo has high damage and allows you to repeatedly get even more damage out of FP. Party dps for longsword fiona is obviously highly related to the number of CA she can land, that's why feather dashing is a pretty great tool ( that most fionas either refuse to use, consider it useless or simply can't use properly ) since it allows her to get a lot of counters without being aggroed.

    Anyway I don't think nerfing CA damage is relevant since it would make fiona's damage look ridiculous in party play ( 8 man parties ), but on the other hand, counters mechanics make her the strongest soloer. That gap between solo play and party play will be kinda annoying for devs to fix ( if they even care about it ).



    Well if you're soloing or doing a speedrun then yeah CA would be OP, as you have the Boss's undivided attention to get all that CA/ SP.

    But it's a totally different beast when you're in an 8-man party.

    CA or even SECA would be mundane in an 8-man party unless you know how to fish for them.

    But enough of that.

    have fun Fifis

    +Love
  • lumix345lumix345
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    Samalenko wrote: »
    lumix345 wrote: »
    her strategies are more situational now as with many characters.

    1.you are about to close a combo, and the boss is to make another move.
    2.you can now 1), roll and start another combo 2), deflect and kick or FP 3),perfect guard and counter.

    I am just trying to prove in this situation, 3) is mostly the best way to go. I'm not saying you shouldn't rely any other skills for more DPS potential.

    even you could learn this fact in the NA fiona Neamhain solo. He always cover as much CA as possible. He always goes for CA whenever he could.
    You could find me a single moment that he chose deflect over CA.
    (there are actually some parts that OP used deflect instead of CA, but that was actually he tried to play safe, afraid that he couldn't have enough att speed to close the combo into Guard hence chose deflect. Or the CA would be hard to aim after Guard. Only these 2 situations are exceptions.)



    Okay again I am not sure I understand your point, but in-response to what I believe you are saying:

    Again the character is situational but about your 3 options:

    1) Rolling is fine in some situations, but like 99% of the time this is not needed because you can block/deflect into a combo.
    2) IMO, to be an aggresive Fiona that focuses on damage, I would choose this option like 70%+ of the time
    3) This is the option I would choose to play safe/gain back SP while maintaining decent damage

    Admittedly I used to rely heavily on CA, especially bosses like Eochaid/Zecallion which are super aggresive and give ample opportunites to CA. But bosses that aren't as aggressive or have a wide array of attacks that allow you to choose between CA or deflect and Focal Point I would definitely choose to Focal Point since it does more damage.

    Also about the video, I don't know if we were watching the same thing, but the OP was spamming deflect/FP like crazy. I know he did because I pretty much modeled my Neam gameplay style off of him. I used to rely heavily on CAing in Neam, but I found it 1) Much easier/safer to Deflect her combos because the hitboxes were weird sometimes, especially her 4-hit combo, and flying twirling attack, and 2) I did a fair amount more damage than before because it would allow me to swing FP twice/Deflect/FP twice again, as compared to CAing+Amaranth. I mean just take a look at your Shield-Enhancement buff timer when you play, if it doesn't hit like 10mins+ by the end of a long run, then you probably aren't using it as much. When SE first came out, I tested it in a Hero Titan solo and ended up with like 36mins on the timer and it was amazing. But now I don't rely on it much and over time I still have to reapply the buff because I let the timer wear down. Also about finding another 100 videos about speed runs, I mean I guess you could if you want, but you would have to find 100 videos on like every boss to prove your point, because if you were to focus on just one boss that allows you to heavily spam CA of course you would be right because well the situation calls for CA + Amaranth. But if you were to find 100 videos about Fiona LS soloing Kraken, I mean it would probably favor me because you have like NO opportunities to CA in Kraken.

    Finally, about your comment on taking out SE totally or not generating SP. I mean I suppose it would definitely nerf the character, but it doesn't feel necessary since all it will do is reduce the amount of options for a Fiona, since maximizing the character's damage potential requires a lot of SP. But even then, it still may not make a difference to their SP gain and damage, because a Fiona could focus on Deflecting(gains SP)+amaranth(gains SP) and then focus on Shield Dash + FP and "Hold R" Shield Dash + Focal Point and maybe Shield Bash + Amaranth.

    Again my main point is, Fiona is OP not because she gains SP really fast or damages linearly without considering the play style, but that she can Damage and have incredible Survivability at the same time.




  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    As for survivability it has never ever been in the picture where I would consider a class OP or not... At this point this game is no longer like what it has copied from Monster Hunter, staying alive isn't a big deal at all..

    I think Leuco has explained my point really well already.

    For the video, you could try to link a time zone that OP prefers deflect rather than Counter Attack. As said, only 2 cases that you would go for Deflect instead of Counter
    1), Att speed doesn't allow you to close the combo with Guard. Deflect is the only option.
    2), Counter Attack would miss because Neamhain moves out of the hitbox (or being said, you can't manually control the first CA's attack direction so it would very likely to miss)

    Also personally I would consider each CA missed being a misplay from the player himself.

  • NAplsstopNAplsstop
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    this thread is like arguing about which ingredient in chocolate milk is more important.
    Leucosie
  • LeucosieLeucosie
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    bh3lli0m wrote: »
    Well if you're soloing or doing a speedrun then yeah CA would be OP, as you have the Boss's undivided attention to get all that CA/ SP.

    But it's a totally different beast when you're in an 8-man party.

    CA or even SECA would be mundane in an 8-man party unless you know how to fish for them.

    Yes I totally agree, 8-man party play requires more attention as to where bosses are gonna attack so you can get there and be ready for counters. Shield enhancement should always be up though 180 Sp is no big deal ( never forget your awakenings mates ! )

    lumix345 wrote: »
    But if you were to find 100 videos about Fiona LS soloing Kraken, I mean it would probably favor me because you have like NO opportunities to CA in Kraken.

    That's actually the exact opposite. Every bosses have counter opportunities including kraken. I quickly recorded this pretty bad run ( lots of hits taken, lots or failed counters ) just to illustrate that point.



    But yea if one really cares about dps, then he should favor counters+AK over anything else ( If you can't guard then deflecting and resuming your dps rotation is relevant ) and go into FP when it's time to do so ( and repeat )
  • lumix345lumix345
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    Leucosie wrote: »
    bh3lli0m wrote: »

    That's actually the exact opposite. Every bosses have counter opportunities including kraken. I quickly recorded this pretty bad run ( lots of hits taken, lots or failed counters ) just to illustrate that point.



    But yea if one really cares about dps, then he should favor counters+AK over anything else ( If you can't guard then deflecting and resuming your dps rotation is relevant ) and go into FP when it's time to do so ( and repeat )

    That's actually a valid point, so I admit I stand corrected about Kraken, but again I still do not believe that CA is as incredibly broken as Samalenko says because of the SP gain and Damage. It's amazing because, again, its a really safe way to play while dishing out a good amount of damage. Survivablity is watered down in the regular raids because of GGs which basically throws any worry about clearing the raid out the window. For raids like Neam, CA'ing does definitely stick out in the runs, but not because it allows a Fiona to generate a massive amount of SP or deals crazy amounts of Damage, but that it allows her to deal a good amount of damage in a safe way.
  • Tpyop0Tpyop0
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    edited May 2, 2017
    "Counter attack being not only the fastest SP gaining but also highest DPS just doesn't make any sense."

    This statement appears to be the cause of the argument and/or confusion. Various posts have touched on this already but I'll restate for clarity. Counter attack is the fastest SP generation skill but it is not the highest damage move by itself. As I read it, the advantages of enhanced counter attack are being "double-dipped". Enhanced counter attack becomes the highest damage move *because* of the SP generation that it provides on top of its damage. The quoted sentence makes these filthy Longsword users think that you are suggesting that 2X Counter -> AMK -> Wait for Boss to Attack -> 2X Counter -> AMK do the highest damage. It will not be the highest damage even if you perfectly sneak in L->R before you have to double counter.

    I would have like to avoid this one if I can but Focal Point -> Deflect -> 2x Focal Point does more damage than double enhanced counter, and the FP combo can be used within the same attack opening as a double counter. You inevitably lose time when you wait for the boss to attack you, even if it's a fraction of a second, which can be used to pull off a FP. There are plenty of situations in which you cannot follow up a double counter with AMK and cases in which you already have a deflect buff on you before you do the Focal Point combo to make it even better. When I'm unsure on whether I have enough time to do an AMK after double counter, I intentionally do a FP->Deflect->2x FP combo. When I know for sure that I can AMK after the double counter, I do the counter + AMK combo instead. It's a bit of a toss up between Deflect-buff-non-Dash FP -> Deflect -> 2x FP and double counter -> AMK. I do Double counter -> AMK if I'm sure that I can deflect after the AMK for an immediate, extra enhanced AMK.

    Reducing double counter's SP generation will gimp Longsword's party play too much, especially for under-geared players. I'd rather take a hit on the enhanced counter damage instead if a nerf came striking down but I don't see DevCat making changes any time soon. It isn't fair to balance a class around a solo Zecallion or Neamhain in which the bosses are constantly attacking for extremely high SP generation. Imagine balancing Fionas around the Braha fight. Yes, I agree that playing a hammer is not very rewarding relative to the effort required. One can only hope, how about DevCat buff Hammers instead.



  • RhapsodyOfFireRhapsodyOfFire
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    Both weapons are good. Hammer simply has the powerful but slow characteristic and long sword has the average but fast characteristic. Speed is always the most important that's why LS seems to be easier. If you don't have speed you'll have a hard time doing your dps at fast bosses but you can easily do your dps at sandbag bosses.

    If you want 100% dps, then beat the boss in solo. At least latency won't get in your way then. If you play in party and you want to contribute to the party the most important thing is what has been mentioned already that try not to lure away the boss because that's annoying for everyone. Your little chase will cost other people their dps and the boss may use a powerful/unavoidable attack because you are too far from him so it increases the chance of others' death and they will be angry.

    Also the core skills of Fiona are Counter-attack (with or without shield enhancement) and Shield deflect. And you'll have to look out for Slashing High after you used Shield Charge and spam your skills and that's all. If you are good at CA and SD you will have a lot of dps. There's no need to maximize dps as if a few percents counted.

    Best regards,
    an ordinary Hammer (soon LS too) Fiona