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[QUOTE=Arrow95] I wasn't sure about you at first DesireOfMine, Idk why I thought you thought you were better in everyone else, But you know your stuff, you have my Respect. [/QUOTE]
Thanks ^^. Also just to point out, i'm sorry since it may seem a bit from my last posts that i'm just acting cocky and stuff... i don't usually wave everywhere with the screenshots of my wins at people, however when i'm called out and people doubt my words... idk, i guess that's just one of the things that i can do to prove my experience with this PvP system. So yeah, sorry for that. I don't think that i'm a better person than other people, i definitely have huge experience with Arena PvP in particular and i may do things very well in there... but there are things which i'm bad at as well, in which other people are better than me.
[QUOTE=Sylarius] DesireOfMine I did not mean to insult you earlier, I was a little bit annoyed in my post but I am glad you and the other poster have explained where you are coming from. To me it just seemed like the average well-geared player that will praise arena and rag on boat pvp without actually being educated on either. I hope since you have a significant understanding of arena that you will consider my points on boat pvp and possibly try it with me if we are given the opportunity, as I am very confident in my abilities in boat pvp. (In addition, crossgun vs chainblades is one of the only fair fights that chainblades has nowadays; though I mostly play longbow in boat pvp now). [/QUOTE]
I'm sorry as well if i insulted you (didn't mean to). I'm a very direct person, i don't usually try to sweet talk or make my words more 'acceptable' in the way they sound... i just speak straight from my mind. So yeah, i called dungeon PvP 'skill-less', maybe i shouldn't... maybe better description for it would be 'less skilled than in Arena'... nevertheless, this is my opinion. I don't try to coerce anybody to think like me, i just share with my thoughts about what i know. Maybe you're right and there is more to dungeon PvP than i see right now, however it just seems very unlikely to me at the moment. I was thinking a lot about this stuff (believe me), and i always end up at the same conclusion. I just think that the basic combat design from Arena is the way to go, rather than PvP based on PvE mechanics. I also think that developers think this way, because why would they introduce different mechanics to PvP if they didn't? So yeah, too bad only that they didn't finish what they've started and they focus mostly on PvE right now . There probably is some room for improvement in terms of dungeon PvP which makes one person better than another, however that 'room' is probably a lot smaller than the one in Arena PvP, which is why that is the part of game which i focus on. For example i also have bad opinion about Free Match and Siege Match (even tho it shares the same mechanics as Arena), simply because this counter design which i've mentioned before (smash>dodge>grab>smash...) doesn't work properly in team fights. For example let's say that there are 2 players against you... and you dodge an attack of one person, however at the same time the other opponent grabs you... and even if you'd predicted both - there is nothing you can do, simply because this counter design doesn't work well with more than 1v1 interactions.
In either case... i have my opinion, people have theirs. I like this, people like this... everyone should do what they enjoy. So no matter what i say, i hope that you don't take my words as insult - because they aren't meant to be an insult.
If it's about playing together... again, as mentioned in previous posts. The issue is distance. You live in US, i live in EU. The ping between our locations makes PvP unplayable. Other words if i would join US server to play with you - i would play with 300+ ping for example (which makes Vindictus combat unplayable), and if you'd join EU server to play with me - then you'd be the one with 300+ ping. There is just no way for us to play together in normal way, unless one of us would physically move his ass to another continent . So if one day you will come for a visit to EU and you will have access to PC and will to play Vindictus - sure, why not ^^, let me know and we can play some PvP . I personally doubt i will end up in US any soon... so yeah.
@DesireOfMine Surely you must agree that knocking the skill of something you have barely tried is unfair lol, I could look at table tennis players and think about how easy it is - all they're doing is hitting an extremely small ball onto a huge table - but realistically there is way more going on than that that I have no idea about until I actually play and learn more about the sport. (Just as an example since I actually play table tennis and know there is an insane amount of coordination and skill in it, but to people who don't play it it may not seem like it.)
"Less skilled than arena" I don't know which requires more skill, but I do know that high level boat pvp requires immense skill, again you're trying to compare two different things without having tried one of them at all, and based on what you've said you hardly know anything about what boat pvp actually consists of...
Yes the developers think that way which is why they made arena but that is a different debate and the majority of boat pvpers on west disliked arena because many mechanics in arena are essentially dumbed down (SUPER lenient dodge frames, grab makes timing your stuff less important, huge amounts of latency, impossible to get out late smashes because normal attacks don't flinch, which makes chars like scythe evie much worse, timer makes hit -> dodge -> timeout easier). etc... many of the issues I and others have with arena, you prefer, and vice versa.
I dislike grabs in arena because it invalidates (or used to invalidate) normal attacks: so grab > every smash that's not R or LR, which is dumb, and also makes recovery camping possible.
I don't think that being able to read everything should make you invincible, there has to be a limit to how much you can do vs how much you can read, someone in a 1v2 situation should lose to generally good or correct choices made by the other two players.
As well, longbow makes for much more engaging duels in boat pvp you must admit, having free autoaim and multiple arrows shot in arena is lame.
Anyway long story short I just don't want people knocking stuff they haven't tried and calling it skill-less or listing stuff they believe but can't back up, this applies to any sport or hobby and there is a huge amount of talent, skill and hard work that go into everything and boat pvp is not an exception. I replied to how many of your perceived balance issues in boat pvp actually are beneficial and I hope you reconsider your view on not only boat pvp but all hobbies/sports/etc that you haven't tried, not all assumptions are wrong, but many can be. I only wish I could demonstrate them to you, I'll have to check my EU ping and see.
Yeah no offense taken in any case.
@Arrow95 Lets duel sometime. Are you in the Vindictus discord?
[QUOTE=Sylarius] @DesireOfMine Surely you must agree that knocking the skill of something you have barely tried is unfair lol, I could look at table tennis players and think about how easy it is - all they're doing is hitting an extremely small ball onto a huge table - but realistically there is way more going on than that that I have no idea about until I actually play and learn more about the sport. (Just as an example since I actually play table tennis and know there is an insane amount of coordination and skill in it, but to people who don't play it it may not seem like it.)
"Less skilled than arena" I don't know which requires more skill, but I do know that high level boat pvp requires immense skill, again you're trying to compare two different things without having tried one of them at all, and based on what you've said you hardly know anything about what boat pvp actually consists of... [/QUOTE]
You keep assuming that i 'hardly know anything about boat pvp' - which isn't truth. Again - dungeon PvP has exactly the same mechanics as PvE, so even tho i may not have played much of the PvP itself in dungeon, and let's even ignore the fact that there is tons of description with videos regarding how skills work in PvE under letter [V] - i have played PvE myself as well, so i understand very well the mechanics that govern dungeon PvP.
I understand your perception, and i know what you're thinking. When i see someone inexperienced regarding Arena PvP, talking about it like he would know everything and trashing it - i would think the very same thing that you do about me right now. However, i do it mostly because of their TOTAL lack of knowledge regarding MECHANICS. The difference between Arena PvP and dungeon PvP, is that opposite to dungeon PvP mechanics (other words PvE mechanics), Arena has literally no description whatsoever which would explain to a player how things work in there. Additionally most of the players, when they enter Arena, they expect things to work as in PvE - because that's the content which they have started with (that's the mechanics they are familiar with), and so when nothing works as they expected it to, some of them start to criticise, thinking that they have all the knowledge they need to judge it, while in fact they not only don't have the knowledge, but also no experience whatsoever regarding these MECHANICS.
Other words, what i'm saying is that you have wrong impression regarding my knowledge and qualifications to whether i'm capable of judging dungeon PvP or not. I'm pretty sure that testing it more in practice would give me more insight, indeed - i don't deny it, however it wouldn't be some kind of 'revelation' that would totally change my perspective, because i already know all of the basics and all the mechanics precisely.
Imagine this as mathematical equation where you have 3 values, 2 from which are known. By having that - a mathematician is capable of deducing them in purpose to receive the 3rd unknown value, without having it given on a silver platter. This is more accurate comparison, rather than your example with tennis.
I know how the mechanics work in dungeon PvP (1), and i know how interactions look like when two 'intelligent beings' fight against each other, i understand the process of thinking and what is possible/what's not, what is necessary for certain action to be possible/what's not (2). Therefore i can deduce whether these mechanics make any sense or not in terms of PvP interactions (3).
Continuation in next post (cuz too many characters, again xD)...
[QUOTE=Sylarius] Yes the developers think that way which is why they made arena but that is a different debate and the majority of boat pvpers on west disliked arena because many mechanics in arena are essentially dumbed down (SUPER lenient dodge frames, grab makes timing your stuff less important, huge amounts of latency, impossible to get out late smashes because normal attacks don't flinch, which makes chars like scythe evie much worse, timer makes hit -> dodge -> timeout easier). etc... many of the issues I and others have with arena, you prefer, and vice versa.
I dislike grabs in arena because it invalidates (or used to invalidate) normal attacks: so grab > every smash that's not R or LR, which is dumb, and also makes recovery camping possible.
I don't think that being able to read everything should make you invincible, there has to be a limit to how much you can do vs how much you can read, someone in a 1v2 situation should lose to generally good or correct choices made by the other two players.
As well, longbow makes for much more engaging duels in boat pvp you must admit, having free autoaim and multiple arrows shot in arena is lame.
Anyway long story short I just don't want people knocking stuff they haven't tried and calling it skill-less or listing stuff they believe but can't back up, this applies to any sport or hobby and there is a huge amount of talent, skill and hard work that go into everything and boat pvp is not an exception. I replied to how many of your perceived balance issues in boat pvp actually are beneficial and I hope you reconsider your view on not only boat pvp but all hobbies/sports/etc that you haven't tried, not all assumptions are wrong, but many can be. [/QUOTE]
I understand now from above response, what is the reason which makes you think all this. I will have to go a bit deeper to explain you why i think that your perception regarding 'prediction vs timing' is inaccurate and leads to your current conclusions.
As i've mentioned in previous posts about PvE bosses - they are designed to be 100% predictable. When you start PvE battle for the first time in your life - you can not do 0 hit run, EVEN IF YOU'D BE THE MOST EXPERIENCED PVE PLAYER IN THE WORLD. Now, think of the reason 'why'? The reason is because you don't know the animations and their PRECISE TIMING. So the process of learning/improving in PvE is as follows: 1) observe and learn animations 2) practice the timing
Now, the important part is the first part, which is 'learning animations'. What is important about it - is that these animations have PRECISE TIMING which is 100% predictable once you learn them. Dodge abilities in PvE mechanics are designed particularly for this purpose. They work in a way, that you're provided with some amount of invulnerability (depending on character design) to allow you dodge properly these attacks as long as you can perform well... by the same limiting the possibility to 'spam invulnerability' by adding sort of 'animation cooldown' that prevents you from using another abilities right after performing the dodge in some exact timing... so if you fail - you get hit.
Once you understand ^that, try to apply the same rules to interactions between two human beings. Human beings AREN'T PROGRAMMED, and the game mechanics allow for adjusting the timing of attacks within single animation (you can use them a bit earlier or with delay)... meaning that for example, even if you'd seen a Scythe Evie doing dodge in your direction (expecting that she will attack) you CAN NOT precisely adjust/predict the timing - and the reason is because THERE IS NO DATA AVAILABLE WHICH YOU COULD USE TO DEDUCE SUCH INFORMATION. Not only that, but the attacks can be repeated one after another, which would make your prediction pointless EVEN IF YOU SUCCEED (especially that normal attacks knock opponent down), because you're prevented by 'animation cooldown' from performing any actions.
I guess in simple sentence you could describe it in a way that dodge abilities aren't adjusted in power, regarding the power of attacks, in a way that the offensive part of mechanics has too many possible adjustments with no indications given regarding its changes (no possible way to extract the data by which you could determine the timing) - by therefore making dodge abilities underpowered and poorly performing.
Other words what i'm saying, is that regardless of your believe, dungeon PvP ISN'T BASED ON TIMING, simply because the design doesn't allow for extracting the data to know the timing in the range of the dodge possibilities that you have given to avoid the attack.
Imagine a fight in real world, where you have predicted an attack towards your head, so you decide to lower your body in purpose to avoid incoming punch. Now, if your opponent will keep trying to hit you at the top and you'd be lowered down all the time - you avoid all these attacks, makes sense right? Now, imagine it again in a form of 'PvE mechanics' where your dodge is designed to work only for 0.3 sec (as example) and at the same time leaving you vulnerable for the next 0.7 second of the 'animation' NO MATTER OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF INCOMING ATTACK. Other words in real fight it would look like this: 1) you lower your body to avoid hit 2) you expect/know that the next punch is coming, therefore you want to dodge it and you know how 3) but you can't, because for some reason your body says 'sorry mate, you've had only 0.3 sec available, now for the 0.7 sec you will get punched no matter of your will'
Get it? The possibilities you have/not given to dodge, are inconsistent with the needs to defend from incoming attacks. It is not a matter of your 'skill' (personal performance) whether you succeed or not, it is simply the fault of mechanics which don't allow you to perform any action when necessary.
Now in case of Arena PvP mechanics, counter design has basically equal counter balance. If you predict all of the attacks - you're capable to avoid them, because you have given the possibilities to do so. There are no blind spots which would make you unable to perform an action that is necessary, simply because invulnerability lasts until you decide to make another action, so it's your decision whether you want to keep dodging because someone is trying to spam the sh*t out of you... or whether to engage in attack. The issue is fixed. However now you ask... well, then what if someone will keep spamming invulnerability? The answer is grab. If you predict someone to dodge - you can counter it by using grab. What then if someone tries to grab me? The answer is smash - and it loops itself. This system allows you for full control over your actions, and whether you get hit or not is determined ONLY by your personal performance (i'm excluding bugs that may happen in this statement, since i talk about basic counter design in here).
Continuation nr.2 in the next post (cuz again too many characters xDD)...
This is a conclusion that i'm pretty sure Developers had as well, because they have introduced these changes in the newer PvP modes - and they did it for a reason. Not to make things 'easier', 'dumbed' or 'lenient' as you'd call it... but to give people possibilities for full control over their actions (which simply isn't possible in dungeon PvP with PvE mechanics).
Dungeon PvP ISN'T BASED ON TIMING, because you have no possibilities given to respond accordingly. On the opposite in Arena, you have everything. It's not only 'prediction based'. 1. First you need knowledge of mechanics/animations/characters abilities. 2. You need to observe opponent in REAL TIME (because people are not programs, so they don't act exactly the same every time), and make conclusions regarding his actions in purpose to deduce his next most probable move. 3. To do that, you don't only predict 'which ability' will be used, but you need to predict everything, meaning: a) ability, b) positioning, c) time frame (timing). 4. After prediction - you still have to make an ACTION, other words now you have to respond with proper counter ability, you need to perform it in proper positioning, AND YOU NEED TO DO IT WITH PROPER TIMING.
Other words, Arena PvP basic counter design does not only offer meaningful gameplay in terms of prediction of abilities, but also positioning and TIMING, which dungeon PvP isn't capable to provide. Simply because the mechanics prevent/limit you from performing any actions when necessary.
Attacking someone when he's unable to do a sh*t isn't skill-based, it's a flaw of the system that you're taking advantage of, simply because you can. This is why for example in boxing, when someone is stunned - they wait 10 sec to let him stand up if he's capable to do so, instead of allowing opponent to smash him into pieces. Or in honorable knight fights, if opponent is losing his weapon - they let him to retrieve it before the fight continues. All of ^this, is for the purpose to determine 'pure skill' in exact sport... and for that, both opponents need to have all their options available, because if some mechanic isn't counter-able - therefore it doesn't determine someone's personal abilities, since he has no control over it.
[QUOTE=Sylarius] I only wish I could demonstrate them to you, I'll have to check my EU ping and see.
Yeah no offense taken in any case. [/QUOTE]
Sure, np. If you decide on joining me in EU server, you can contact me by mail in game or via skype (i will send you my details in private forum message). Here are some of the characters which i use most often lastly: Mrrrrau Deductionist DesireOfMine
[QUOTE=Arrow95] Hey Question, DesireOfMine when the merge hits I will try out the EU Server, so are there any Really good/pro pvp kais on the eu server? [/QUOTE]
The best Kai in PvP is KuraiHotaru. You've already spoken with him in this thread.
"Human beings AREN'T PROGRAMMED, and the game mechanics allow for adjusting the timing of attacks within single animation (you can use them a bit earlier or with delay)... meaning that for example, even if you'd seen a Scythe Evie doing dodge in your direction (expecting that she will attack) you CAN NOT precisely adjust/predict the timing - and the reason is because THERE IS NO DATA AVAILABLE WHICH YOU COULD USE TO DEDUCE SUCH INFORMATION. Not only that, but the attacks can be repeated one after another, which would make your prediction pointless EVEN IF YOU SUCCEED (especially that normal attacks knock opponent down), because you're prevented by 'animation cooldown' from performing any actions."
I strongly disagree with this because you are not considering the other important skill I mentioned, which is spacing. Timing and spacing are the extremely important skills in boat pvp.
The difference between PvE and PvP is that in PvE, spacing plays way less of a factor - you can literally touch the boss the entire fight and take no damage. There are ein lacher Sword Lanns on Youtube that can no hit solo bosses with toy swords/meat cleavers/etc, simply because range hardly matters.
This is not the case in boat pvp, because the other player will simply normal attack you.
Say I'm fighting a sword lann in boat PvP.
His threat range is considerably far with thousand needles stab, but he must dodge before he does that. Otherwise he can only normal attack (which has very low range), or smash after one or more normal attacks (only the third and the fourth are really important because they have considerable range.) This means that EVERY dangerous attack by him DOES have a windup or indication that he can use it; therefore, I must precisely space myself to not get hit by it in the event he does use it, OR correctly time my dodge to dodge his smash (it has to be predicted and correctly timed).
If I am playing a similar character, than I have to correctly space my dodges and attacks to either cause him to miss and then hitting him (whiff punishing), or to hit him when he leaves himself open before he whiffs. This is the most basic form of the neutral game and this exists in pretty much every fighting game. You talk like characters have instant moves, and while they do, no good player is going to be touching the other player directly in boat pvp, unless one or both of them is horrible. So both players will be spacing around their normal attacks.
So why do you say "even if you'd seen a Scythe Evie doing dodge in your direction (expecting that she will attack) you CAN NOT precisely adjust/predict the timing - and the reason is because THERE IS NO DATA AVAILABLE WHICH YOU COULD USE TO DEDUCE SUCH INFORMATION. " ?
Every dodge in the game (at least before arisha, not sure about her/delia/sylas) can dodge blade shift lol. If evie dodges towards you she can either: 1) normal attack (this is NOT instant and leaves her open) 2) blade shift 3) let the dodge finish
therefore, the correct answer is to either smash (if your smash will outdamage her blade shift, AND stun her, because then you win the trade) or dodge if your current smash will NOT outtrade bladeshift. In this way, you are prepared to win every encounter in which she dodges towards you.
Again, there are NO instant and broken moves in boat pvp, you have to consider the damage and range that each character is threatening towards the other character. As another example, longbow kai is threatening what is essentially the entire room. So the other player must be careful in their approach to dodge and walk unpredictably, lest they get shot.
Going back to what you said about "attack spam", if a scythe evie is spamming their left click and right click, every good player ever will destroy them simply by outspacing them with stronger smashes. Since scythe evie does not have infinite range, they are susceptible to moves like Spear lann 2nd smash, sword lann 4th smash & thousand needles, kai longbow shots, hollow shot, karok blast, all of cestus karok's smashes, all of staff evie's smashes, and so on. The only character to my knowledge that is actually unwinnable against for many characters is Chainblades vella (who has some fair matchups but the majority are broken in her favour) and I think this is why you have this idea of "attack spam = AUTOWIN" since it looks to me like you main Vella.
As two last examples consider Cestus Karok: His threat range is less than most other characters via normal attacks and smashes, but every time he dodges or smashes he can threaten (use) Blast which has a ton of range and damage, so you can know - if he dodges or smashes, he is able to blast.
Last example is crossgun kai - his main abilities are hollow shot and spin smash, but he has to spin his bolt revolver to be able to use hollow, and one he presses it Kai steps forward a moment before he shoots, in this way it is telegraphed twice. And to spin smash he must first dodge. In this way Crossgun Kai plays somewhat differently than other characters because he literally has no instant moves, he must outspace, outtime and bait/mindgame to the extreme to win.
Please confirm whether you're looking at this as the perspective of every char (or at least the first 6-8, because those are the ones I am most familiar with) or if you're looking at it from the perspective of Chain Vella. Because Chain Vella attack spam legitimately does autowin against many characters and is broken I don't disagree, but the other characters can have very fair fights utilizing their spacing and timing.
You can think you know a lot about a subject but until you actually attempt to put those principles into practice, you won't know for sure.
I should add that I neglected to mention reading/predicting as one of the important skills, but I mentioned it on the previous page.
I also am aware that evie has two blinks, but I kept my response to one as if evie blinks on top of you, it makes it extremely hard to blink again and still be in range to hit you.
Lastly I use the definition of "instant moves" twice in my previous post; semi-instant normal attacks have extremely small range on every char (except cb vella, but we've been over this) which make them extremely easy to space around, and also easy to react to. However when I describe Crossgun Kai later, he literally has NO attacks whatsoever similar to this, he must always spin his revolver or dodge firstly. In this way his duels are different than dueling most other chars, because he does not have the threat of normal attacks that they do.
If every character's normal attack had the range of Havan's Pillar attack, then it would be broken (cb vella, again). However, none of the chars have considerable normal attack range - they are all very small, and thus easy to space around.
To make a long story short, you can predict all smashes because they require either normal attacks or a dodge first.
What you are describing to me sounds like you are imagining two characters actually touching each other the vast majority of the duel. But this is not the case in any pvp game.
View the following 10 second exchange in this video of Smash Bros. Melee (skip forward to 16:50)
Even if you don't know how the game plays, each character can threaten a certain range with their attacks, and the other player is attempting to space in and out of that range. Both of these players are world-class and you can see just how they mirror each other's movement with their spacing in and out. This is similar to what happens in boat PvP.
Not too clear on what power ranks you mean but if it's character ranking then this is what I think under the assumption that everyone has the same amount of skill level, stats, and/or gear:
Not entirely sure where to put Delia. Haven't really done any PvP in a long while so I don't know. PvP playerbase died so I kinda left that too.
DO NOT take this list seriously. It really depends on the person playing the character and other people may have different opinions about ranking the characters. This list is just what I think to be completely honest. This list is also mainly for Deathmatch so it'll obviously change around depending on the mode(Siege, Deathmatch, Boat PvP, Arena).
i can tell you this right now... Sylas is much higher up on that list if we take everything into consideration so much so that i've killed every other class including both kais with a breeze, in my book he's top 5 material for certain i only really struggle against spear lanns who know what they are doing and are geared to demi-god tier *cough Axel and Jay cough* or cestus karok's in general, everyone else i've thrashed or juggled into oblivion
Its just one list of a persons Opinion, 1 on 1 Arena the only classes the give me problems are Spear lanns(Axel) Free Match is a little different Bow kai doesn't do good when being hunted down by 3 people at once, but its workable, and about sylas idk why sylas is number 13 on that list I guess they don't have any good Sylas's on Eu in pvp. Sylas may not have big instant dps say like Flona/X-gun Kai but, I would say he has one of the best/easiest juggles to pull off, with hes crazy base speed he as almost impossible to catch.
It terms of Premiere vs XE differences in PvP, main difference will be the fact that we have auto-sprint as standard 'walk' without stopping stamina regeneration (it is also a cause of many bugs related to controls). So according to this, in Premiere, positioning with skills, dash abilities or range of hitboxes make more difference probably... which could put Sylas higher in the tier i guess.
But just to repeat, it's all subjective... so for example even tho Sylas may not be really difficult to me, it may be to someone else... it all depends strongly on personal design/skill. I've met many people in EU complaining on Sylas, but so as on any other character that exists in the game , however i don't use complaints of other people as indication to my list (because that would be very stupid, since most of people don't even have any idea about what they're talking - poor PvP knowledge xD). The list i have given is based on my personal judgement as experienced player who knows many ways about how to deal with any character in many situations.
So... my list is more of a 'statistical' representation of the characters, which starts with those who have the least 'weaknesses', or are easy to control (not much requiring) while at the same time they are very strong, or are generally strong.
By no means, it doesn't indicate whether you will struggle with some character or not... it all depends on your personal situation (how good you are, how good is your opponent, how much do you know about certain characters - generally knowledge, experience, etc.). And again... as mentioned earlier it still doesn't always apply, not only due to 'personal design' differences, but also depending on which character you play against which. So don't take these lists as something definite... neither mine or others.
PS. @Sylarius i will answer to your post when i will find more time (since it will most probably be another 'wall of text' xD).
Added edit:
I've had often situations when people would be like 'nerf Chain Vella', or 'nerf TS Vella', or 'nerf Lynn', or nerf whatever... basically any character i would enter to play, and i would defeat most of people like it would be literally nothing... getting tons of consecutive wins - people mostly tend to blame the character instead of accepting the fact that they have simply been defeated. It's hard for many people to accept that they have simply played worse (because EGO)... which is why you see so many different 'opinions' (not saying particularly about anyone in this thread, but in general... especially that i haven't played with most of you guys, like... ever - so i don't really know you ).
This is the reason why i don't give a sh*t about this stuff, because most of these are 'complaints' rather than 'opinions'... since a proper opinion should include a logic argument (which most of people don't give) that is based on some decent knowledge (which most of people just don't have), and not just some random rant, because someone has lost a game.
If it's about me in particular, i can give full logic explanation to all those characters regarding their 'tier' in my list (if anyone wants), however again... it won't be completely accurate in every situation due to reasons mentioned in my previous posts.
I'm not sure if XE changed recently but in premier, normals do not have any invincibility frames on them. MA on staff evie does not act as a lift move. There are probably more significant variations but I don't play that version of the game so I'm rather ignorant about those mechanics.
Then there is the stamina consumption differences between XE and premier classes which I would think is a fairly significant factor in how people play.
[QUOTE=Atherion] There are more major differences than just that.
I'm not sure if XE changed recently but in premier, normals do not have any invincibility frames on them. MA on staff evie does not act as a lift move. There are probably more significant variations but I don't play that version of the game so I'm rather ignorant about those mechanics.
Then there is the stamina consumption differences between XE and premier classes which I would think is a fairly significant factor in how people play. [/QUOTE]
Nah. I mean there are more differences, but not the things you mentioned.
If by 'invincibility frames on normals' you mean scythe evie - then it's long gone from XE, it was removed when evie revamp was released... (no other character ever had invul on normals). If it's about evie staff lift on normals - again, it's gone even longer... like 2 years or so. So yeah... the info you have is quite outdated .
If it's about stamina consumption, there are more differences in terms of PvE, tho not that much... however PvP has its own stamina consumption model, and i think it doesn't differ at all between Premiere and XE. The only difference if it's about stamina consumption on attacks - is on normals. In Premiere, normal attacks don't consume any stamina, while in XE they do.
If you want more PvP related differences, here you go: 1. Lann TS can not be grabbed on dodge in XE 2. XE Lann (in general) glides are vulnerable on crowd control (lift/knock) and do not knock opponent >>> exception: second glide of Spear Lann (it has invulnerability - not sure how it is in Premiere if it's about that) 3. Staff Evie - healing corona (XE version does not have it) 4. Chain Vella's 'LRR' combo (if lifted) in XE drops opponent after first hit of that spin attack (in Premiere it applies all hits if i remember well) 5. Karok is basically vulnerable right away after he drops on the ground from being lifted (you can easily abuse him) in XE - tho any other character can be abused as well basically, just needs proper timing (attacking when someone stands up after being knocked down - something that i consider abuse and don't use personally - unless opponent does that to me) 6. Premiere's auto-aim option has smaller range - in XE it scales with the range of attack 7. No Jump in Premiere 8. Etc.
There are other differences too, but they are basically strictly PvE related... like combo bonus which doesn't exist in Premiere for example.
Generally i have compared both versions in PvP, and the 'power' of characters isn't really much influenced by this stuff, aside from the walk/sprint system which i have mentioned in previous post. Auto-sprint in XE which works as standard walk, allows you for more significant position changing while regenerating stamina or whatever, or you can step close to opponent faster when you try to grab him... generally it changes 'the meaning' of positioning with abilities. However there are also tons of bugs in XE version, which are related with sprint, like: 1. unresponsive clicks (you click for example dodge - but game doesn't respond and you get hit) 2. you have to wait for animation of previous ability to end, before your clicks will respond for the next ability (not in all cases, some combos are strictly connected with each other and allow for combining controls, however there are many situations where in Premiere your clicks would respond, while in XE they don't because you have to wait for animation to end first) 3. ^due to above example - small openings created in between abilities (not because of player's wish, but because the game doesn't follow right away with another skill when you click it) 4. an opening at the beginning of animation, when it has already started (very short time frame - but it still exist), like you click dodge and you can see that animation clearly started - but you still get damage/lifted/knocked 5. controls - for example if it's about chain vella, when she chooses direction and clicks RMB, she will use Chain Mastery (the skill from TAB) instead of smash... which basically makes her unable to choose direction for her smashes with delay when she continues her attacks after dodge (Cut Across), something that i personally avoid by using auto-aim option from controls, which allows me not to click directional keys - so the game actually follows with proper smash 6. controls - Kai Bow (mostly on low speed attack) when using normal attacks, his bow 'stance' goes down all the time (sprint cancels animation), which creates many unresponsive clicks when he tries to shoot and breaks the intended timing of attack (in PvE = DPS issues as well) 7. Etc. etc.
Generally, tons of bugs/issues because of having auto-sprint with no way to turn it off (neither developers caring enough to fix these issues). So yeah, Premiere version will make things better for PvP in EU, especially for those good players, because now our clicks will respond properly every time whenever we'll need, so our intended actions will be actually performed ^^.
@DesireOfMine it is actually appalling to me that infinite juggling, recovery camping, huge lag and stats being not-fixed all exist in arena and people are so quick to insult boat pvp players and claim it is skill-less. You talk about infinite flinching (which is NOT a thing in boat pvp btw, because your armor will break causing you to get knocked down), yet you can get infinite juggled to death, OR recovery camped to death, both from one hit, in arena...
Arena has its own merits but I can not understand how fast people are to defend it against boat pvp, without even trying boat pvp.
After getting infinite juggled and recovery camped a ton more in arena I realize it's hilariously more broken/absurd than I originally thought lmao.
This post seems like I'm mad but idk, people's ignorance is what annoys me not people disliking boat pvp. ifrit
I've pretty much said all that can be said about boat pvp, I would just be repeating myself if I said anything more. Unless you have some points to counter what I've brought up, I can't see myself adding anything more of value to the conversation.
@DesireOfMine it is actually appalling to me that infinite juggling, recovery camping, huge lag and stats being not-fixed all exist in arena and people are so quick to insult boat pvp players and claim it is skill-less. You talk about infinite flinching (which is NOT a thing in boat pvp btw, because your armor will break causing you to get knocked down), yet you can get infinite juggled to death, OR recovery camped to death, both from one hit, in arena...
Arena has its own merits but I can not understand how fast people are to defend it against boat pvp, without even trying boat pvp.
After getting infinite juggled and recovery camped a ton more in arena I realize it's hilariously more broken/absurd than I originally thought lmao.
This post seems like I'm mad but idk, people's ignorance is what annoys me not people disliking boat pvp. ifrit
I've pretty much said all that can be said about boat pvp, I would just be repeating myself if I said anything more. Unless you have some points to counter what I've brought up, I can't see myself adding anything more of value to the conversation.
]
I don't know how it is in NA. But juggling/recovery camping in EU is pretty much non existent, anyone who would do that would get shamed indubitably, and henceforth no one juggles or plays in an unsportsmanlike conduct. It's about the players fixing the problem and correcting those who play in an unfair way for a fun experiences in arena. However if someone is stubborn about it, he/she simply gets a taste of his own medicine, and gets followed into every room, until he/she leaves the arena.
Ok @Sylarius, i have more time now to make the post :P First i will answer to your question. No, i don't look on it only from perspective of Chain Vella. I have played with all characters in game, and i know all of their mechanics. I don't really have my 'main' character... i use them all. Well i have those which i like mostly to play (currently f.e. Lynn/Arisha), however this is due to their advanced possibilities in terms of combat (being able to make complex patterns, adjust to many situations in various ways - i like more complex stuff).
Most of people recognize me from my Vella (DesireOfMine), because that was my first character which i have played the most and i've gained quite a lot of attention with it... however i do not limit myself to it. In fact lastly i don't play her almost at all, because they've removed grab from Chains, which is necessary part of basic counter-mechanic for PvP... and without it, gameplay becomes much less 'deduction based' (less interesting - to me at least).
With some characters i've played more, with some less... however i've spent enough time for every each of them to understand their mechanics in details, and therefore i keep my mind quite objective regarding all of the characters.
Alright, so let's start with the 'spacing'. I understand what you mean with it, and in this game video which you have provided or in some of the examples which you have given in Vindictus - it is viable, however it's not universal to all, or even most of the situations in Vindictus. Let's take that video from another game which you have provided as example.
You can notice very well that both players have very similar possibilities in terms of spacing. It's not like one character can only move few inches and has very short range, while the other can move very fast around and attack with much bigger range. They both have options to move around the map around equally effective to each other (and even if not all characters are like that, there are probably some mechanics implemented which compensate for lack of range/movement). Now, if you look at Vindictus... the differences in abilities if it's about their movement/range capabilities - differ from each other a lot, and they aren't adjusted whatsoever regarding interactions between one character versus another. All of the abilities are designed for PvE combat, where you use mostly invulnerability frames as your 'dodge' - not 'spacing'. They have started to add more importance towards 'spacing' in PvE along with season 3 bosses (red attacks or braha mechanics), and it works in general fine in there, but again - it's PvE, it's different type of combat.
Anyway, let's take an example of Braha. If you've tried many characters on that boss, you will know that for some characters it's much easier to avoid his attacks with proper 'spacing' and for some it's very hard, simply due to their movement capabilities. For example compare Evie Scythe with Lynn. Evie Scythe can move on distance very fast, not only her dodge has long range - but she can use it even twice, very fast one after another. Now Lynn? Lynn has short distance on dodge with slower animation than Scythe, which makes things much harder for her if she'd want to move fast on greater distance (avoid an attack). In either case, in PvE it's not as bad, because bosses have pre-attack animations and everything happens with precise timing - which means that they are literally 100% predictable for a player if he knows the boss... so characters like Lynn or whatever, can react on time and dodge an attack (even tho it's harder to perform than for a Scythe Evie f.e.).
Now if you look at PvP, again - the interactions aren't 100% predictable at all. 1. You can't know the exact timing 2. You can't know the exact positioning You can predict moves to some degree, based on your interactions with opponent and trying to understand how he thinks, but nevertheless - there is always uncertainty. And that's where the problem occurs, because in PvE those differences in capabilities of 'spacing' between characters - don't make things 'impossible' to perform, however in PvP (because things aren't precisely 100% predictable - ever) you can not react accordingly because you don't have capabilities for it. It's the same as i was explaining before with timing. The combat does not give you capabilities which would be necessary for certain interactions - by therefore leaving you without control over it, other words 'not skill-based'.
Let's take as example Hurk vs Lynn (just so you wouldn't think i only perceive things as Chain Vella). Hurk can pretty much chase people forever, move fast, in between having long 'knock resistance' with damage absorption... and exchange it with smashes right after which have also nice hitboxes as for 'dodge+smash' spam combination on melee character (also his dodge is an 'attack' as well). Lynn has pretty much no chance to escape - she can only engage. The chance of interrupting Hurk as Lynn is miniscule. Or Pillar Karok instead of Hurk, with his absorb which is active at least 50% of the time, and ability to attack right after dodge with not so small hitboxes either... and absorb on almost all of his attacks (plus his pillar counter damage - if you'd DARE to attack him back xD).
There are many situations, where 'spacing' is not gonna work, in fact it's not gonna work in most of the interactions that may happen between characters in dungeon PvP. IF characters abilities would be adjusted in terms of 'spacing', sure - but they aren't... which is why we have to rely on invulnerability frames in PvP interactions.
I assume that you wanted to dismiss my argument regarding 'timing - as not being part of dungeon PvP due to lack of capabilities', by introducing this 'spacing' as alternative counter-balance to defensive possibilities of player. However as i've explained - it doesn't work either, which moves the whole thing back to square one - meaning that there is no 'skill-based' timing in dungeon PvP, and therefore my conclusion stays as it was stated in my previous response.
I understand your perception regarding this kind of combat, however it just doesn't work properly in dungeon PvP, simply due to lack of proper capabilities. If characters abilities would be properly adjusted regarding their movement/range and invulnerability/block abilities - then yes, it could work... but they are not, because they were designed towards PvE combat. Also if you'd want to make it work for dungeon PvP, you'd have to basically change most of characters mechanics - basically make new characters , a whole different game.
Continuation in next post (cuz too many characters )...
Now if it's about your last post regarding Arena, one thing as @KuraiHotaru already mentioned - we do our best to teach people not to attack someone when they stand up after being knocked down, and there are many players in EU who follow this rule of 'mutual respect'.
Important thing to mention, is that dungeon PvP - is an organized 'meeting'. Meaning that you invite people which you know, people who follow the same rules as you do... which is why your understanding of it is probably quite biased in these terms, because you see in Arena random people, who don't understand your perception, people who do not join YOU, they join Arena PvP... and therefore you can not take them as example towards your 'dungeon PvP meetings', since it's a comparison of two different social environments.
If you'd want to compare dungeon PvP with Arena PvP in the same social environments (organizing it in groups of people who follow the same rules) - then Arena PvP wins by a lot. Same as @KuraiHotaru mentioned, i don't know how the situation looks exactly on NA servers, however from the few of my visits on your server and getting to know people in there, having conversations with them - i didn't see anyone who would try to 'spread common sense' in Arena within your PvP community.
In EU i'm also known as someone who 'talks too much' . I have gained a lot of haters over the years, i was probably one of the most hated players in EU server over some period of time. Luckily for me, i'm not a person who's affected by this stuff, as i mentioned in another post - i'm not really influenced by peer pressure, i can keep emotional distance and stay objective most of the time. Anyway, i would speak to people all the time, point them out things like 'attacking after knock' for example whenever they do it, and explain to them why it's wrong. Say it once, say it twice, say it ad nauseam - some people will start to hate you xDD, and some will make fun of it. Some people would see it as 'me complaining' and they would be wrong. I have a purpose in all of it - which is acknowledging people. Say it once, say it twice - it won't be noticed... say it ad nauseam - and some people will acknowledge it. This is how it started. People who would understand what i mean (or want to) - would start to follow this rule, and as more of them would do it over time... the bigger influence we would gain. Before, when i was pointing out to someone that he's abusing or whatever - i would receive mostly hate from players in Arena... but right now, when we have build our community of more knowledgeable players - many people support it, which means it's easier to convert more people into respecting 'fair play' rules in PvP.
I assume that in NA there was no one who would do this - which is why there is no rule like this, which would be respected by huge part of PvP community. In dungeon PvP it's easier, because it's always small group of people who are familiar with each other, it's basically a 'meeting' as i called it.
Now, we also organize sort of 'meetings' in Arena PvP. Sometimes we take off all the equipment and use only 0 level weapon from Ferghus to have equal stats, in general we can play in group of players and follow whatever rules we decide to follow - and this would be more comparable social environment to 'dungeon PvP' if you'd want to make 'measurements'. So in ^this scenario? We can have 1) no equipment depending 2) no abusing.
It's the same what i did with 'trading' in Arena. You probably know about this 'fashion' that ch.3 is 'trade channel', right? People tried to apply it in EU as well, but sure as hell i wouldn't allow it to happen . I was helping 'traders' back in the days when you couldn't get medals if you were losing all the time... simply because for some of the people it would be long and unpleasant process. However from quite some time, they have changed the 'reward system', so players who lose can get seals as well - which simply means that trading is no longer necessary. This is why these days, i perceive 'trading' as intrusion. It's kind of like i would enter some PvE boat and leech all the time - because i don't like PvE and i just came there for items and gold LOL xD. I don't mind people if they trade with each other (if both sides agree on it, in a way that it does not affect me or PvP environment in general)... however when someone starts to talk bullsh*t like 'ch.3 is trade channel' - i react immediately and prove how stupid is their statement. If they want to trade - cool, but don't tell people where to go or not... just because you're lazy, disrespectful ass, who doesn't give a sh*t about PvP and other people needs (not talking about you as 'you', but 'you' as in example if i would talk to someone who does that - just to point out ). Anyway, my point is that we've eradicated this problem from our server as well, same as we do with players who abuse. And just to point out - we're not being offensive or something, we simply explain things in logic way to explain our argument (being offensive is never good if you try to achieve a consensus xD).
Right now, most of the players who 'abuse' are people who are new to PvP, people who have no idea about it... simply because they have never played it, or heard about any of this. So the idea is that whenever we see someone doing it, we point it out and explain why it's wrong... simply, just to teach him (if he wants to play fair ofc). In this way we have less drama and more players who play together with us and enjoy this PvP system ^^.
Even if... let's say developers would want to fix this issue in Arena, all they have to do is to add for example 1 sec. invulnerability buff when someone stands up - and it's done. Nothing invasive, and very simple. However if you'd want to make 'dungeon PvP' to work properly... you would have to change distance/movement of animations, change attack hitboxes, change invulnerability/absorb/block time frames... etc. Tons of changes would be required to create a properly working dungeon PvP based on your model (the way you understand it) - and after these changes, it would be basically totally different characters, totally different game.
In Arena, the changes that were introduced to its basic mechanics are simple and general, which makes them much less invasive and at the same time very effective towards improving interactions between players, and creating skill-based gameplay (one, in which a player actually has a full control over his actions).
Same for equipment depending... all they have to do is to set fixed values for everyone whenever they enter Arena. Same as they have set minimum values of stats in Arena - they can as well just make them equal for everyone (all they need - is a will to do it).
Kommentare
Thanks ^^. Also just to point out, i'm sorry since it may seem a bit from my last posts that i'm just acting cocky and stuff... i don't usually wave everywhere with the screenshots of my wins at people, however when i'm called out and people doubt my words... idk, i guess that's just one of the things that i can do to prove my experience with this PvP system. So yeah, sorry for that. I don't think that i'm a better person than other people, i definitely have huge experience with Arena PvP in particular and i may do things very well in there... but there are things which i'm bad at as well, in which other people are better than me.
[QUOTE=Arrow95] http://imgur.com/xvl1M8h
28k wins is just crazy [/QUOTE]
I am CRRRRAAAAZZYYY +joy xD
[QUOTE=Sylarius] DesireOfMine I did not mean to insult you earlier, I was a little bit annoyed in my post but I am glad you and the other poster have explained where you are coming from. To me it just seemed like the average well-geared player that will praise arena and rag on boat pvp without actually being educated on either. I hope since you have a significant understanding of arena that you will consider my points on boat pvp and possibly try it with me if we are given the opportunity, as I am very confident in my abilities in boat pvp. (In addition, crossgun vs chainblades is one of the only fair fights that chainblades has nowadays; though I mostly play longbow in boat pvp now). [/QUOTE]
I'm sorry as well if i insulted you (didn't mean to). I'm a very direct person, i don't usually try to sweet talk or make my words more 'acceptable' in the way they sound... i just speak straight from my mind. So yeah, i called dungeon PvP 'skill-less', maybe i shouldn't... maybe better description for it would be 'less skilled than in Arena'... nevertheless, this is my opinion. I don't try to coerce anybody to think like me, i just share with my thoughts about what i know.
Maybe you're right and there is more to dungeon PvP than i see right now, however it just seems very unlikely to me at the moment. I was thinking a lot about this stuff (believe me), and i always end up at the same conclusion. I just think that the basic combat design from Arena is the way to go, rather than PvP based on PvE mechanics. I also think that developers think this way, because why would they introduce different mechanics to PvP if they didn't? So yeah, too bad only that they didn't finish what they've started and they focus mostly on PvE right now
There probably is some room for improvement in terms of dungeon PvP which makes one person better than another, however that 'room' is probably a lot smaller than the one in Arena PvP, which is why that is the part of game which i focus on.
For example i also have bad opinion about Free Match and Siege Match (even tho it shares the same mechanics as Arena), simply because this counter design which i've mentioned before (smash>dodge>grab>smash...) doesn't work properly in team fights. For example let's say that there are 2 players against you... and you dodge an attack of one person, however at the same time the other opponent grabs you... and even if you'd predicted both - there is nothing you can do, simply because this counter design doesn't work well with more than 1v1 interactions.
In either case... i have my opinion, people have theirs. I like this, people like this... everyone should do what they enjoy. So no matter what i say, i hope that you don't take my words as insult - because they aren't meant to be an insult.
If it's about playing together... again, as mentioned in previous posts. The issue is distance. You live in US, i live in EU. The ping between our locations makes PvP unplayable. Other words if i would join US server to play with you - i would play with 300+ ping for example (which makes Vindictus combat unplayable), and if you'd join EU server to play with me - then you'd be the one with 300+ ping. There is just no way for us to play together in normal way, unless one of us would physically move his ass to another continent
So if one day you will come for a visit to EU and you will have access to PC and will to play Vindictus
"Less skilled than arena" I don't know which requires more skill, but I do know that high level boat pvp requires immense skill, again you're trying to compare two different things without having tried one of them at all, and based on what you've said you hardly know anything about what boat pvp actually consists of...
Yes the developers think that way which is why they made arena but that is a different debate and the majority of boat pvpers on west disliked arena because many mechanics in arena are essentially dumbed down (SUPER lenient dodge frames, grab makes timing your stuff less important, huge amounts of latency, impossible to get out late smashes because normal attacks don't flinch, which makes chars like scythe evie much worse, timer makes hit -> dodge -> timeout easier). etc... many of the issues I and others have with arena, you prefer, and vice versa.
I dislike grabs in arena because it invalidates (or used to invalidate) normal attacks: so grab > every smash that's not R or LR, which is dumb, and also makes recovery camping possible.
I don't think that being able to read everything should make you invincible, there has to be a limit to how much you can do vs how much you can read, someone in a 1v2 situation should lose to generally good or correct choices made by the other two players.
As well, longbow makes for much more engaging duels in boat pvp you must admit, having free autoaim and multiple arrows shot in arena is lame.
Anyway long story short I just don't want people knocking stuff they haven't tried and calling it skill-less or listing stuff they believe but can't back up, this applies to any sport or hobby and there is a huge amount of talent, skill and hard work that go into everything and boat pvp is not an exception. I replied to how many of your perceived balance issues in boat pvp actually are beneficial and I hope you reconsider your view on not only boat pvp but all hobbies/sports/etc that you haven't tried, not all assumptions are wrong, but many can be. I only wish I could demonstrate them to you, I'll have to check my EU ping and see.
Yeah no offense taken in any case.
@Arrow95 Lets duel sometime. Are you in the Vindictus discord?
"Less skilled than arena" I don't know which requires more skill, but I do know that high level boat pvp requires immense skill, again you're trying to compare two different things without having tried one of them at all, and based on what you've said you hardly know anything about what boat pvp actually consists of...
[/QUOTE]
You keep assuming that i 'hardly know anything about boat pvp' - which isn't truth. Again - dungeon PvP has exactly the same mechanics as PvE, so even tho i may not have played much of the PvP itself in dungeon, and let's even ignore the fact that there is tons of description with videos regarding how skills work in PvE under letter [V] - i have played PvE myself as well, so i understand very well the mechanics that govern dungeon PvP.
I understand your perception, and i know what you're thinking. When i see someone inexperienced regarding Arena PvP, talking about it like he would know everything and trashing it - i would think the very same thing that you do about me right now. However, i do it mostly because of their TOTAL lack of knowledge regarding MECHANICS.
The difference between Arena PvP and dungeon PvP, is that opposite to dungeon PvP mechanics (other words PvE mechanics), Arena has literally no description whatsoever which would explain to a player how things work in there. Additionally most of the players, when they enter Arena, they expect things to work as in PvE - because that's the content which they have started with (that's the mechanics they are familiar with), and so when nothing works as they expected it to, some of them start to criticise, thinking that they have all the knowledge they need to judge it, while in fact they not only don't have the knowledge, but also no experience whatsoever regarding these MECHANICS.
Other words, what i'm saying is that you have wrong impression regarding my knowledge and qualifications to whether i'm capable of judging dungeon PvP or not. I'm pretty sure that testing it more in practice would give me more insight, indeed - i don't deny it, however it wouldn't be some kind of 'revelation' that would totally change my perspective, because i already know all of the basics and all the mechanics precisely.
Imagine this as mathematical equation where you have 3 values, 2 from which are known. By having that - a mathematician is capable of deducing them in purpose to receive the 3rd unknown value, without having it given on a silver platter. This is more accurate comparison, rather than your example with tennis.
I know how the mechanics work in dungeon PvP (1), and i know how interactions look like when two 'intelligent beings' fight against each other, i understand the process of thinking and what is possible/what's not, what is necessary for certain action to be possible/what's not (2). Therefore i can deduce whether these mechanics make any sense or not in terms of PvP interactions (3).
Continuation in next post (cuz too many characters, again xD)...
[QUOTE=Sylarius] Yes the developers think that way which is why they made arena but that is a different debate and the majority of boat pvpers on west disliked arena because many mechanics in arena are essentially dumbed down (SUPER lenient dodge frames, grab makes timing your stuff less important, huge amounts of latency, impossible to get out late smashes because normal attacks don't flinch, which makes chars like scythe evie much worse, timer makes hit -> dodge -> timeout easier). etc... many of the issues I and others have with arena, you prefer, and vice versa.
I dislike grabs in arena because it invalidates (or used to invalidate) normal attacks: so grab > every smash that's not R or LR, which is dumb, and also makes recovery camping possible.
I don't think that being able to read everything should make you invincible, there has to be a limit to how much you can do vs how much you can read, someone in a 1v2 situation should lose to generally good or correct choices made by the other two players.
As well, longbow makes for much more engaging duels in boat pvp you must admit, having free autoaim and multiple arrows shot in arena is lame.
Anyway long story short I just don't want people knocking stuff they haven't tried and calling it skill-less or listing stuff they believe but can't back up, this applies to any sport or hobby and there is a huge amount of talent, skill and hard work that go into everything and boat pvp is not an exception. I replied to how many of your perceived balance issues in boat pvp actually are beneficial and I hope you reconsider your view on not only boat pvp but all hobbies/sports/etc that you haven't tried, not all assumptions are wrong, but many can be.
[/QUOTE]
I understand now from above response, what is the reason which makes you think all this. I will have to go a bit deeper to explain you why i think that your perception regarding 'prediction vs timing' is inaccurate and leads to your current conclusions.
As i've mentioned in previous posts about PvE bosses - they are designed to be 100% predictable. When you start PvE battle for the first time in your life - you can not do 0 hit run, EVEN IF YOU'D BE THE MOST EXPERIENCED PVE PLAYER IN THE WORLD.
Now, think of the reason 'why'? The reason is because you don't know the animations and their PRECISE TIMING. So the process of learning/improving in PvE is as follows: 1) observe and learn animations 2) practice the timing
Now, the important part is the first part, which is 'learning animations'. What is important about it - is that these animations have PRECISE TIMING which is 100% predictable once you learn them. Dodge abilities in PvE mechanics are designed particularly for this purpose. They work in a way, that you're provided with some amount of invulnerability (depending on character design) to allow you dodge properly these attacks as long as you can perform well... by the same limiting the possibility to 'spam invulnerability' by adding sort of 'animation cooldown' that prevents you from using another abilities right after performing the dodge in some exact timing... so if you fail - you get hit.
Once you understand ^that, try to apply the same rules to interactions between two human beings.
Human beings AREN'T PROGRAMMED, and the game mechanics allow for adjusting the timing of attacks within single animation (you can use them a bit earlier or with delay)... meaning that for example, even if you'd seen a Scythe Evie doing dodge in your direction (expecting that she will attack) you CAN NOT precisely adjust/predict the timing - and the reason is because THERE IS NO DATA AVAILABLE WHICH YOU COULD USE TO DEDUCE SUCH INFORMATION. Not only that, but the attacks can be repeated one after another, which would make your prediction pointless EVEN IF YOU SUCCEED (especially that normal attacks knock opponent down), because you're prevented by 'animation cooldown' from performing any actions.
I guess in simple sentence you could describe it in a way that dodge abilities aren't adjusted in power, regarding the power of attacks, in a way that the offensive part of mechanics has too many possible adjustments with no indications given regarding its changes (no possible way to extract the data by which you could determine the timing) - by therefore making dodge abilities underpowered and poorly performing.
Other words what i'm saying, is that regardless of your believe, dungeon PvP ISN'T BASED ON TIMING, simply because the design doesn't allow for extracting the data to know the timing in the range of the dodge possibilities that you have given to avoid the attack.
Imagine a fight in real world, where you have predicted an attack towards your head, so you decide to lower your body in purpose to avoid incoming punch. Now, if your opponent will keep trying to hit you at the top and you'd be lowered down all the time - you avoid all these attacks, makes sense right?
Now, imagine it again in a form of 'PvE mechanics' where your dodge is designed to work only for 0.3 sec (as example) and at the same time leaving you vulnerable for the next 0.7 second of the 'animation' NO MATTER OF YOUR KNOWLEDGE OF INCOMING ATTACK. Other words in real fight it would look like this:
1) you lower your body to avoid hit
2) you expect/know that the next punch is coming, therefore you want to dodge it and you know how
3) but you can't, because for some reason your body says 'sorry mate, you've had only 0.3 sec available, now for the 0.7 sec you will get punched no matter of your will'
Get it?
The possibilities you have/not given to dodge, are inconsistent with the needs to defend from incoming attacks. It is not a matter of your 'skill' (personal performance) whether you succeed or not, it is simply the fault of mechanics which don't allow you to perform any action when necessary.
Now in case of Arena PvP mechanics, counter design has basically equal counter balance. If you predict all of the attacks - you're capable to avoid them, because you have given the possibilities to do so. There are no blind spots which would make you unable to perform an action that is necessary, simply because invulnerability lasts until you decide to make another action, so it's your decision whether you want to keep dodging because someone is trying to spam the sh*t out of you... or whether to engage in attack.
The issue is fixed. However now you ask... well, then what if someone will keep spamming invulnerability? The answer is grab. If you predict someone to dodge - you can counter it by using grab. What then if someone tries to grab me? The answer is smash - and it loops itself.
This system allows you for full control over your actions, and whether you get hit or not is determined ONLY by your personal performance (i'm excluding bugs that may happen in this statement, since i talk about basic counter design in here).
Continuation nr.2 in the next post (cuz again too many characters xDD)...
This is a conclusion that i'm pretty sure Developers had as well, because they have introduced these changes in the newer PvP modes - and they did it for a reason. Not to make things 'easier', 'dumbed' or 'lenient' as you'd call it... but to give people possibilities for full control over their actions (which simply isn't possible in dungeon PvP with PvE mechanics).
Dungeon PvP ISN'T BASED ON TIMING, because you have no possibilities given to respond accordingly.
On the opposite in Arena, you have everything. It's not only 'prediction based'.
1. First you need knowledge of mechanics/animations/characters abilities.
2. You need to observe opponent in REAL TIME (because people are not programs, so they don't act exactly the same every time), and make conclusions regarding his actions in purpose to deduce his next most probable move.
3. To do that, you don't only predict 'which ability' will be used, but you need to predict everything, meaning: a) ability, b) positioning, c) time frame (timing).
4. After prediction - you still have to make an ACTION, other words now you have to respond with proper counter ability, you need to perform it in proper positioning, AND YOU NEED TO DO IT WITH PROPER TIMING.
Other words, Arena PvP basic counter design does not only offer meaningful gameplay in terms of prediction of abilities, but also positioning and TIMING, which dungeon PvP isn't capable to provide. Simply because the mechanics prevent/limit you from performing any actions when necessary.
Attacking someone when he's unable to do a sh*t isn't skill-based, it's a flaw of the system that you're taking advantage of, simply because you can. This is why for example in boxing, when someone is stunned - they wait 10 sec to let him stand up if he's capable to do so, instead of allowing opponent to smash him into pieces. Or in honorable knight fights, if opponent is losing his weapon - they let him to retrieve it before the fight continues.
All of ^this, is for the purpose to determine 'pure skill' in exact sport... and for that, both opponents need to have all their options available, because if some mechanic isn't counter-able - therefore it doesn't determine someone's personal abilities, since he has no control over it.
[QUOTE=Sylarius] I only wish I could demonstrate them to you, I'll have to check my EU ping and see.
Yeah no offense taken in any case.
[/QUOTE]
Sure, np. If you decide on joining me in EU server, you can contact me by mail in game or via skype (i will send you my details in private forum message). Here are some of the characters which i use most often lastly:
Mrrrrau
Deductionist
DesireOfMine
[/QUOTE]
The best Kai in PvP is KuraiHotaru. You've already spoken with him in this thread.
"Human beings AREN'T PROGRAMMED, and the game mechanics allow for adjusting the timing of attacks within single animation (you can use them a bit earlier or with delay)... meaning that for example, even if you'd seen a Scythe Evie doing dodge in your direction (expecting that she will attack) you CAN NOT precisely adjust/predict the timing - and the reason is because THERE IS NO DATA AVAILABLE WHICH YOU COULD USE TO DEDUCE SUCH INFORMATION. Not only that, but the attacks can be repeated one after another, which would make your prediction pointless EVEN IF YOU SUCCEED (especially that normal attacks knock opponent down), because you're prevented by 'animation cooldown' from performing any actions."
I strongly disagree with this because you are not considering the other important skill I mentioned, which is spacing. Timing and spacing are the extremely important skills in boat pvp.
The difference between PvE and PvP is that in PvE, spacing plays way less of a factor - you can literally touch the boss the entire fight and take no damage. There are ein lacher Sword Lanns on Youtube that can no hit solo bosses with toy swords/meat cleavers/etc, simply because range hardly matters.
This is not the case in boat pvp, because the other player will simply normal attack you.
Say I'm fighting a sword lann in boat PvP.
His threat range is considerably far with thousand needles stab, but he must dodge before he does that. Otherwise he can only normal attack (which has very low range), or smash after one or more normal attacks (only the third and the fourth are really important because they have considerable range.) This means that EVERY dangerous attack by him DOES have a windup or indication that he can use it; therefore, I must precisely space myself to not get hit by it in the event he does use it, OR correctly time my dodge to dodge his smash (it has to be predicted and correctly timed).
If I am playing a similar character, than I have to correctly space my dodges and attacks to either cause him to miss and then hitting him (whiff punishing), or to hit him when he leaves himself open before he whiffs. This is the most basic form of the neutral game and this exists in pretty much every fighting game. You talk like characters have instant moves, and while they do, no good player is going to be touching the other player directly in boat pvp, unless one or both of them is horrible. So both players will be spacing around their normal attacks.
So why do you say "even if you'd seen a Scythe Evie doing dodge in your direction (expecting that she will attack) you CAN NOT precisely adjust/predict the timing - and the reason is because THERE IS NO DATA AVAILABLE WHICH YOU COULD USE TO DEDUCE SUCH INFORMATION. " ?
Every dodge in the game (at least before arisha, not sure about her/delia/sylas) can dodge blade shift lol. If evie dodges towards you she can either:
1) normal attack (this is NOT instant and leaves her open)
2) blade shift
3) let the dodge finish
therefore, the correct answer is to either smash (if your smash will outdamage her blade shift, AND stun her, because then you win the trade) or dodge if your current smash will NOT outtrade bladeshift. In this way, you are prepared to win every encounter in which she dodges towards you.
Again, there are NO instant and broken moves in boat pvp, you have to consider the damage and range that each character is threatening towards the other character. As another example, longbow kai is threatening what is essentially the entire room. So the other player must be careful in their approach to dodge and walk unpredictably, lest they get shot.
Going back to what you said about "attack spam", if a scythe evie is spamming their left click and right click, every good player ever will destroy them simply by outspacing them with stronger smashes. Since scythe evie does not have infinite range, they are susceptible to moves like Spear lann 2nd smash, sword lann 4th smash & thousand needles, kai longbow shots, hollow shot, karok blast, all of cestus karok's smashes, all of staff evie's smashes, and so on. The only character to my knowledge that is actually unwinnable against for many characters is Chainblades vella (who has some fair matchups but the majority are broken in her favour) and I think this is why you have this idea of "attack spam = AUTOWIN" since it looks to me like you main Vella.
As two last examples consider Cestus Karok: His threat range is less than most other characters via normal attacks and smashes, but every time he dodges or smashes he can threaten (use) Blast which has a ton of range and damage, so you can know - if he dodges or smashes, he is able to blast.
Last example is crossgun kai - his main abilities are hollow shot and spin smash, but he has to spin his bolt revolver to be able to use hollow, and one he presses it Kai steps forward a moment before he shoots, in this way it is telegraphed twice. And to spin smash he must first dodge. In this way Crossgun Kai plays somewhat differently than other characters because he literally has no instant moves, he must outspace, outtime and bait/mindgame to the extreme to win.
Please confirm whether you're looking at this as the perspective of every char (or at least the first 6-8, because those are the ones I am most familiar with) or if you're looking at it from the perspective of Chain Vella. Because Chain Vella attack spam legitimately does autowin against many characters and is broken I don't disagree, but the other characters can have very fair fights utilizing their spacing and timing.
You can think you know a lot about a subject but until you actually attempt to put those principles into practice, you won't know for sure.
I also am aware that evie has two blinks, but I kept my response to one as if evie blinks on top of you, it makes it extremely hard to blink again and still be in range to hit you.
Lastly I use the definition of "instant moves" twice in my previous post; semi-instant normal attacks have extremely small range on every char (except cb vella, but we've been over this) which make them extremely easy to space around, and also easy to react to. However when I describe Crossgun Kai later, he literally has NO attacks whatsoever similar to this, he must always spin his revolver or dodge firstly. In this way his duels are different than dueling most other chars, because he does not have the threat of normal attacks that they do.
If every character's normal attack had the range of Havan's Pillar attack, then it would be broken (cb vella, again). However, none of the chars have considerable normal attack range - they are all very small, and thus easy to space around.
To make a long story short, you can predict all smashes because they require either normal attacks or a dodge first.
What you are describing to me sounds like you are imagining two characters actually touching each other the vast majority of the duel. But this is not the case in any pvp game.
View the following 10 second exchange in this video of Smash Bros. Melee (skip forward to 16:50)
Even if you don't know how the game plays, each character can threaten a certain range with their attacks, and the other player is attempting to space in and out of that range. Both of these players are world-class and you can see just how they mirror each other's movement with their spacing in and out. This is similar to what happens in boat PvP.
Free Match is a little different Bow kai doesn't do good when being hunted down by 3 people at once, but its workable, and about sylas idk why sylas is number 13
on that list I guess they don't have any good Sylas's on Eu in pvp. Sylas may not have big instant dps say like Flona/X-gun Kai but, I would say he has one of the best/easiest juggles to pull off, with hes crazy base speed he as almost impossible to catch.
But just to repeat, it's all subjective... so for example even tho Sylas may not be really difficult to me, it may be to someone else... it all depends strongly on personal design/skill. I've met many people in EU complaining on Sylas, but so as on any other character that exists in the game
So... my list is more of a 'statistical' representation of the characters, which starts with those who have the least 'weaknesses', or are easy to control (not much requiring) while at the same time they are very strong, or are generally strong.
By no means, it doesn't indicate whether you will struggle with some character or not... it all depends on your personal situation (how good you are, how good is your opponent, how much do you know about certain characters - generally knowledge, experience, etc.). And again... as mentioned earlier it still doesn't always apply, not only due to 'personal design' differences, but also depending on which character you play against which.
So don't take these lists as something definite... neither mine or others.
PS. @Sylarius i will answer to your post when i will find more time (since it will most probably be another 'wall of text' xD).
Added edit:
I've had often situations when people would be like 'nerf Chain Vella', or 'nerf TS Vella', or 'nerf Lynn', or nerf whatever... basically any character i would enter to play, and i would defeat most of people like it would be literally nothing... getting tons of consecutive wins - people mostly tend to blame the character instead of accepting the fact that they have simply been defeated.
It's hard for many people to accept that they have simply played worse (because EGO)... which is why you see so many different 'opinions' (not saying particularly about anyone in this thread, but in general... especially that i haven't played with most of you guys, like... ever - so i don't really know you
This is the reason why i don't give a sh*t about this stuff, because most of these are 'complaints' rather than 'opinions'... since a proper opinion should include a logic argument (which most of people don't give) that is based on some decent knowledge (which most of people just don't have), and not just some random rant, because someone has lost a game.
If it's about me in particular, i can give full logic explanation to all those characters regarding their 'tier' in my list (if anyone wants), however again... it won't be completely accurate in every situation due to reasons mentioned in my previous posts.
I'm not sure if XE changed recently but in premier, normals do not have any invincibility frames on them. MA on staff evie does not act as a lift move. There are probably more significant variations but I don't play that version of the game so I'm rather ignorant about those mechanics.
Then there is the stamina consumption differences between XE and premier classes which I would think is a fairly significant factor in how people play.
I'm not sure if XE changed recently but in premier, normals do not have any invincibility frames on them. MA on staff evie does not act as a lift move. There are probably more significant variations but I don't play that version of the game so I'm rather ignorant about those mechanics.
Then there is the stamina consumption differences between XE and premier classes which I would think is a fairly significant factor in how people play.
[/QUOTE]
Nah. I mean there are more differences, but not the things you mentioned.
If by 'invincibility frames on normals' you mean scythe evie - then it's long gone from XE, it was removed when evie revamp was released... (no other character ever had invul on normals). If it's about evie staff lift on normals - again, it's gone even longer... like 2 years or so. So yeah... the info you have is quite outdated
If it's about stamina consumption, there are more differences in terms of PvE, tho not that much... however PvP has its own stamina consumption model, and i think it doesn't differ at all between Premiere and XE. The only difference if it's about stamina consumption on attacks - is on normals. In Premiere, normal attacks don't consume any stamina, while in XE they do.
If you want more PvP related differences, here you go:
1. Lann TS can not be grabbed on dodge in XE
2. XE Lann (in general) glides are vulnerable on crowd control (lift/knock) and do not knock opponent >>> exception: second glide of Spear Lann (it has invulnerability - not sure how it is in Premiere if it's about that)
3. Staff Evie - healing corona (XE version does not have it)
4. Chain Vella's 'LRR' combo (if lifted) in XE drops opponent after first hit of that spin attack (in Premiere it applies all hits if i remember well)
5. Karok is basically vulnerable right away after he drops on the ground from being lifted (you can easily abuse him) in XE - tho any other character can be abused as well basically, just needs proper timing (attacking when someone stands up after being knocked down - something that i consider abuse and don't use personally - unless opponent does that to me)
6. Premiere's auto-aim option has smaller range - in XE it scales with the range of attack
7. No Jump in Premiere
8. Etc.
There are other differences too, but they are basically strictly PvE related... like combo bonus which doesn't exist in Premiere for example.
Generally i have compared both versions in PvP, and the 'power' of characters isn't really much influenced by this stuff, aside from the walk/sprint system which i have mentioned in previous post. Auto-sprint in XE which works as standard walk, allows you for more significant position changing while regenerating stamina or whatever, or you can step close to opponent faster when you try to grab him... generally it changes 'the meaning' of positioning with abilities.
However there are also tons of bugs in XE version, which are related with sprint, like:
1. unresponsive clicks (you click for example dodge - but game doesn't respond and you get hit)
2. you have to wait for animation of previous ability to end, before your clicks will respond for the next ability (not in all cases, some combos are strictly connected with each other and allow for combining controls, however there are many situations where in Premiere your clicks would respond, while in XE they don't because you have to wait for animation to end first)
3. ^due to above example - small openings created in between abilities (not because of player's wish, but because the game doesn't follow right away with another skill when you click it)
4. an opening at the beginning of animation, when it has already started (very short time frame - but it still exist), like you click dodge and you can see that animation clearly started - but you still get damage/lifted/knocked
5. controls - for example if it's about chain vella, when she chooses direction and clicks RMB, she will use Chain Mastery (the skill from TAB) instead of smash... which basically makes her unable to choose direction for her smashes with delay when she continues her attacks after dodge (Cut Across), something that i personally avoid by using auto-aim option from controls, which allows me not to click directional keys - so the game actually follows with proper smash
6. controls - Kai Bow (mostly on low speed attack) when using normal attacks, his bow 'stance' goes down all the time (sprint cancels animation), which creates many unresponsive clicks when he tries to shoot and breaks the intended timing of attack (in PvE = DPS issues as well)
7. Etc. etc.
Generally, tons of bugs/issues because of having auto-sprint with no way to turn it off (neither developers caring enough to fix these issues).
So yeah, Premiere version will make things better for PvP in EU, especially for those good players, because now our clicks will respond properly every time whenever we'll need, so our intended actions will be actually performed ^^.
Arena has its own merits but I can not understand how fast people are to defend it against boat pvp, without even trying boat pvp.
After getting infinite juggled and recovery camped a ton more in arena I realize it's hilariously more broken/absurd than I originally thought lmao.
This post seems like I'm mad but idk, people's ignorance is what annoys me not people disliking boat pvp. ifrit
I've pretty much said all that can be said about boat pvp, I would just be repeating myself if I said anything more. Unless you have some points to counter what I've brought up, I can't see myself adding anything more of value to the conversation.
I don't know how it is in NA. But juggling/recovery camping in EU is pretty much non existent, anyone who would do that would get shamed indubitably, and henceforth no one juggles or plays in an unsportsmanlike conduct. It's about the players fixing the problem and correcting those who play in an unfair way for a fun experiences in arena.
However if someone is stubborn about it, he/she simply gets a taste of his own medicine, and gets followed into every room, until he/she leaves the arena.
First i will answer to your question. No, i don't look on it only from perspective of Chain Vella. I have played with all characters in game, and i know all of their mechanics. I don't really have my 'main' character... i use them all. Well i have those which i like mostly to play (currently f.e. Lynn/Arisha), however this is due to their advanced possibilities in terms of combat (being able to make complex patterns, adjust to many situations in various ways - i like more complex stuff).
Most of people recognize me from my Vella (DesireOfMine), because that was my first character which i have played the most and i've gained quite a lot of attention with it... however i do not limit myself to it. In fact lastly i don't play her almost at all, because they've removed grab from Chains, which is necessary part of basic counter-mechanic for PvP... and without it, gameplay becomes much less 'deduction based' (less interesting - to me at least).
With some characters i've played more, with some less... however i've spent enough time for every each of them to understand their mechanics in details, and therefore i keep my mind quite objective regarding all of the characters.
Alright, so let's start with the 'spacing'.
I understand what you mean with it, and in this game video which you have provided or in some of the examples which you have given in Vindictus - it is viable, however it's not universal to all, or even most of the situations in Vindictus. Let's take that video from another game which you have provided as example.
You can notice very well that both players have very similar possibilities in terms of spacing. It's not like one character can only move few inches and has very short range, while the other can move very fast around and attack with much bigger range. They both have options to move around the map around equally effective to each other (and even if not all characters are like that, there are probably some mechanics implemented which compensate for lack of range/movement).
Now, if you look at Vindictus... the differences in abilities if it's about their movement/range capabilities - differ from each other a lot, and they aren't adjusted whatsoever regarding interactions between one character versus another. All of the abilities are designed for PvE combat, where you use mostly invulnerability frames as your 'dodge' - not 'spacing'. They have started to add more importance towards 'spacing' in PvE along with season 3 bosses (red attacks or braha mechanics), and it works in general fine in there, but again - it's PvE, it's different type of combat.
Anyway, let's take an example of Braha. If you've tried many characters on that boss, you will know that for some characters it's much easier to avoid his attacks with proper 'spacing' and for some it's very hard, simply due to their movement capabilities. For example compare Evie Scythe with Lynn.
Evie Scythe can move on distance very fast, not only her dodge has long range - but she can use it even twice, very fast one after another.
Now Lynn? Lynn has short distance on dodge with slower animation than Scythe, which makes things much harder for her if she'd want to move fast on greater distance (avoid an attack).
In either case, in PvE it's not as bad, because bosses have pre-attack animations and everything happens with precise timing - which means that they are literally 100% predictable for a player if he knows the boss... so characters like Lynn or whatever, can react on time and dodge an attack (even tho it's harder to perform than for a Scythe Evie f.e.).
Now if you look at PvP, again - the interactions aren't 100% predictable at all.
1. You can't know the exact timing
2. You can't know the exact positioning
You can predict moves to some degree, based on your interactions with opponent and trying to understand how he thinks, but nevertheless - there is always uncertainty. And that's where the problem occurs, because in PvE those differences in capabilities of 'spacing' between characters - don't make things 'impossible' to perform, however in PvP (because things aren't precisely 100% predictable - ever) you can not react accordingly because you don't have capabilities for it. It's the same as i was explaining before with timing. The combat does not give you capabilities which would be necessary for certain interactions - by therefore leaving you without control over it, other words 'not skill-based'.
Let's take as example Hurk vs Lynn (just so you wouldn't think i only perceive things as Chain Vella).
Hurk can pretty much chase people forever, move fast, in between having long 'knock resistance' with damage absorption... and exchange it with smashes right after which have also nice hitboxes as for 'dodge+smash' spam combination on melee character (also his dodge is an 'attack' as well). Lynn has pretty much no chance to escape - she can only engage. The chance of interrupting Hurk as Lynn is miniscule.
Or Pillar Karok instead of Hurk, with his absorb which is active at least 50% of the time, and ability to attack right after dodge with not so small hitboxes either... and absorb on almost all of his attacks (plus his pillar counter damage - if you'd DARE to attack him back xD).
There are many situations, where 'spacing' is not gonna work, in fact it's not gonna work in most of the interactions that may happen between characters in dungeon PvP. IF characters abilities would be adjusted in terms of 'spacing', sure - but they aren't... which is why we have to rely on invulnerability frames in PvP interactions.
I assume that you wanted to dismiss my argument regarding 'timing - as not being part of dungeon PvP due to lack of capabilities', by introducing this 'spacing' as alternative counter-balance to defensive possibilities of player. However as i've explained - it doesn't work either, which moves the whole thing back to square one - meaning that there is no 'skill-based' timing in dungeon PvP, and therefore my conclusion stays as it was stated in my previous response.
I understand your perception regarding this kind of combat, however it just doesn't work properly in dungeon PvP, simply due to lack of proper capabilities. If characters abilities would be properly adjusted regarding their movement/range and invulnerability/block abilities - then yes, it could work... but they are not, because they were designed towards PvE combat.
Also if you'd want to make it work for dungeon PvP, you'd have to basically change most of characters mechanics - basically make new characters
Continuation in next post (cuz too many characters
Now if it's about your last post regarding Arena, one thing as @KuraiHotaru already mentioned - we do our best to teach people not to attack someone when they stand up after being knocked down, and there are many players in EU who follow this rule of 'mutual respect'.
Important thing to mention, is that dungeon PvP - is an organized 'meeting'. Meaning that you invite people which you know, people who follow the same rules as you do... which is why your understanding of it is probably quite biased in these terms, because you see in Arena random people, who don't understand your perception, people who do not join YOU, they join Arena PvP... and therefore you can not take them as example towards your 'dungeon PvP meetings', since it's a comparison of two different social environments.
If you'd want to compare dungeon PvP with Arena PvP in the same social environments (organizing it in groups of people who follow the same rules) - then Arena PvP wins by a lot.
Same as @KuraiHotaru mentioned, i don't know how the situation looks exactly on NA servers, however from the few of my visits on your server and getting to know people in there, having conversations with them - i didn't see anyone who would try to 'spread common sense' in Arena within your PvP community.
In EU i'm also known as someone who 'talks too much'
Anyway, i would speak to people all the time, point them out things like 'attacking after knock' for example whenever they do it, and explain to them why it's wrong. Say it once, say it twice, say it ad nauseam - some people will start to hate you xDD, and some will make fun of it.
Some people would see it as 'me complaining' and they would be wrong. I have a purpose in all of it - which is acknowledging people.
Say it once, say it twice - it won't be noticed... say it ad nauseam
People who would understand what i mean (or want to) - would start to follow this rule, and as more of them would do it over time... the bigger influence we would gain. Before, when i was pointing out to someone that he's abusing or whatever - i would receive mostly hate from players in Arena... but right now, when we have build our community of more knowledgeable players - many people support it, which means it's easier to convert more people into respecting 'fair play' rules in PvP.
I assume that in NA there was no one who would do this - which is why there is no rule like this, which would be respected by huge part of PvP community. In dungeon PvP it's easier, because it's always small group of people who are familiar with each other, it's basically a 'meeting' as i called it.
Now, we also organize sort of 'meetings' in Arena PvP. Sometimes we take off all the equipment and use only 0 level weapon from Ferghus to have equal stats, in general we can play in group of players and follow whatever rules we decide to follow - and this would be more comparable social environment to 'dungeon PvP' if you'd want to make 'measurements'.
So in ^this scenario? We can have 1) no equipment depending 2) no abusing.
It's the same what i did with 'trading' in Arena. You probably know about this 'fashion' that ch.3 is 'trade channel', right? People tried to apply it in EU as well, but sure as hell i wouldn't allow it to happen
This is why these days, i perceive 'trading' as intrusion. It's kind of like i would enter some PvE boat and leech all the time - because i don't like PvE and i just came there for items and gold LOL xD. I don't mind people if they trade with each other (if both sides agree on it, in a way that it does not affect me or PvP environment in general)... however when someone starts to talk bullsh*t like 'ch.3 is trade channel' - i react immediately and prove how stupid is their statement.
If they want to trade - cool, but don't tell people where to go or not... just because you're lazy, disrespectful ass, who doesn't give a sh*t about PvP and other people needs (not talking about you as 'you', but 'you' as in example if i would talk to someone who does that - just to point out
Anyway, my point is that we've eradicated this problem from our server as well, same as we do with players who abuse. And just to point out - we're not being offensive or something, we simply explain things in logic way to explain our argument (being offensive is never good if you try to achieve a consensus xD).
Right now, most of the players who 'abuse' are people who are new to PvP, people who have no idea about it... simply because they have never played it, or heard about any of this. So the idea is that whenever we see someone doing it, we point it out and explain why it's wrong... simply, just to teach him (if he wants to play fair ofc). In this way we have less drama and more players who play together with us and enjoy this PvP system ^^.
Even if... let's say developers would want to fix this issue in Arena, all they have to do is to add for example 1 sec. invulnerability buff when someone stands up - and it's done. Nothing invasive, and very simple. However if you'd want to make 'dungeon PvP' to work properly... you would have to change distance/movement of animations, change attack hitboxes, change invulnerability/absorb/block time frames... etc. Tons of changes would be required to create a properly working dungeon PvP based on your model (the way you understand it) - and after these changes, it would be basically totally different characters, totally different game.
In Arena, the changes that were introduced to its basic mechanics are simple and general, which makes them much less invasive and at the same time very effective towards improving interactions between players, and creating skill-based gameplay (one, in which a player actually has a full control over his actions).
Same for equipment depending... all they have to do is to set fixed values for everyone whenever they enter Arena. Same as they have set minimum values of stats in Arena - they can as well just make them equal for everyone (all they need - is a will to do it).