[NEW MERCENARIES] Please note that all new forum users have to be approved before posting. This process can take up to 24 hours, and we appreciate your patience.
Closed

Succubus Queen and the Rest Need to be 90+ Only

Comments

  • jjXjjX
    Vindictus Rep: 1,475
    Posts: 68
    Member
    If you reenact the same tired debate on the forums, people will look down on you lmao.

    See how that works? That previous sentence might not be true.

    But if you s[people][I PERSONALLY] it becomes 100% true.
  • AngelYukkiAngelYukki
    Vindictus Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 184
    Member
    I feel like OP changed his argument and some people are missing it (warranted due to the carrying statements in the first post):

    Argument
    Nif raids are very hard to do as a new player that reached lv 80.
    Scenario Example
    A group of 4 friends just hit lv 80 and decided to do Nif raids, only to get absolutely destroyed because the raid is difficult as they do not have enchanted/enhanced 80 gear that we had when the level cap was still 80. This sudden change in difficulty is very strange considering raids only start getting harder at S3.

    I feel like it's fine as it is right now.
    Players who do it for the first time will realize that it is a difficult raid. If they don't enjoy it, they probably touch it again until they get better gear.
    But tbh, with the difficulty of S1 and S2 raids, I feel like they would welcome the new change in difficulty. Not everyone wants to have a 2 min raid.

    I suppose it doesn't hurt to put a "This raid is much more challenging than previous raids!" message when boarding or something though lol.
    Or yea, getting it out of colhen/rocheste tab is a good alternative.
    BraveBlade2
  • BowtacojrBowtacojr
    Vindictus Rep: 2,545
    Posts: 335
    Member
    edited July 31, 2017
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    I feel like OP changed his argument and some people are missing it (warranted due to the carrying statements in the first post):

    Nope, it's been the same since I started, but I'm glad you're finally reading my posts.
    Bowtacojr wrote: »
    Not even sure this needs to be said, but the placement of the Niflheim tab in Colhen and Rocheste is extremely misleading for new players. Compared to literally every other boss under the 90 raids, these raids are impossible for anyone with 70-80 gear, so why is it even open to people starting at 80?

    Thing is, these players will join other boats just to be kicked because there's no way they'll have the stats to hold their own, so why even let them?

    It's also clear you haven't done a Nifl raid since the update, if sub 90 players with generic 80 (or even 70) gear join they will be nothing but dead weight, because the 80 gear gives something like 16-17k max, and players are unlikely to invest heavily to upgrade it. These bosses are tanky af, the need people reasonably geared, or at least 20k+, players to be able to keep the raid fun and not a 20-30 minute slog, you even risk running out of time if you're trying to carry 3 sub level 90s.

    It's quality of life tbh, new players don't get kicked, old players don't have to kick and look like the bad guys.

    It's a simple change, so why would you rather leave it as is and kick players that don't know any better?
  • hornywatermelonhornywatermelon
    Vindictus Rep: 3,985
    Posts: 467
    Member
    Bowtacojr wrote: »
    It's also clear you haven't done a Nifl raid since the update, if sub 90 players with generic 80 (or even 70) gear join they will be nothing but dead weight, because the 80 gear gives something like 16-17k max, and players are unlikely to invest heavily to upgrade it. These bosses are tanky af, the need people reasonably geared, or at least 20k+, players to be able to keep the raid fun and not a 20-30 minute slog, you even risk running out of time if you're trying to carry 3 sub level 90s.

    The HP doesn't scale anymore, it's set to 4 man party by default. Unless you can't solo it within reasonable time, the run won't be any longer with dead weights left and right.
    BraveBlade2
  • AngelYukkiAngelYukki
    Vindictus Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 184
    Member
    edited July 31, 2017
    Bowtacojr wrote: »
    Nope, it's been the same since I started, but I'm glad you're finally reading my posts.

    Not even sure this needs to be said, but the placement of the Niflheim tab in Colhen and Rocheste is extremely misleading for new players. Compared to literally every other boss under the 90 raids, these raids are impossible for anyone with 70-80 gear, so why is it even open to people starting at 80?

    Thing is, these players will join other boats just to be kicked because there's no way they'll have the stats to hold their own, so why even let them?

    It's also clear you haven't done a Nifl raid since the update, if sub 90 players with generic 80 (or even 70) gear join they will be nothing but dead weight, because the 80 gear gives something like 16-17k max, and players are unlikely to invest heavily to upgrade it. These bosses are tanky af, the need people reasonably geared, or at least 20k+, players to be able to keep the raid fun and not a 20-30 minute slog, you even risk running out of time if you're trying to carry 3 sub level 90s.

    It's quality of life tbh, new players don't get kicked, old players don't have to kick and look like the bad guys.

    It's a simple change, so why would you rather leave it as is and kick players that don't know any better?

    I've been reading your posts the entire time. Not sure why you'd assume otherwise.
    And sorry I'll change my statement. Your argument has been the same, but it seems as if your reasoning behind it has slightly changed to appear less conceited.

    And again, let's not make any assumptions. I have done the raids since the update. I had two members in my party who were 80-90 who were able to carry their own weight. I have also had the opposite. In both cases, the raids were still fun to me, and were under 15 minutes.

    On a side note, fun is subjective.

    SaphreeSaintGuinness
  • BowtacojrBowtacojr
    Vindictus Rep: 2,545
    Posts: 335
    Member
    edited July 31, 2017
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    And again, let's not make any assumptions. I have done the raids since the update. I had two members in my party who were 80-90 who were able to carry their own weight. I have also had the opposite. In both cases, the raids were still fun to me, and were under 15 minutes.

    Anecdotal evidence really isn't worth much, because there's no telling how many people would be willing to carry players though the raid and how many would simply kick them. It's not like it takes long to go from 80-90, and at that point, players have pretty readily available access to better gear that guarantees they'll do some damage even if they're bad a the raid itself.
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    On a side note, fun is subjective.

    True, but can you really say that you'd sit in a SQ for 20-30 minutes just to get the keys? The raid is fun, but when no other raid really takes that long, you can't justify it, so it's best to up the level requirement a bit to decrease the overall chance of players getting stuck into a long drawn-out raid.
    The HP doesn't scale anymore, it's set to 4 man party by default. Unless you can't solo it within reasonable time, the run won't be any longer with dead weights left and right.

    All the more reason to up the level limit, not many players still play this game, and even less do these raids, so you may not even have a full party of 4, and if half your party is sub 90, it just takes that much longer.
  • RadeRade
    Vindictus Rep: 1,020
    Posts: 39
    Member
    Doing runs with friends is usually more fun than running it yourself. Being an overgeared player and having the chance to show off a taste of higher level content to your friend and carry them through it while they work toward 90 can be fun. By raising the level cap, you'd be removing a possible experience from players that can be enjoyable. The only thing to be gained from restricting it is that players who don't want to deal with low level players will be saved a few moments of explaining to new players why they should not join. Not to mention quick battle has stat restrictions on par with S3 raids already anyway, and if you're doing non quick battle runs, you can set your own stat restrictions.
    For a more technical reason for why the level restrictions shouldn't be changed, and probably the reason why they didn't change them with Rise: bracelet gems. Bracelets are content that opens up and becomes available to help improve your stats at 80. Functionally, it doesn't make any sense to have a player unlock gear at 80 but be unable to do the battles that reward that gear until 90. Sure, people can buy them off the marketplace, but it doesn't make sense in the player experience. You could argue that they could bump unlocking bracelets back to 90 as well, but then you're nerfing players in the 80-90 range (albeit not by much), which is completely counter to all the design changes implemented with Rise, and players already have enough new complexities being thrown at them at one time for reaching 90 with composite materials, season 3 raids with actual mechanics, material synthesis, and component dismantling. It does not make sense to change the level ranges on this stuff while trying to help new players break into the game.
    SaphreePixelPantsuSlothPrincess
  • AngelYukkiAngelYukki
    Vindictus Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 184
    Member
    edited July 31, 2017
    Bowtacojr wrote: »

    Anecdotal evidence really isn't worth much, because there's no telling how many people would be willing to carry players though the raid and how many would simply kick them. It's not like it takes long to go from 80-90, and at that point, players have pretty readily available access to better gear that guarantees they'll do some damage even if they're bad a the raid itself.

    Players who don't want to carry can simply kick. It's not rude if you simply address it politely.
    "Hi, I don't want this run to take long and your gear isn't up to par, so I'll be kicking you. Sorry."
    Bowtacojr wrote: »
    True, but can you really say that you'd sit in a SQ for 20-30 minutes just to get the keys? The raid is fun, but when no other raid really takes that long, you can't justify it, so it's best to avoid upping the level requirement a bit to decrease the overall chance of players getting stuck into a long drawn-out raid.

    Nif for me isn't about getting keys but for the challenge. I'd much rather just buy the stuff straight off mp.
    Similarly, for other players, maybe they want the challenge.
    If you don't want the challenge, kick undergeared players. If the newer players don't want the challenge, they won't do the raid again until they're geared more. One attempt honestly does not take that long.

    And I'm still not sure how the runs are taking you 20-30 minutes, unless you're the only one that's geared and all your teammates happen to be ungeared. Even then, I don't think it should be taking that long.

    Also lol
    Bowtacojr wrote: »
    it's best to avoid upping the level requirement a bit to decrease the overall chance of players getting stuck into a long drawn-out raid.
  • BowtacojrBowtacojr
    Vindictus Rep: 2,545
    Posts: 335
    Member
    edited July 31, 2017
    Rade wrote: »
    It does not make sense to change the level ranges on this stuff while trying to help new players break into the game.

    The enter key exists for a reason.
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    Players who don't want to carry can simply kick. It's not rude if you simply address it politely.

    I'd rather save time and not have to deal with them at all.
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    And I'm still not sure how the runs are taking you 20-30 minutes, unless you're the only one that's geared and all your teammates happen to be ungeared.

    You're right, I don't see many high level players do these anymore, which reinforces the idea that new players need to be at least somewhat geared to make up for that.

    Maybe we should bump that restriction up to 95 instead. :^)
  • AngelYukkiAngelYukki
    Vindictus Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 184
    Member
    Bowtacojr wrote: »

    The enter key exists for a reason.

    Read other people's stuff if you tell people to read your stuff. Rade made some very sound arguments.
    Bowtacojr wrote: »
    I'd rather save time and not have to deal with them at all.

    Don't have to kick them if you put requirements on your boat. Or just do quick battle which already has the requirements?
    Bowtacojr wrote: »
    You're right, I don't see many high level players do these anymore, which reinforces the idea that new players need to be at least somewhat geared to make up for that.

    Maybe we should bump that restriction up to 95 instead. :^)

    If you can't clear under 20min, I guess you aren't one of these geared players? :^)
    Thisisajokedonttakeitseriously

    Having low amounts of high level players doing it seems very unlikely, considering
    Bowtacojr wrote: »
    It's not like it takes long to go from 80-90

    Now that I actually log on and look at creating a party for Nif raids, I don't see why raising the cap is necessary when quick battle already has the att requirement so high. Newer players should already be able to tell that it'll be a hard raid. There's even a "you can't revive if you are incapacitated during the battle."

  • BowtacojrBowtacojr
    Vindictus Rep: 2,545
    Posts: 335
    Member
    edited July 31, 2017
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    Read other people's stuff if you tell people to read your stuff. Rade made some very sound arguments.

    Why are you assming I didn't read it, if you're just going to look for places to attack me then stop posting, it's pointless. Either way, none of it is all that relevant to the concern of the raid balance itself.

    AngelYukki wrote: »
    Don't have to kick them if you put requirements on your boat. Or just do quick battle which already has the requirements?

    It's simpler to just limit the level, then no one would have to sort through filters to do a raid. Plus sub 90 players can still make the boats themselves, and unless they get a carry, it's just a waste of time for them.
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    Having low amounts of high level players doing it seems very unlikely, considering

    Then why are you arguing with me? You just admitted that it's easy to hit 90, so why are you so against barring a 90 raid to 90+ players only?




  • SaphreeSaphree
    Vindictus Rep: 2,280
    Posts: 273
    Member
    edited July 31, 2017
    Bowtacojr wrote: »
    I'd rather save time and not have to deal with them at all.

    implying it takes more than 2 seconds to kick someone from the boat
    AngelYukki
  • AngelYukkiAngelYukki
    Vindictus Rep: 2,100
    Posts: 184
    Member
    edited July 31, 2017
    Bowtacojr wrote: »

    Why are you assming I didn't read it, maybe not assume things of other people, it's rude. Either way, none of it is all that relevant to the concern of the raid balance itself.


    It's simpler to just limit the level, then no one would have to sort through filters to do a raid. Plus sub 90 players can still make the boats themselves, and unless they get a carry, it's just a waste of time for them.

    Then why are you arguing with me? You just admitted that it's easy to hit 90, so why are you so against barring a 90 raid to 90+ players only?



    Well I'll apologize for assuming. That was quite hipocritical of me - it seemed to be a safe assumption as you did not even bother to respond to them.
    But hey at least my assumption had reasoning behind it and I apologized ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

    Not completely sure what filters you're talking about. All you have to do is open quick battle and choose the raid you want
    Sub 90 players that make their own party will waste 30 min of their time if they're unlucky. Chances are the other party members will be able to clear it under 20. If they're extremely unlucky, they won't clear it, which is honestly very unlikely, but regardless, the possibility is there and 30 min is wasted. Honestly not that big of a deal.

    I'm against raising the level as I think it's unnecessary
    But here's some example scenarios
    - Returning players under 90 may want to do it (ex: to reminisce without having to grind). Even better if it's challenging for them as it'll give them a goal compared to if they just did s1 and s2 stuff.
    - There are quite a few competent players - or along the same lines, old players making new characters that want drops
    - I dislike putting content behind bars (reminds me of BDO where you grind to 50 and a message pops up saying 'this is where you actually start to play the game!'). Who knows. Maybe a new level 80 player would get bored to grind to 90 and quit without being able to actually play the game - and that's not what we want.

    Regardless, at the end of the day, all this arguing is useless as they won't change it so lolripyou
    SaphreeBraveBlade2
  • SaphreeSaphree
    Vindictus Rep: 2,280
    Posts: 273
    Member
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    Regardless, at the end of the day, all this arguing is useless as they won't change it so lolripyou

    Honestly I can't remember the last time a community suggestion was put into effect, there's no point behind this post besides complaining really.
    AngelYukkiBraveBlade2
  • KuraiHotaruKuraiHotaru
    Vindictus Rep: 1,435
    Posts: 37
    Member
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    Bowtacojr wrote: »

    Why are you assming I didn't read it, maybe not assume things of other people, it's rude. Either way, none of it is all that relevant to the concern of the raid balance itself.


    It's simpler to just limit the level, then no one would have to sort through filters to do a raid. Plus sub 90 players can still make the boats themselves, and unless they get a carry, it's just a waste of time for them.

    Then why are you arguing with me? You just admitted that it's easy to hit 90, so why are you so against barring a 90 raid to 90+ players only?



    Well I'll apologize for assuming. That was quite hipocritical of me - it seemed to be a safe assumption as you did not even bother to respond to them.
    But hey at least my assumption had reasoning behind it and I apologized ¯\_(ツ)_/ ¯

    Not completely sure what filters you're talking about. All you have to do is open quick battle and choose the raid you want
    Sub 90 players that make their own party will waste 30 min of their time if they're unlucky. Chances are the other party members will be able to clear it under 20. If they're extremely unlucky, they won't clear it, which is honestly very unlikely, but regardless, the possibility is there and 30 min is wasted. Honestly not that big of a deal.

    I'm against raising the level as I think it's unnecessary
    But here's some example scenarios
    - Returning players under 90 may want to do it (ex: to reminisce without having to grind). Even better if it's challenging for them as it'll give them a goal compared to if they just did s1 and s2 stuff.
    - There are quite a few competent players - or along the same lines, old players making new characters that want drops
    - I dislike putting content behind bars (reminds me of BDO where you grind to 50 and a message pops up saying 'this is where you actually start to play the game!'). Who knows. Maybe a new level 80 player would get bored to grind to 90 and quit without being able to actually play the game - and that's not what we want.

    Regardless, at the end of the day, all this arguing is useless as they won't change it so lolripyou

    That's exactly what happened to my girlfriend, I was away on vacation for 3 weeks, before I left I introduced the game to her, She played lynn and was having a lot of fun, until she got to around 82 and started doing some s3 bosses. Sadly she got kicked from most because she didn't have the requirements. When I came back from the vacation I asked how she was doing. And she told me she quit, when I asked her why. She responded with she could barely find any raids due to getting kicked from the boats. When I told her I'll be hosting the boats now that I am back, she declined and told me that we should just continue play the other game.

    People don't realize this when putting restrictions on boats, we are in need of new players and we should take care of them help them out. But instead they want to finish the raid in sub 5minutes. Not thinking that kicking people can make them quit the game if they've been kicked a few times before already.
    SlothPrincess
  • BowtacojrBowtacojr
    Vindictus Rep: 2,545
    Posts: 335
    Member
    edited July 31, 2017
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    it seemed to be a safe assumption as you did not even bother to respond to them.

    The bracelet gem argument they had just seems too irrelevant to cover, it's not like they're worth all that much, so sub 80 players won't be missing anything if they had to wait to 90 to get the keys.

    Plus if they do decide to try and farm for keys, then it's just more boats they'll get kick from, according to everyone in this thread.
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    Sub 90 players that make their own party will waste 30 min of their time if they're unlucky.
    I'm against raising the level as I think it's unnecessary

    People in this thread have already expressed opinions that they don't like the raid or it's rewards, which means the pool of geared players for sub 90s to get lucky to carry them is likely going to be low.

    So now we've got new players sitting in boats for 15-20 minutes waiting for strong players to join because they don't know that Succubus Queen doesn't drop anything that a geared player would want to raid for. Sure, they'd be doing the same thing at 90, but they'd at least have the stats to hold their own.

    AngelYukki wrote: »
    Regardless, at the end of the day, all this arguing is useless as they won't change it so lolripyou

    I feel like the Rise update invalidates this claim, considering everything changed with that.
    It's simply lovely how you contradicted yourself so quickly in the span of 50 words.

    Oh look, it's a person who can't help but insult and shame others when they're in an argument.

    It's not about the attack a player has, it's about how much attack they can feasibly obtain with the gear that's avalible.

    If they're 90, they can get better gear easier to do raids that have bosses with 90 stats.

    I don't feel like reading the rest of you posts because if you're just going to attack me, you should keep your opinions to yourself.

  • TrueAngelBloodTrueAngelBlood
    Vindictus Rep: 530
    Posts: 5
    Member
    Pointless elitist thread
    SlothPrincessBraveBlade2
  • Arrow95Arrow95
    Vindictus Rep: 2,515
    Posts: 491
    Member
    ..... wow do people even have a brain, not talking to you (Bowtacojr)
    Bowtacojr
  • BowtacojrBowtacojr
    Vindictus Rep: 2,545
    Posts: 335
    Member
    Arrow95 wrote: »
    ..... wow do people even have a brain, not talking to you (Bowtacojr)

    Pretty much, it's painfully clear who did read my actual post and who's just coming in here thinking that I hate new players and want Vindictus to die.

    But at this point it doesn't matter, I just wish the illiterates would leave my thread alone.
  • CloakshireCloakshire
    Vindictus Rep: 4,580
    Posts: 646
    Member
    edited August 1, 2017
    I chose not to vote on the OP's poll because the available options force you to say yes or not have an opinion. I'll keep this short and sweet.

    Do I think we should hide Nif raids from people lower than 90?

    No

    Do I think that a "No," should have been included as a choice in this poll?

    Yes
    SaintGuinness
This discussion has been closed.