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People, the game lags even with 4 players in a raid and you only have to take into account AI movement.
Now you try and transfer that movement, hit box, and everything to another character and you think it's going to be better somehow?
The most powerful characters in PvP are those with large aoe attacks that can hit outside of dodge range as well as characters with spammable movement/invincibility.
This means characters like Karok, Hurk, and xgun Kai are simply ridiculous in PvP.
If you're playing something else then you better pray.
You can literally be a screen and a half away from a xgun Kai but his Hollow Shot will still damage you.
You can literally attack a Hurk all day but he'll just block frame through all of your damage.
It's stupid, it's a waste of time, and the saddest part is that there are people out there who think PvP is worth something and they play it a lot with their Hurk/Kai thinking they are good at the PvP mode or something when in fact they're just playing a character that is better able to use it.
You don't ever hear a Vella or Delia saying PvP mode is the greatest. It's always some Hurk or some xgun Kai thinking PvP mode is really good.
Why? Because from their point of view it is good, they do damage and get kills all the time and they don't die as often because they can spam their defense move. Their attacks hit a large area and will hit players through the lag even when the other player is dodging half a screen away.
If you're playing sword Vella you have nothing. Cross cut doesn't work, your attacks are really slow by comparison and hit only a really small area, your dodge is not as spammable and doesn't give invincibility the same way Kai's roll or Hurk's impenetrable does. So you literally suck at it.
You can spend all your time as sword Lann playing PvP and you'll still lose to some xgun Kai rolling back and forth firing Hollow Shot into random areas as the lag just drops damage onto you while you do nothing to him.
If you don't believe me you can hook up two computers right next to one another.
Go PvP with both of those computers. Set up a camera, dodge on computer A and watch when the dodge is shown to happen on computer B.
You are not fighting another player when you play PvP. You are literally chasing and attacking some random ghost image and it is never where they are or doing what they are actually doing. Because of this, large aoe attacks that will buffer through the lag and spammable invincibility moves are OP.
It's simply not a viable code to be competitively playing PvP on. Morever, the balance of the characters themselves precludes any kind of meaningful gameplay with respect to player skill.
I used to make posts in here and it was always some player like xgun Kai or some Hurk claiming PvP was really good and was really competitive.
At that time I had a really well equipped xgun Kai and Hurk myself. I always requested that if they thought they were good at PvP they can play on a sword Vella, we can normalize the the equipment, and then I'll play xgun Kai and we can PvP. Because I don't even play PvP a lot but I'm 100% sure I could've killed them just by spamming dodge and Hollow Shot at a sword Vella while she has to beg lag to do damage to me.
The chasing ghosts and shadows thing is already apparent in normal PvP gameplay. Sometimes you'll hit a person but no damage will register. Why? Because on their screen when your attack went in they were in invincibility and/or were nowhere near you. So again, things like Hurk that can spam impenetrable around and not ever really be hit, or xgun Kai that can spam dodge around and hit a huge area with Hollow Shot, they are op. Or hopping Evie. etcetc.
Like... I can't comprehend the stupidity of PvP, and it's so sad that some people think it's a good game mode.
After all I've read, I've come to the conclusion, Git Gud.
just beacuse you cant win, doesnt give you the right to talk down on this pvp mode, rememer this isnt pve, your not fighting computer bots, Pvp and Pve are totaly different am sure you know that but do you really??
Yes not every class is 100% balanced/fair, but everyclass as there weakness's, you need to learn the class your fighting/learn the timing of there dodge and your attacks.
Basically there are some rules applied in PvP which you need to discover on your own. In this case, cross-cut in PvP only works if you do a smash before going to cross-stance, otherwise it'll fail. If you don't do a smash attack before going to xstance you'll get knocked back, so with that logic the only attacks you'll be able to counter are normal attacks. The bad thing about xcuts in PvP is that they give invulnerability only on the second half of it's animation, meaning that you'll take damage upon impact. Also it's good to use Wind Rider to transform your blade heart into SP which would later allow you to use Sword's will. In this video I had no need to spam Wind Rider because this was an event artifact that gave 2 bars of SP. Swords will will enhance your xcuts a lot and you'll deal quite a lot of damage as you could've seen in the vid.
The way this works is that smash before going to xstance is "enhancing" it giving it knock resistance, which can be viewed on another example. If you charge your Gust Sting (Holding RMB) you will only have knock resistance upon releasing the attack, not while charging. But there is only one exception in that... If you do shift + RMB + RMB and then start charging the Gust sting straight after you finish the combo your last smash will grant you knock resistance while charging it.
It's stupid, it's a waste of time, and the saddest part is that there are people out there who think PvP is worth something and they play it a lot with their Hurk/Kai thinking they are good at the PvP mode or something when in fact they're just playing a character that is better able to use it.
You don't ever hear a Vella or Delia saying PvP mode is the greatest. It's always some Hurk or some xgun Kai thinking PvP mode is really good.
I play pvp on my lynn and delia. I think I do pretty well in pvp using them. As a delia user I think pvp mode is great but not perfect. I've also used vella to pvp she's really fun to use when you build up your sp by cancelling blade heart stacks then activate slashing high. You become almost invulnerable by spamming your dodge and smashes with slashing high activated. Also crosscut only works when the person uses normal attacks so you need to be smart about it on when to use it and not just pray that it works. However I do think hurks and kai requires less learning cause their mechanics seems pretty easy to use compared to other classes.
PvP? You mean that thing in most MMOs where people trade kills to get the rewards since it's not fun or balanced at all to do otherwise?
People should stop doing PvE cause that is unbalanced too. You're not going to be able to out damage a +15 lvl 90 whale in Neam especially after the Rise patch where the additional dmg gave those whales even more of an advantage. At least in PvP I have higher chance of beating a whale hurk than in PvE and I've done this using a Lynn. Besides what is so fun of just doing PvE all day its so easy to memorize the boss's attack pattern its not even a challenge. At least in PvP the patterns changes depending on the player.
Every MMO out there with a viable PvP system uses queues so you can't trade your seals/points so easily.
Of which there are only a few, and even with queues players still trade kills because the entire community knows to do so. The only game I haven't seen this in is S4 League and that's because there's no real benefit to raising rank in that game.
People should stop doing PvE cause that is unbalanced too.
Not when it comes to PvM. If anything, PvE at endgame is just PvP using mobs as scoreboards, and to that extent it is unbalanced - but you can't tell me that guilds don't work together to rig the mechanics in their favor. But true PvM - a battle of skill and wits against monster AIs - tends to be far more balanced in MMOs than PvP, as PvM is what most MMO developers focus on. While P2W does get in the way of that, PvM still remains more balanced compared to PvP because developers just don't care about fixing PvP; even games like ArcheAge, which claim to be designed for PvP, suffer from developer apathy for PvP balance.
Every MMO out there with a viable PvP system uses queues so you can't trade your seals/points so easily.
Of which there are only a few, and even with queues players still trade kills because the entire community knows to do so. The only game I haven't seen this in is S4 League and that's because there's no real benefit to raising rank in that game.
Yeah, i wasn't so accurate. In a free-for-all deathmatch you can trade kills (although it's still not so easy), but not if you are put into a random team and if the pvp points/seals aren't distributed based on kills. Maybe if you manage to sabotage your team somehow. This is how it used to work in Tera for example, and even if you queued up with a premade for the 3v3 arena the enemy team was the next one in the queue with an average item level similar to your team's, but you could only guess who they will be.
PvP? You mean that thing in most MMOs where people trade kills to get the rewards since it's not fun or balanced at all to do otherwise?
People should stop doing PvE cause that is unbalanced too. You're not going to be able to out damage a +15 lvl 90 whale in Neam especially after the Rise patch where the additional dmg gave those whales even more of an advantage. At least in PvP I have higher chance of beating a whale hurk than in PvE and I've done this using a Lynn. Besides what is so fun of just doing PvE all day its so easy to memorize the boss's attack pattern its not even a challenge. At least in PvP the patterns changes depending on the player.
T H A N K Y O U. But let me rephrase their argument. The reason why they don't like PvP is not only "balancing" but because they can't win. In PvP, as you already know, mechanics work differently than in PvE. Also, because PvE in Vindictus is so easy (Learn pre-animations + adjusting the timing = PvE) they are used on being OP. When they're put in arena PvP they will always find something to complain. Sure, it's not balanced nor fair sometimes but you can in theory beat anyone if you play with perfect deduction. There is not a single move in PvP which you just "CAN NOT AVOID/DODGE".
People should stop doing PvE cause that is unbalanced too.
Not when it comes to PvM. If anything, PvE at endgame is just PvP using mobs as scoreboards, and to that extent it is unbalanced - but you can't tell me that guilds don't work together to rig the mechanics in their favor. But true PvM - a battle of skill and wits against monster AIs - tends to be far more balanced in MMOs than PvP, as PvM is what most MMO developers focus on. While P2W does get in the way of that, PvM still remains more balanced compared to PvP because developers just don't care about fixing PvP; even games like ArcheAge, which claim to be designed for PvP, suffer from developer apathy for PvP balance.
I can agree with most of what you've said, but this is a pretty stupid argument to make "Not when it comes to PvM. If anything, PvE at endgame is just PvP using mobs as scoreboards, and to that extent it is unbalanced ". I'm not sure with what logic did you use compare one to another even at end-game PvE. PvP you're using deduction to try and figure out what your opponent will do, you can't rely on pre-animations as they don't exist in PvP(in 95% of the attacks) and EVERY attack in PvE has pre-animations on which you can rely. That's why I don't see the connection between these two but with the rest I agree. MMO's tend to focus more on PvE since it'll have a larger audience than PvP, most of the time at least.
In any case... The thing is how people view games and what their goal is. For example, for me I couldn't care less about max stats as they only change my numbers in damage. I can get 0 personal development from having higher stats. However, people on the other hand like to do the opposite. Play for stats and they like to be rewarded in items and that's completely fine. One of people's arguments against PvP is that it's not "rewarding" content as they easily get their artifacts by trading. It was suggested in the old forum EU, how to make PvP more enjoyable for everyone.
REMOVE EQUIPMENT DEPENDING
Easy method: Just put fixed stats in arena for every class. Hard method (Unlikely to happen): Also keep in mind that I don't mean ALL characters to have the same stats. Every class in Vindictus is affected by stats differently so this is what Nexon could do... Gather players who are experienced in PvP and who know how it works to help them out test things and find the best stats for each class. Of course it'd take a while but this is the most efficient way of doing it, in my opinion at least.
ADD A RANKING SYSTEM AND REWARDS FOR IT
After the first thing has been done - balancing equipment depending, you could move on to adding a ranking system (Similar to one in League of Legends and Blade and Soul). Make season rewards for it. For example the person who would end up with the highest rank would get a special title/costume/glow anything really. It doesn't have to necessarily affect his stats or make him have a boost in either PvP or PvE. This way, even PvP would have some rewards to it and it might motivate those people who I've mentioned above to actually give it a go.
I'll copy what a friend of mine wrote on EU's forums long time ago:
- balance out matching system, newbies would play with newbies, and pros would play with pros, which means that everyone would be able to win from time to time, opposite to how it is right now, where people are forced to join a person which holds the spot in Arena (other words person who wins the most)
- it would remove a possibility of rejoining to someone, because your opponent would be chosen by the ranking system instead of yourself, people wouldn't be able rejoin (trade), which would remove the possibility to abuse this system for rewards
- added rewards in form of 'seasons' (like in League of Legends for example or BnS) would be given to TOP players, other words people would have to actually play, and play well to receive them - meaning that leeching would not be possible if someone would try to achieve any sort of profit, and thanks to the way that Vindictus combat system works, believe me that there would be no way to create bots that win for this sort of thing (because Vindictus PvP combat actually requires brain and predicting human behaviors, intuition, something that a software can't do... unless you'd have some advanced AI system)
I find it kinda stupid that items obtained from PvP are affecting PvE and visa-versa (that's why I complained about equipment depending previously). That way people who find no interest in PvP wouldn't need to bother with it in the first place, but keep those fashon rewards in PvP so it'd have at least some value to it for those who are only playing for items. I'd only understand keeping the in PvP shop if they were ONLY a PvP luxury.
After all of these things are done, the devs could proceed to balance out the classes and certain mechanics, even though this is the smallest problem out of all. Keep in mind that even if they do all these things, the game could never reach perfect balance and it doesn't have to. Some things will always be more OP than the other things. I'm aware that these things are probably too much for the developers and are most unlikely to happen, but on EU at least, we've had a somewhat big community of PvP players. However, due to Dev's forsakening it most of them left game.
In the end.... Will people still complain? Of course they will. It's usually the same story over and over again. They can't win by spamming attacks they end up complaining how it's "unbalanced". God forbid them accepting that they suck and having to rely on their own skills instead of their stats. I've seen countless examples like these and it's truly sad how delusional and bias a person can be.
Pvp is fun, even as a Hurk i've had my butt handed to me by other classes. I like it, and endorse it. I'm in agreeance with those saying they should equalize gear and stats. Some of the people i lost too were just too OP for me to even hurt, but when your evenly matched its a very fun experience.
But let me rephrase their argument. The reason why they don't like PvP is not only "balancing" but because they can't win. In PvP, as you already know, mechanics work differently than in PvE. Also, because PvE in Vindictus is so easy (Learn pre-animations + adjusting the timing = PvE) they are used on being OP. When they're put in arena PvP they will always find something to complain. Sure, it's not balanced nor fair sometimes but you can in theory beat anyone if you play with perfect deduction. There is not a single move in PvP which you just "CAN NOT AVOID/DODGE".
Stop putting words in my mouth. I win at PvP plenty of times in different types of games - hack and slash, fighting, FPS, and even skill spam. It's just not fun because everything becomes meta. In games where mob AIs are terrible, which are the majority of games, PvP is more "fun" because it literally has the only amount of tactical combat in the game; but in pre-Rise Vindi, while there ARE mob patterns that can be memorized, mob AIs still randomize the order in which they use those patterns and bosses even have a complex aggro-switching system, to the point that meta PvP requires less intelligence than PvE does.
The mechanics in PvP also aren't any different. Because metas exist, players tend to spam their own patterns that work best for their class, using the same impact of attacks, dodges, and disabling moves as mobs. The difference is that PvP always ends up a zergfest since Vindi PvP is not designed around the use of the environment like PvE is.
I'm not sure with what logic did you use compare one to another even at end-game PvE. PvP you're using deduction to try and figure out what your opponent will do, you can't rely on pre-animations as they don't exist in PvP(in 95% of the attacks) and EVERY attack in PvE has pre-animations on which you can rely. That's why I don't see the connection between these two but with the rest I agree. MMO's tend to focus more on PvE since it'll have a larger audience than PvP, most of the time at least.
You also have to do that with PvE. In fact, late-game bosses tend to have high enough attack speed to barely have any animations and many of their skills are unblockables, which force some strategy for the party. I personally would love it if mobs had skill cancel capabilities, but i don't see that happening post-Rise.
As for getting used to mob patterns, you can get just as used to player patterns as - once again - the meta creates uniformity. Just as a player will master a boss after facing them enough, so will players master PvP if they face all of the classes enough.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I win at PvP plenty of times in different types of games - hack and slash, fighting, FPS, and even skill spam. It's just not fun because everything becomes meta. In games where mob AIs are terrible, which are the majority of games, PvP is more "fun" because it literally has the only amount of tactical combat in the game; but in pre-Rise Vindi, while there ARE mob patterns that can be memorized, mob AIs still randomize the order in which they use those patterns and bosses even have a complex aggro-switching system, to the point that meta PvP requires less intelligence than PvE does.
You misunderstood me, I am talking about specifically ONLY about Vindictus PvP, not any other game in that paragraph. Now let's move to the next part... I'm not sure if you're in complete denial or something but ALL attacks in Vindictus PvE can be predicted just by learning pre-animations. There is no point in denying that it is a literal fact. Just the fact that the patterns randomize doesn't prove a single thing. There is not a single attack on bosses that is executed instantly. Also I was saying that Vindictus PvP is based on predicting moves of your opponent and you've compared it to PvE? With what logic? In PvP you can bait your opponent into doing something, you can compare it to chess if you want. That's how most of the end-game PvP players play. In PvE on the other hand, the most you can do for baiting a boss to do a certain move is to make distance from it and wait for it to use it's "long-range" attack that's all. In PvP you have a counter for everything. Dodge, Invulnerability buff, smash attacks. Can the bosses in PvE dodge attacks? Can they stop you from dodging? Do they try to take as least damage as possible and win the exchange? They don't have counter for your actions, just huge amounts of HP. So again, using a boss as a punching bag that fights back and literally alerts you of it's attacks takes more intelligence than fighting an actual human? I'm not sure, answer that yourself. I'll repeat it once again PvE is 100% predictable.
As for getting used to mob patterns, you can get just as used to player patterns as - once again - the meta creates uniformity. Just as a player will master a boss after facing them enough, so will players master PvP if they face all of the classes enough.
You couldn't be more wrong with this statement. This rule would only apply if you had a pattern in PvP which would guarantee you a win, but there is none. You can get used to the attacks of a certain class but not the way that the PLAYER is executing them. Sure, one step into learning how to PvP in Vindictus would be to learn ALL the attacks of all classes so you know what you can expect. But you can't how they'll position themselves, how will they approach you, if they'll try to counter you or not. Here ALL of your moves matter and the different stamina scaling in PvP is what makes it interesting. I'm now returning to the point which I've made earlier: If you see a boss attack you will dodge his combo and then follow up with an attack and he will have to make some break before doing the next attack right? Now let's look at this scenario in PvP.... Let's say that you're playing a Lann and I'm playing a Vella, we're relatively on close range. Now let's look at all the possibilities that can occur....
Scenario one: I start building a combo attack (let's say I was aiming for LMB + LMB + RMB), as a Lann you can dodge and lift me from there and do a lift combo. In this scenario I've lost the exchange. Scenario two: I start building a combo attack just like previously stated by I predict that you'd dash to me and try to lift me. Then I grab you on your dodge and win the exchange cause of that (Keep in mind that in PvP smash attacks are counters to Grab so if I was to fail my grab you'd lift me and I'd lose the exchange) Scenario three: Same as before, I start building a combo attack while assuming that I've successfully baited you to use dodge which you do use but not towards me but towards the side and use a 2nd dash on Lann's dodge and lift me because you predicted that I'll use grab for your dodge. Scenario four: I can approach with dodge and go with my RMB and you counter that with your dodge and predict that I'll follow up with another dodge + RMB and you just grab my dodge and win the exchange.
I can go on and list more scenarios what could happen but I think this was enough to prove my point. While in PvE you only have 2 scenarios (You will see the combo that the boss is doing which you've already witnessed countless times, counter the combo, with dodge or your block skill, after the combo finishes you'll move in to attack up until the boss starts another combo. Second case scenario you'll fail here somewhere along the way and get hit) in PvP, as you can see, there are way more possibilities than that.
PS: I feel like I need to add this, not in any way am I trash talking nor shaming PvE in Vindictus. Hell, it's pretty **** fun sometimes but it can grow to be repetitive over the time and that's fine. This game, by far has the best PvE combat system I've ever seen.
In PvP you can bait your opponent into doing something, you can compare it to chess if you want. Can the bosses in PvE dodge attacks? Can they stop you from dodging? Do they try to take as least damage as possible and win the exchange? They don't have counter for your actions, just huge amounts of HP. So again, using a boss as a punching bag that fights back and literally alerts you of it's attacks takes more intelligence than fighting an actual human? I'm not sure, answer that yourself. I'll repeat it once again PvE is 100% predictable.
I don't know when you started playing this game, but back at launch the mobs did all of that - they'd get close to you, start a menacing movement, and pull away to trick you; they'd dodge your attacks; bosses would execute some moves automatically (like the gnoll chieftain doing his spin out of nowhere) and also dodged; they knew how to counter attacks and their AI did aggro players that tried to get away (now that feature would be useless because there's no dodge stam limit). PvE didn't used to be predictable, and that added to the game's difficulty.
This rule would only apply if you had a pattern in PvP which would guarantee you a win, but there is none. You can get used to the attacks of a certain class but not the way that the PLAYER is executing them. Sure, one step into learning how to PvP in Vindictus would be to learn ALL the attacks of all classes so you know what you can expect. But you can't how they'll position themselves, how will they approach you, if they'll try to counter you or not.
Wrong. Anyone with half a brain can learn how to deal with multiple uses of the same tired skills. A good number of players in this game don't even skill cancel, yet you act as if they don't have animations that can be predicted? What about combos - you know, those attacks that lead into one another? The only characters that are immune to this are full-ranged characters, but that's one reason PvP is broken.
Additionally, your examples are all about pro PvPers. Again, most players don't even skill cancel, or rely on their stats too much. But the thing is that Vindictus is designed where enemy AIs can do all of those things, but the developers have chosen to nerf PvE every chance they get; it didn't used to be this way, as PvE used to require actual thought.
In PvP you can bait your opponent into doing something, you can compare it to chess if you want. Can the bosses in PvE dodge attacks? Can they stop you from dodging? Do they try to take as least damage as possible and win the exchange? They don't have counter for your actions, just huge amounts of HP. So again, using a boss as a punching bag that fights back and literally alerts you of it's attacks takes more intelligence than fighting an actual human? I'm not sure, answer that yourself. I'll repeat it once again PvE is 100% predictable.
I don't know when you started playing this game, but back at launch the mobs did all of that - they'd get close to you, start a menacing movement, and pull away to trick you; they'd dodge your attacks; bosses would execute some moves automatically (like the gnoll chieftain doing his spin out of nowhere) and also dodged; they knew how to counter attacks and their AI did aggro players that tried to get away (now that feature would be useless because there's no dodge stam limit). PvE didn't used to be predictable, and that added to the game's difficulty.
This rule would only apply if you had a pattern in PvP which would guarantee you a win, but there is none. You can get used to the attacks of a certain class but not the way that the PLAYER is executing them. Sure, one step into learning how to PvP in Vindictus would be to learn ALL the attacks of all classes so you know what you can expect. But you can't how they'll position themselves, how will they approach you, if they'll try to counter you or not.
Wrong. Anyone with half a brain can learn how to deal with multiple uses of the same tired skills. A good number of players in this game don't even skill cancel, yet you act as if they don't have animations that can be predicted? What about combos - you know, those attacks that lead into one another? The only characters that are immune to this are full-ranged characters, but that's one reason PvP is broken.
Additionally, your examples are all about pro PvPers. Again, most players don't even skill cancel, or rely on their stats too much. But the thing is that Vindictus is designed where enemy AIs can do all of those things, but the developers have chosen to nerf PvE every chance they get; it didn't used to be this way, as PvE used to require actual thought.
It's funny on how you use mobs as an example. Didn't know you took 30seconds to kill one mob, I thought it was more like 0.1sec to clear the mobs.
Now if you were refering to bosses. Let's take Havan as an example. He starts his pillar attack combo, if you dodge it before he barely started and you're suddenly on the otherside of the map, Havan won't simply cancel his combo half way through, you'll see him continuing the full combo on nothing facing you. Because that's how the AI is coded.
Now if you imagine Havan played by a player, he would stop his combo right as you get away from him, and instead walk towards you and start a new combo or an attack. That's what PvP is, the enemy is conscious and will react to your moves. Not simply continue a full combo on nothing. "Hence the dodge key" that allows you to interrupt yourself to start anew. Bosses don't have conscience and they can't decide when to dodge, it's RNG as the move "dodge, teleport" is on their list of current moves that they can do, which usually have a few restrictions: like, Move: A,B,C are unable to do if target is not near, therefore D,E,F is unlocked for range combat."
AI is predictable. They're coded to do lets say 5 different motions, you don't see them canceling one of their combo moves half way through it to catch you of guard with another set of combos or an attack. Once the RNG decided to do one motion or combo it does it 100%. Summary: it doesn't cancel it's combo to start another right away to catch you of guard. There is always a start point and an end point.
If you believe for example the boss in naughty chamber is conscious because she can fake you with the 3 teleport fake attacks, it's not. It's just another combo move she got.
It's funny on how you use mobs as an example. Didn't know you took 30seconds to kill one mob, I thought it was more like 0.1sec to clear the mobs.
At game launch it took atleast 30 seconds to clear one group of mobs at equal level. Now it takes 0.1 seconds because of tons of nerfs and finally Rise.
Now if you were refering to bosses. Let's take Havan as an example. He starts his pillar attack combo, if you dodge it before he barely started and you're suddenly on the otherside of the map, Havan won't simply cancel his combo half way through, you'll see him continuing the full combo on nothing facing you. Because that's how the AI is coded.
Now if you imagine Havan played by a player, he would stop his combo right as you get away from him, and instead walk towards you and start a new combo or an attack. That's what PvP is, the enemy is conscious and will react to your moves. Not simply continue a full combo on nothing. "Hence the dodge key" that allows you to interrupt yourself to start anew. Bosses don't have conscience and they can't decide when to dodge, it's RNG as the move "dodge, teleport" is on their list of current moves that they can do, which usually have a few restrictions: like, Move: A,B,C are unable to do if target is not near, therefore D,E,F is unlocked for range combat."
You're using a Season 2 example. I claimed that bosses had difficult AIs when the game first launched. I don't even think Season 1 was complete at launch. Season 2 was a significant nerf with the only challenge being the massive difficulty gap between modes since mob difficulty was based on a mode's max level, not its min level.
AI is predictable. They're coded to do lets say 5 different motions, you don't see them canceling one of their combo moves half way through it to catch you of guard with another set of combos or an attack. Once the RNG decided to do one motion or combo it does it 100%. Summary: it doesn't cancel it's combo to start another right away to catch you of guard. There is always a start point and an end point.
Again, it's like that now. It wasn't like that at launch. The game got easier and easier over the years, just like how Mabinogi got simpler and simpler (look up the Snowman Puzzle and you'll know what I mean). Bosses used to shorten their attacks to go into others if need be, and any interrupts reset them. Heck, Vindi took that from Mabi since Mabi mobs did the same exact thing - they could begin casting a skill and cancel it for any reason, allowing them to go right into another.
It's funny on how you use mobs as an example. Didn't know you took 30seconds to kill one mob, I thought it was more like 0.1sec to clear the mobs.
At game launch it took atleast 30 seconds to clear one group of mobs at equal level. Now it takes 0.1 seconds because of tons of nerfs and finally Rise.
Now if you were refering to bosses. Let's take Havan as an example. He starts his pillar attack combo, if you dodge it before he barely started and you're suddenly on the otherside of the map, Havan won't simply cancel his combo half way through, you'll see him continuing the full combo on nothing facing you. Because that's how the AI is coded.
Now if you imagine Havan played by a player, he would stop his combo right as you get away from him, and instead walk towards you and start a new combo or an attack. That's what PvP is, the enemy is conscious and will react to your moves. Not simply continue a full combo on nothing. "Hence the dodge key" that allows you to interrupt yourself to start anew. Bosses don't have conscience and they can't decide when to dodge, it's RNG as the move "dodge, teleport" is on their list of current moves that they can do, which usually have a few restrictions: like, Move: A,B,C are unable to do if target is not near, therefore D,E,F is unlocked for range combat."
You're using a Season 2 example. I claimed that bosses had difficult AIs when the game first launched. I don't even think Season 1 was complete at launch. Season 2 was a significant nerf with the only challenge being the massive difficulty gap between modes since mob difficulty was based on a mode's max level, not its min level.
AI is predictable. They're coded to do lets say 5 different motions, you don't see them canceling one of their combo moves half way through it to catch you of guard with another set of combos or an attack. Once the RNG decided to do one motion or combo it does it 100%. Summary: it doesn't cancel it's combo to start another right away to catch you of guard. There is always a start point and an end point.
Again, it's like that now. It wasn't like that at launch. The game got easier and easier over the years, just like how Mabinogi got simpler and simpler (look up the Snowman Puzzle and you'll know what I mean). Bosses used to shorten their attacks to go into others if need be, and any interrupts reset them. Heck, Vindi took that from Mabi since Mabi mobs did the same exact thing - they could begin casting a skill and cancel it for any reason, allowing them to go right into another.
you keep saying at launch, at launch, at launch. Anyone with a decent brain knows that of course when you are new to a game and its bosses, it's definitely hard. Lets take laghodessa for example, back in the days it was the hardest boss, it took 8 people and teamwork to beat it. Now go back with no gear and a wooden weapon and beat it without getting hit no problem. It's all about experience. Everything is harder in the beggining.
Kommentare
After all I've read, I've come to the conclusion, Git Gud.
Yes not every class is 100% balanced/fair, but everyclass as there weakness's, you need to learn the class your fighting/learn the timing of there dodge and your attacks.
Basically there are some rules applied in PvP which you need to discover on your own. In this case, cross-cut in PvP only works if you do a smash before going to cross-stance, otherwise it'll fail. If you don't do a smash attack before going to xstance you'll get knocked back, so with that logic the only attacks you'll be able to counter are normal attacks. The bad thing about xcuts in PvP is that they give invulnerability only on the second half of it's animation, meaning that you'll take damage upon impact. Also it's good to use Wind Rider to transform your blade heart into SP which would later allow you to use Sword's will. In this video I had no need to spam Wind Rider because this was an event artifact that gave 2 bars of SP. Swords will will enhance your xcuts a lot and you'll deal quite a lot of damage as you could've seen in the vid.
I play pvp on my lynn and delia. I think I do pretty well in pvp using them. As a delia user I think pvp mode is great but not perfect. I've also used vella to pvp she's really fun to use when you build up your sp by cancelling blade heart stacks then activate slashing high. You become almost invulnerable by spamming your dodge and smashes with slashing high activated. Also crosscut only works when the person uses normal attacks so you need to be smart about it on when to use it and not just pray that it works. However I do think hurks and kai requires less learning cause their mechanics seems pretty easy to use compared to other classes.
Every MMO out there with a viable PvP system uses queues so you can't trade your seals/points so easily.
People should stop doing PvE cause that is unbalanced too. You're not going to be able to out damage a +15 lvl 90 whale in Neam especially after the Rise patch where the additional dmg gave those whales even more of an advantage. At least in PvP I have higher chance of beating a whale hurk than in PvE and I've done this using a Lynn. Besides what is so fun of just doing PvE all day its so easy to memorize the boss's attack pattern its not even a challenge. At least in PvP the patterns changes depending on the player.
Of which there are only a few, and even with queues players still trade kills because the entire community knows to do so. The only game I haven't seen this in is S4 League and that's because there's no real benefit to raising rank in that game.
Not when it comes to PvM. If anything, PvE at endgame is just PvP using mobs as scoreboards, and to that extent it is unbalanced - but you can't tell me that guilds don't work together to rig the mechanics in their favor. But true PvM - a battle of skill and wits against monster AIs - tends to be far more balanced in MMOs than PvP, as PvM is what most MMO developers focus on. While P2W does get in the way of that, PvM still remains more balanced compared to PvP because developers just don't care about fixing PvP; even games like ArcheAge, which claim to be designed for PvP, suffer from developer apathy for PvP balance.
Yeah, i wasn't so accurate. In a free-for-all deathmatch you can trade kills (although it's still not so easy), but not if you are put into a random team and if the pvp points/seals aren't distributed based on kills. Maybe if you manage to sabotage your team somehow. This is how it used to work in Tera for example, and even if you queued up with a premade for the 3v3 arena the enemy team was the next one in the queue with an average item level similar to your team's, but you could only guess who they will be.
A similar thing in Vindi is the Royal Army raids.
T H A N K Y O U. But let me rephrase their argument. The reason why they don't like PvP is not only "balancing" but because they can't win. In PvP, as you already know, mechanics work differently than in PvE. Also, because PvE in Vindictus is so easy (Learn pre-animations + adjusting the timing = PvE) they are used on being OP. When they're put in arena PvP they will always find something to complain. Sure, it's not balanced nor fair sometimes but you can in theory beat anyone if you play with perfect deduction. There is not a single move in PvP which you just "CAN NOT AVOID/DODGE".
I can agree with most of what you've said, but this is a pretty stupid argument to make "Not when it comes to PvM. If anything, PvE at endgame is just PvP using mobs as scoreboards, and to that extent it is unbalanced ". I'm not sure with what logic did you use compare one to another even at end-game PvE. PvP you're using deduction to try and figure out what your opponent will do, you can't rely on pre-animations as they don't exist in PvP(in 95% of the attacks) and EVERY attack in PvE has pre-animations on which you can rely. That's why I don't see the connection between these two but with the rest I agree. MMO's tend to focus more on PvE since it'll have a larger audience than PvP, most of the time at least.
In any case... The thing is how people view games and what their goal is. For example, for me I couldn't care less about max stats as they only change my numbers in damage. I can get 0 personal development from having higher stats. However, people on the other hand like to do the opposite. Play for stats and they like to be rewarded in items and that's completely fine. One of people's arguments against PvP is that it's not "rewarding" content as they easily get their artifacts by trading. It was suggested in the old forum EU, how to make PvP more enjoyable for everyone.
Hard method (Unlikely to happen): Also keep in mind that I don't mean ALL characters to have the same stats. Every class in Vindictus is affected by stats differently so this is what Nexon could do... Gather players who are experienced in PvP and who know how it works to help them out test things and find the best stats for each class. Of course it'd take a while but this is the most efficient way of doing it, in my opinion at least.
I'll copy what a friend of mine wrote on EU's forums long time ago:
After all of these things are done, the devs could proceed to balance out the classes and certain mechanics, even though this is the smallest problem out of all. Keep in mind that even if they do all these things, the game could never reach perfect balance and it doesn't have to. Some things will always be more OP than the other things. I'm aware that these things are probably too much for the developers and are most unlikely to happen, but on EU at least, we've had a somewhat big community of PvP players. However, due to Dev's forsakening it most of them left game.
In the end.... Will people still complain? Of course they will. It's usually the same story over and over again. They can't win by spamming attacks they end up complaining how it's "unbalanced". God forbid them accepting that they suck and having to rely on their own skills instead of their stats. I've seen countless examples like these and it's truly sad how delusional and bias a person can be.
Stop putting words in my mouth. I win at PvP plenty of times in different types of games - hack and slash, fighting, FPS, and even skill spam. It's just not fun because everything becomes meta. In games where mob AIs are terrible, which are the majority of games, PvP is more "fun" because it literally has the only amount of tactical combat in the game; but in pre-Rise Vindi, while there ARE mob patterns that can be memorized, mob AIs still randomize the order in which they use those patterns and bosses even have a complex aggro-switching system, to the point that meta PvP requires less intelligence than PvE does.
The mechanics in PvP also aren't any different. Because metas exist, players tend to spam their own patterns that work best for their class, using the same impact of attacks, dodges, and disabling moves as mobs. The difference is that PvP always ends up a zergfest since Vindi PvP is not designed around the use of the environment like PvE is.
You also have to do that with PvE. In fact, late-game bosses tend to have high enough attack speed to barely have any animations and many of their skills are unblockables, which force some strategy for the party. I personally would love it if mobs had skill cancel capabilities, but i don't see that happening post-Rise.
As for getting used to mob patterns, you can get just as used to player patterns as - once again - the meta creates uniformity. Just as a player will master a boss after facing them enough, so will players master PvP if they face all of the classes enough.
You misunderstood me, I am talking about specifically ONLY about Vindictus PvP, not any other game in that paragraph. Now let's move to the next part... I'm not sure if you're in complete denial or something but ALL attacks in Vindictus PvE can be predicted just by learning pre-animations. There is no point in denying that it is a literal fact. Just the fact that the patterns randomize doesn't prove a single thing. There is not a single attack on bosses that is executed instantly. Also I was saying that Vindictus PvP is based on predicting moves of your opponent and you've compared it to PvE? With what logic? In PvP you can bait your opponent into doing something, you can compare it to chess if you want. That's how most of the end-game PvP players play. In PvE on the other hand, the most you can do for baiting a boss to do a certain move is to make distance from it and wait for it to use it's "long-range" attack that's all. In PvP you have a counter for everything. Dodge, Invulnerability buff, smash attacks. Can the bosses in PvE dodge attacks? Can they stop you from dodging? Do they try to take as least damage as possible and win the exchange? They don't have counter for your actions, just huge amounts of HP. So again, using a boss as a punching bag that fights back and literally alerts you of it's attacks takes more intelligence than fighting an actual human? I'm not sure, answer that yourself. I'll repeat it once again PvE is 100% predictable.
You couldn't be more wrong with this statement. This rule would only apply if you had a pattern in PvP which would guarantee you a win, but there is none. You can get used to the attacks of a certain class but not the way that the PLAYER is executing them. Sure, one step into learning how to PvP in Vindictus would be to learn ALL the attacks of all classes so you know what you can expect. But you can't how they'll position themselves, how will they approach you, if they'll try to counter you or not. Here ALL of your moves matter and the different stamina scaling in PvP is what makes it interesting. I'm now returning to the point which I've made earlier: If you see a boss attack you will dodge his combo and then follow up with an attack and he will have to make some break before doing the next attack right? Now let's look at this scenario in PvP.... Let's say that you're playing a Lann and I'm playing a Vella, we're relatively on close range. Now let's look at all the possibilities that can occur....
Scenario one: I start building a combo attack (let's say I was aiming for LMB + LMB + RMB), as a Lann you can dodge and lift me from there and do a lift combo. In this scenario I've lost the exchange.
Scenario two: I start building a combo attack just like previously stated by I predict that you'd dash to me and try to lift me. Then I grab you on your dodge and win the exchange cause of that (Keep in mind that in PvP smash attacks are counters to Grab so if I was to fail my grab you'd lift me and I'd lose the exchange)
Scenario three: Same as before, I start building a combo attack while assuming that I've successfully baited you to use dodge which you do use but not towards me but towards the side and use a 2nd dash on Lann's dodge and lift me because you predicted that I'll use grab for your dodge.
Scenario four: I can approach with dodge and go with my RMB and you counter that with your dodge and predict that I'll follow up with another dodge + RMB and you just grab my dodge and win the exchange.
I can go on and list more scenarios what could happen but I think this was enough to prove my point. While in PvE you only have 2 scenarios (You will see the combo that the boss is doing which you've already witnessed countless times, counter the combo, with dodge or your block skill, after the combo finishes you'll move in to attack up until the boss starts another combo. Second case scenario you'll fail here somewhere along the way and get hit) in PvP, as you can see, there are way more possibilities than that.
PS: I feel like I need to add this, not in any way am I trash talking nor shaming PvE in Vindictus. Hell, it's pretty **** fun sometimes but it can grow to be repetitive over the time and that's fine. This game, by far has the best PvE combat system I've ever seen.
I don't know when you started playing this game, but back at launch the mobs did all of that - they'd get close to you, start a menacing movement, and pull away to trick you; they'd dodge your attacks; bosses would execute some moves automatically (like the gnoll chieftain doing his spin out of nowhere) and also dodged; they knew how to counter attacks and their AI did aggro players that tried to get away (now that feature would be useless because there's no dodge stam limit). PvE didn't used to be predictable, and that added to the game's difficulty.
Wrong. Anyone with half a brain can learn how to deal with multiple uses of the same tired skills. A good number of players in this game don't even skill cancel, yet you act as if they don't have animations that can be predicted? What about combos - you know, those attacks that lead into one another? The only characters that are immune to this are full-ranged characters, but that's one reason PvP is broken.
Additionally, your examples are all about pro PvPers. Again, most players don't even skill cancel, or rely on their stats too much. But the thing is that Vindictus is designed where enemy AIs can do all of those things, but the developers have chosen to nerf PvE every chance they get; it didn't used to be this way, as PvE used to require actual thought.
It's funny on how you use mobs as an example. Didn't know you took 30seconds to kill one mob, I thought it was more like 0.1sec to clear the mobs.
Now if you were refering to bosses. Let's take Havan as an example. He starts his pillar attack combo, if you dodge it before he barely started and you're suddenly on the otherside of the map, Havan won't simply cancel his combo half way through, you'll see him continuing the full combo on nothing facing you. Because that's how the AI is coded.
Now if you imagine Havan played by a player, he would stop his combo right as you get away from him, and instead walk towards you and start a new combo or an attack. That's what PvP is, the enemy is conscious and will react to your moves. Not simply continue a full combo on nothing. "Hence the dodge key" that allows you to interrupt yourself to start anew. Bosses don't have conscience and they can't decide when to dodge, it's RNG as the move "dodge, teleport" is on their list of current moves that they can do, which usually have a few restrictions: like, Move: A,B,C are unable to do if target is not near, therefore D,E,F is unlocked for range combat."
AI is predictable. They're coded to do lets say 5 different motions, you don't see them canceling one of their combo moves half way through it to catch you of guard with another set of combos or an attack. Once the RNG decided to do one motion or combo it does it 100%. Summary: it doesn't cancel it's combo to start another right away to catch you of guard. There is always a start point and an end point.
If you believe for example the boss in naughty chamber is conscious because she can fake you with the 3 teleport fake attacks, it's not. It's just another combo move she got.
At game launch it took atleast 30 seconds to clear one group of mobs at equal level. Now it takes 0.1 seconds because of tons of nerfs and finally Rise.
You're using a Season 2 example. I claimed that bosses had difficult AIs when the game first launched. I don't even think Season 1 was complete at launch. Season 2 was a significant nerf with the only challenge being the massive difficulty gap between modes since mob difficulty was based on a mode's max level, not its min level.
Again, it's like that now. It wasn't like that at launch. The game got easier and easier over the years, just like how Mabinogi got simpler and simpler (look up the Snowman Puzzle and you'll know what I mean). Bosses used to shorten their attacks to go into others if need be, and any interrupts reset them. Heck, Vindi took that from Mabi since Mabi mobs did the same exact thing - they could begin casting a skill and cancel it for any reason, allowing them to go right into another.
you keep saying at launch, at launch, at launch. Anyone with a decent brain knows that of course when you are new to a game and its bosses, it's definitely hard. Lets take laghodessa for example, back in the days it was the hardest boss, it took 8 people and teamwork to beat it. Now go back with no gear and a wooden weapon and beat it without getting hit no problem. It's all about experience. Everything is harder in the beggining.