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New player go for +15 dullahan or Astera

UkamUkam
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in General Discussion
Pretty much as the title says. Is a full +15 dullahan weapon really that much weaker vs an Astera? I'm a new player so I don't have much money and it's insanely cheaper to reforge the dullahan weapon. Would I be better off going dullahan so I can get some good speed dps going?
JessGame

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  • CloakshireCloakshire
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    edited September 14, 2019
    To quote myself from another thread.

    Cloakshire wrote: »
    For now, let's look at just the weapons. Enhancing an Astera Weapon vs a Dulla Weapon in terms of cost. Let's also assume that you will succeed after reforging half the required amount of times to reach the 100% success rate. (EX: +14->15 takes 12 fails to reach 100%, therefore we will assume 6 attempts were made before succeeding).

    Dullahan Weapon (Material Cost: 16mil (6mil essence / ~2.5mil per chunks))
    • +0 to +11 in a single jump thanks to the +11 Jumping stone from Unified Front quest.
    • +12 with the +12 Restorative Rune from the Unified Front Quest. (Must reforge once afterwards: +47mil)
    • +13 is guaranteed with Seal Shop rune. (Must reforge once afterwards: +80mil)
    • +14 assuming 5 reforges: 335mil ((4m per steel x 14 steel + 6m essence + ~5m for two chunks) * 5)
    • +15 assuming 6 reforges: 450mil ((4m per steel x 16 steel + 6m essence + ~5m for two chunks) * 6)
    • Total Cost: 928,000,000

    Astera Weapon (Material Cost: 50.2mil (35mil essence / ~3.8m per ore))
    • +0 to +10 normally with enhancement runes needed for +9, and +10.
    • +11 assuming 2 fails with Prem Rune: 14.2mil (Currently 7.1m per in market).
    • +12 assuming 3 reforges: 390.6mil ((4m per steel x 22 steel + 35m essence + ~7.2m for two ores) * 3)
    • +13 assuming 4 reforges: 712.8mil ((4m per steel x 34 steel + 35m essence + ~7.2m for two ores) * 4)
    • +14 assuming 5 reforges: 931mil ((4m per steel x 36 steel + 35m essence + ~7.2m for two ores) * 5)
    • +15 assuming 6 reforges: 1.69bil ((4m per steel x 60 steel + 35m essence + ~7.2m for two ores) * 6)
    • Total Cost: 3,792,000,000

    Assuming I didn't make any mistakes in my math, we can conclude that:
    • Making a +13 Dulla Weapon is 13mil more than a base +0 Astera Weapon.
    • Making a +14 Dulla Weapon is 24mil more than a +12 Astera.
    • Making a +15 Dulla Weapon is 239.8mil less than a +13 Astera.
    • Making a +15 Dulla Weapon is 1.17bil less than a +14 Astera
    • Making a +15 Dulla Weapon is 2.86bill less than a +15 Astera.
    • A +15 Dulla is superior to a +14 Astera b/c both weapons can cap all current content but the Dulla offers more ADD.
    • Considering current content as well as future content Selren and Maject, Dulla is the best and most economic choice unless you need the extra crit offered by Astera and/or just want to have the best of the best.
    UkamJessGame2edgy4u
  • UkamUkam
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    Nice post thanks for that. It's weird that a bunch of gearing guides all suggest Astera but when you've got the math laid out like that it looks pretty obvious.
  • AslaiAslai
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    Astera is often recommended because it can get you above many minimum requirements more easily than Dulla can, however from the perspective of getting as much DPS as soon as possible, Dullahan is a clear winner.

    The first boss that will be released where Dulla will really fall short on is Brigit, which we should be getting in 5 months or so. Until then, the main benefits of Astera are for hell mode, rank points, and a significantly easier time hitting attack / tech minimums.
    Daimus
  • CloakshireCloakshire
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    edited September 13, 2019
    Aslai wrote: »
    Astera is often recommended because it can get you above many minimum requirements more easily than Dulla can, however from the perspective of getting as much DPS as soon as possible, Dullahan is a clear winner.

    The first boss that will be released where Dulla will really fall short on is Brigit, which we should be getting in 5 months or so. Until then, the main benefits of Astera are for hell mode, rank points, and a significantly easier time hitting attack / tech minimums.

    ^ What he said. Altho I think it was calculated that Dulla can come very close to capping Brigit if everything is maxed. I could be wrong on this though. However, being only a couple hundred attack shy of cap and maybe a few critical points below cap isn't all that bad considering the gold savings. Especially in redeemers where the main aspect is survival. I'd guess that Astera will be the best choice once Season 4 comes out and they reduce the steel costs to match today's dulla costs.
  • NokaubureNokaubure
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    edited September 13, 2019
    Its best to go for dullahan because you get to cap ALR quickly, which gives around 30% dps boost in total. As people already said it caps everywhere except hell mode and bridgit. Hell mode is trash reward wise, and Bridgit is good but she's still around half a year away from us, you should always focus on present not future, plus full dullahan +15 in there is no joke, its dps will be slightly more than +14 astera in Bridgit without reaching crit cap.
  • AtherionAtherion
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    A +15 Dulla can break 40k with the new redeemer stats and some ap epaulets although hitting the 200 crit cap is still rather difficult.

    With that said, a +15 Astera on average will set you back enough gold to fully max out attack limit on a Dulla set and +15 a Dulla weapon. So the Astera will be slightly better in Brigit and Hell mode (assuming you invested the time to build up your character) while the Dulla will significantly out perform the Astera everywhere else.



  • UkamUkam
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    A lot of different opinions but good stuff. Would it just be easier to go with +11 Astera which I have already. Side line it for a moment and go for +15 dullahan so I can farm better and then use that to advance the Astera? I've already got +15 frozen rings, +15 sealed belt, and +15 devil earrings.
  • AtherionAtherion
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    You can make a +13 Dulla without too much hassle and it should be a pretty big boost over the +11 Astera in raids. The only issue you may run into is lacking the power to clear the lvl 100 raid reqs if the rest of your setup is lacking.




  • CloakshireCloakshire
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    EDIT: I found a mistake in my math from earlier and found that I made a miscalculation on the value of +14 Astera. I accidentally overestimated its cost by 188m. I corrected the value of +14, the total Astera cost, and the +15 dulla vs +14/+15 Astera costs.

    Everything should be correct now. If there's anything I missed, please point it out and I'll amend the values.
  • ikeviikevi
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    edited September 14, 2019
    Ukam wrote: »
    A lot of different opinions but good stuff. Would it just be easier to go with +11 Astera which I have already. Side line it for a moment and go for +15 dullahan so I can farm better and then use that to advance the Astera? I've already got +15 frozen rings, +15 sealed belt, and +15 devil earrings.

    Cost wise I would side line the Astera and focus on the dul. It just costs too much steel to go with Astera, unless you are sitting around with 3B gold or more. (And my assumption is that in a few months we will see lv 105 weapon in korea -> in ~8-9 months we likely will have them here. With that they will likely lower the steel cost for lv 100 items and make the lv 105 cost the same as lv 100 does now.)

    *Note lv 105 likely will have a crazy jump in att... if things to the way they have then lvl 105 weapons will have more att than +15 lv 100s...*
    Daimus
  • RakushuRakushu
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    I transitioned from a +15 dullah to +16 astera...
    I lost overall dps due to lack of ALR, until I have a way to restore the 2k ALR Limit, so you don't really need an astera weapon atm
  • NokaubureNokaubure
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    edited September 21, 2019
    Rakushu wrote: »
    I transitioned from a +15 dullah to +16 astera...
    I lost overall dps due to lack of ALR, until I have a way to restore the 2k ALR Limit, so you don't really need an astera weapon atm

    Useful info, always though that +16 gives +30% dps bost while 2k alr gives +20%, but you say here that 2k alr makes more impact, I'm gonna trust you since I have no way to test it.
    But yeah cheap alr is what makes choosing dulla more favorable, most people underestimate that stat.
  • AeledingAeleding
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    edited September 22, 2019
    This is just simple math, if you have just a +15 weapon and +0 armor (3k add) with no alr then switching to a +16 with no alr is 25% boost, if you have 6k add then having 6750 (+16) will be 12,5% boost.
    For alr, since you are capped at 10k ATT, if you get 2k ALR then yes it will be 20% dmg boost (assuming you can make use of it)

    The tricky part comes from the fact that at 0 ALR, ADD dmg gets multiplied by 6.25 for the damage calculation, but the more ALR you get the more that multiplier is increased.

    So, going from 6k add with 2k alr to 6750 add with 0 alr is effectively (+12,5 - 20 - whatever that multiplier gives you). I can't remember the exact formula and too lazy to search for it atm, which is why you felt like your damage got lower...
  • AtherionAtherion
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    edited September 22, 2019
    You forgot to consider the damage you gain from the initial attack over defense. At 6k ad, it will still make up around 20% of your total effective attack assuming you cap attack at 10k over boss defense.

    And adding to the part about attack limit, it affects both the effective attack you get from your base damage and additional damage.

    So assuming you have sufficient attack to make use of all 3350 of your attack limit,

    base dmg = 900 + (att - def) = 900 + 13350 = 14250
    additional dmg multiplier = 6.25 + (att - def - 10000)/2400 = 6.25 + (13350 - 10000) / 2400 = 7.6458

    raw effective attack = 14250 + 7.6458*6000 = 60125 for 6k ad and 3350 atr

    doing the same thing for 6750 ad and 1350 atr, you should get 58234

    So although 3350 atr and 6k ad is stronger, it is only by about 3%.


    http://vindmanual.forumotion.com/t197p15-the-rise-update

    You can find the math and data points behind it here. It is also used in the post-Rise attack calculator by LookAtMyDPS found here:

    https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/14DrIa9RCVqP3Ud68VlzWUY6bzCN6__gFo1a1tjqIaaw/edit#gid=1730641962
  • AmazingKiwiAmazingKiwi
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    Interestingly, if player A has 6000 AD and player B has 6750 AD, player A needs X more ALR to get the same effective attack,
    where
    X = (6.25 + Y / 2400) * 750 / 3.5
    and Y is the ALR of player B.
    For instance,
    1. if player B has 1000 ALR, player A needs an additional 1430 ALR (rounded to the nearest attainable value).
    2. if player B has 2000ALR, player A needs an additional 1520ALR (only attainable when the partholon update goes live).
    3. a player with 6000 AD and 3350 ALR has approximately the same effective attack as a player with 6750 AD and 1850 ALR (1845.9).
  • RakushuRakushu
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    Nokaubure wrote: »
    Rakushu wrote: »
    I transitioned from a +15 dullah to +16 astera...
    I lost overall dps due to lack of ALR, until I have a way to restore the 2k ALR Limit, so you don't really need an astera weapon atm

    Useful info, always though that +16 gives +30% dps bost while 2k alr gives +20%, but you say here that 2k alr makes more impact, I'm gonna trust you since I have no way to test it.
    But yeah cheap alr is what makes choosing dulla more favorable, most people underestimate that stat.

    It was max ALR with 5.7k AD, roughly break even with 1.2k ALR short with 6.9k AD.
    I started to see the +16 dealing more damage when I get to 1k ALR short.
    I agreed, the level 2 shards are ridiculous expensive, and majority of the mats we farm can be traded equally compared to level 1 shards back in the days.
    At least, +12 purple dullah was my source of income but who wants to gamble with +12 astera
  • AeledingAeleding
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    Atherion wrote: »
    You forgot to consider the damage you gain from the initial attack over defense. At 6k ad, it will still make up around 20% of your total effective attack assuming you cap attack at 10k over boss defense.

    Right, I did forget about this part, thanks for pointing it out !