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Sword I don't think is in a bad spot just RNG dependent.
Fixed it for you.
Even with being crit capped on the boss, sometimes I just don't get any crit even after 5-6 smashes. The boss is down for a whole minute and I basically don't do any notable damage without RNG-miracle. When this happens, my mouse just goes to the "Quick Character Change" option all on it's own for some weird reason.
I'm trying to like lann still, I really do, but this RNG crap is just not for me, I guess.
Cb, Staff, and Glaive comes to mind when it comes to characters with significantly worse dodges than Spear Lann.
Hell spear Lann has even longer inv frames and lower recovery frames than Teide Hurk and I have no trouble playing him within melee range.
And we aren’t even factoring in his unlimited stamina where he is no longer punished with a net 7% loss in hp every time he uses it.
So lets list his merits instead of focusing on only the bad.
Spear Lann has unlimited stamina, one of the highest sandbag damage in the game, little recovery frames on his attacks, and a dodge with absurd inv frames.
Those comparisons are pretty weak. CB is a terrible comparison, even for dodge, considering they don't have to dodge near as often. Staff..I'm not sure what you're talking about there, I've never found staff dodge bad and again don't even require a dodge all the time. With positioning and etc you can avoid dodging a lot more of the time than you think. Glaive isn't that great sure, but it's not awful. Teide also isn't always on top of the boss cause it's not required at all times. That's still only their dodge. We're here to compare him to other characters, not just his dodge, even if you list all the good qualities compared to new heros AGAIN they are all basically outshined by other chars, even with less gear. There's no other way for his dodge to work w/o inv frames unless you completely make a new dodge, so no duh it's going to be basically one big inv frame, that's the only way for him to dodge. It's not like inv frames are hard to hit with other chars for the handful of thing you even need inv frames for. Look at the dodge overall and tell me it's a beastly ass dodge compared to the multiple dodges other chars have. Lann has to have unlimited stamina otherwise they'd never touch a moving boss and his kit kind of requires that otherwise he would legit be the worst char period same with the recovery frames, it's kind of required by the kit he has. Because they don't add sandbag bosses anymore. So idk what that was supposed to mean for sandbag dps which they still lose to other chars in anyway lol, he's not even the top in that field. Overall as a char spear lann is not amazing compared to the rest of the cast. You're looking at the whole char, and even those merits you wanted to list, don't stack up well compared to the rest of the characters or are required to even be viable. Dodges aren't the only part of the game, and for some reason that's the only thing you can list. It's not making a super strong argument my friend. Surviving and not being able to do anywhere near the dps of chars with less gear that can not only survive easier but stick to the boss easier with better multipliers. If you're only argument is the dodge, I don't think this is going to be a very fulfilling back and forth. You've only been able to try and argue his dodge and saying inv frames bruh, inv frames also aren't the end all be all to dodges either.
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Sword I don't think is in a bad spot just RNG dependent.
Fixed it for you.
Even with being crit capped on the boss, sometimes I just don't get any crit even after 5-6 smashes. The boss is down for a whole minute and I basically don't do any notable damage without RNG-miracle. When this happens, my mouse just goes to the "Quick Character Change" option all on it's own for some weird reason.
I'm trying to like lann still, I really do, but this RNG crap is just not for me, I guess.
Abaddan, sorry it is tough for me to make it through your comments. (I like things broken up.)
But I will point out that Lann has plenty of moves that lets him stick on bosses. Just watch some of the good solos on Lugh 2.0 or Balor. The issue is you really do need good crit + you really need to instinctively know what moves to do when you don't get those crits you are fishing for, and you have to have the boss down fully. (Honestly I can't play sword well anymore, but even I can now stick on Lugh 2.0 with my glides + dodge almost all moves on spears. It just took like 50 runs for me to get to this space.)
But yeah if you don't like Lann play a different character. That is the entire reason why they made so many different characters. Just realize that Lann doesn't really get "fun" till you are basically crit capped, and that we all acknowledge that the stats creep in Vindictus really makes it annoying for casual Lann players to keep up.
Oh and for me it is that uncertainty on if I will get a crit on lightening fury, or if I need to bail out in a roll to dodge an attack that makes Lann so enjoyable. I know on say Eira that every time I do x,y,z it will always be the same. The only real uncertainty is if someone is going to spin the boss on me and I will be flinched mid sp move.
Abaddan, sorry it is tough for me to make it through your comments. (I like things broken up.)
But I will point out that Lann has plenty of moves that lets him stick on bosses. Just watch some of the good solos on Lugh 2.0 or Balor. The issue is you really do need good crit + you really need to instinctively know what moves to do when you don't get those crits you are fishing for, and you have to have the boss down fully. (Honestly I can't play sword well anymore, but even I can now stick on Lugh 2.0 with my glides + dodge almost all moves on spears. It just took like 50 runs for me to get to this space.)
But yeah if you don't like Lann play a different character. That is the entire reason why they made so many different characters. Just realize that Lann doesn't really get "fun" till you are basically crit capped, and that we all acknowledge that the stats creep in Vindictus really makes it annoying for casual Lann players to keep up.
Oh and for me it is that uncertainty on if I will get a crit on lightening fury, or if I need to bail out in a roll to dodge an attack that makes Lann so enjoyable. I know on say Eira that every time I do x,y,z it will always be the same. The only real uncertainty is if someone is going to spin the boss on me and I will be flinched mid sp move.
We're comparing him to other chars, and solo is a bad example since you're the only one pulling agro.
Compared to other chars in a party he's not going to stick on a boss and continously deal damage as well as basically any other character and again that's AS WELL AS OTHER CHARS. The dodge isn't the only thing that makes this game, I'm not sure why the dodge is the only thing people can bring up as a continuous argument. Probably because it's all they have as an argument, I guess. I've never thought of a chars difficulty in a game based solely on a dodge. His dodge is not the longest dodge or even the best dodge in the game either way, so even then it's not a great argument. Inv frames are not the same as a dodge in this game. There are chars that technically don't have any Inv frames in their dodges and only in their sp skills. Yet their dodges are still better.
Also the crit is part of another point, he requires maxed stats to reach the potential of lesser geared newer chars. He's heavily more gear reliant than basically all other chars as well.
I'm not personally a fan of an RNG based component being used for a basic mechanic such as a dodge. I doubt Im the only one that feels that way since they added emergency fury into lanns kit. I personally don't even like the current dps for karok being heavily reliant on big bang which is fairly RNG on some aspects as well as taking what is supposed to be a brawler out of combat to launch a projectile.
P. S. This sucks to try and type on a phone with auto correct and editing for those. xD.
P. P. S. This is focused on spears mainly, as I've said I don't think swords are in a terrible spot atm.
I appreciate that smarter people that play the game came to this topic.
Yes, RNG-based combat will always be the main downside of Lann, well talking about sword lann now since its the only weapon I use. Missing a double crescent crit twice and losing my mind or doing a gust sting by accident because I expected a glide are things that happens to me even after years of playing.
However... I have quite good experience with other characters, and all I can say is that sword lann downside balances his upsides, I will just sumarize them
+ One of the best dodges in the game, with a lot of invul frames, very fast, and can chain into a second weaker dodge if you need to
+ Best facetanker in the game, hammer Fiona ends up with less SP if she tanks, Miri can only tank during dragon/pala/dk, rest of chars with superarmor have better strats than facetanking, this gives sword Lann massive dps in normal raids, even more when Solo
+ Very good at chasing bosses, with a bit of experience you can even chase Balor for a bit while he's running away with his horse, while other characters can only sit and watch his animations
+ Very good SP skills, any SP boost, either from trans, xgun Kai or fortune cookie, will boost Lann's dps by a good amount since he always have SP to use. He's also able to launch SP skills without losing the 100% critical buff, and 100% chance x2.25 damage furious seven or trans skills is nothing to laugh at.
+ Wide range of attack, he's able to hit multiple bosses at once thanks to 180º fanning slashes and a ridiculous big glide hitbox. Sadly nexon removed a lot of multibosses from the game so this perk is now only seen in abyssal arena or normal maps.
- Bad stamina until you reach 680 SP for the first slashing high, after that you can endlessly spam the skill so your stamina is always full. This downside can be completely removed with stamina merc potions, but not with normal stamina potions.
- Heavy reliant on crit chance of equipment. A Lann without 65% crit sucks, and you may have to give up some speed in favor of crit. This downside disappears once you're full geared.
- Glides, the best damage source of Lann, are heavy RNG reliant, at 65% chance to trigger (or 65%*65% when using double hit attacks) this has no solution at all and will always haunt you while maining this character. Having 2 different strats based on whenever a smash crits or not should be the answer, however the RB image shows so quickly that you get mentally tired over having to focus on the screen, and in the end you end up pressing right click to throw a gust sting or sprint smash.
- Glitch: Gust sting / sprint smash crit unresponsiveness. This is something that almost no one talks about, if Lann is not hosting, you will not be able to glide from these 2 smashes around 33% of the time, meaning Lann has more dps when hosting. If you're not hosting, try to always use double crescent or first smash, these are not glitched and will always obey you.
- Glitch: Gust sting / sprint smash crit unresponsiveness. This is something that almost no one talks about, if Lann is not hosting, you will not be able to glide from these 2 smashes around 33% of the time, meaning Lann has more dps when hosting. If you're not hosting, try to always use double crescent or first smash, these are not glitched and will always obey you.
That gust sting crit thing annoys me too. If I press the button too soon, no glide will happen, even though the crit button icon is already there.
It's another way of wasting precious crits and seconds doing no damage at all. >.>
It's just way more relaxing to play a non-RNG char than lann for me nowadays, and I basically only played lann for around 4 years. I found XE lann more enjoyable, which is why I started with lann back then.
If not for this RNG, I would still like and play lann more, but when the only thing on my mind is to pick up my PC and throw it into the trash can 80% of the time when I play lann, it's really not worth the hassle for me.
Yeah, I know, RNG is not my PC's fault, but I still get annoyed about it more often than not. :P
It is normal that new characters get more stuff than old ones . Who would want to go through pain to gear a worse version of an already geared character ?
+ Best facetanker in the game, hammer Fiona ends up with less SP if she tanks, Miri can only tank during dragon/pala/dk, rest of chars with superarmor have better strats than facetanking, this gives sword Lann massive dps in normal raids, even more when Solo
Hmm spearlann facetanking yeah, for sword lann i'd rather get windrider than facetank tbh...
+ Very good SP skills, any SP boost, either from trans, xgun Kai or fortune cookie, will boost Lann's dps by a good amount since he always have SP to use. He's also able to launch SP skills without losing the 100% critical buff, and 100% chance x2.25 damage furious seven or trans skills is nothing to laugh at.
This is something that too few people know about lann, i personally love using SH + Spear while having the buff to fasten spear animation
- Bad stamina until you reach 680 SP for the first slashing high, after that you can endlessly spam the skill so your stamina is always full. This downside can be completely removed with stamina merc potions, but not with normal stamina potions.
I don't have that many problems with stamina, but i'm using cat statue so that might be why...
- Glides, the best damage source of Lann, are heavy RNG reliant, at 65% chance to trigger (or 65%*65% when using double hit attacks)
It's actually 65%*65% chance to crit on both attacks, since you only need to crit once to activate glide you can take them as both being 65%.
- Glitch: Gust sting / sprint smash crit unresponsiveness. This is something that almost no one talks about, if Lann is not hosting, you will not be able to glide from these 2 smashes around 33% of the time, meaning Lann has more dps when hosting. If you're not hosting, try to always use double crescent or first smash, these are not glitched and will always obey you.
This depends on the host, if you have 5 bars you'll be okay for the most part, but as the quality degrades then it becomes a problem indeed.
Hmm spearlann facetanking yeah, for sword lann i'd rather get windrider than facetank tbh...
Did many, many, many tests, I'm mostly a solo player, and there's no way to do more dps by dodging even when the boss only targets you. To give some numbers, if I tank astera lugh I can beat him in 7:30 min, while if I dodge properly I beat him in 9 min. But getting some windrider buffs while tanking is the best, lets say you finished a lighting fury, and the boss is going to do an attack, instead of gust sting go for dodge -> crescent so its 100% crit. Without slashing high and trans, going for windrider is better, and also in redemeers.
Btw as some Lann's already know, nexon is aware of this and slashing high will get a nerf soon.
@Abaddan you should know I main spear... And I manage to almost always be on the boss before nearly every other character out there. It just is really knowing your character. And if you watch good spear lanns they really are capable of sticking to him as good or better than any other class.
And solo play shows just how good he can be... If you don't have agro on you it is way easier to just dps like crazy with spear. Just the issue again is to get to that level most of the folks have played him for 8+ years, and know the bosses perfectly.
@Nokaubure while I don't like the SH "nerf" I don't really know how much of a nerf it will be. 3 extra seconds, and honestly play style of gliding vrs MS are almost exactly the same on a lot of the new bosses. (IE trying to face tank on lugh is just dumb... you have to time glides.) I guess we will see, but from what I see it likely will just be a draw at best. (IE you get hit ~3 times during a face tank spree, but we get 3 more seconds.)
And again, I am not saying Lann is the king of DPS... but if that is how you rate them then spear is still in the top handful. Sword needs a bit more help, but will be there shortly. (And this is of course assuming fully geared, since it is impossible to compare 2 low geared/half skill capped characters.)
NOTE obviously I am extremely bias'd to Lann, but I do play every character. And really I have never had the extremely "fun" experience that Vindictus can give me on anyone but lann and fifi. But to anyone that doesn't like his play style... just play a different character and be happy. I don't want the devs to break his play style in an attempt to make him more like a new character ;-)
I don't know about current patch in Korea but the patch we should be on now when in Korea, iirc, Koreans considered top three as Eira -> SS Arisha -> Spear Lann.
Comments
Even with being crit capped on the boss, sometimes I just don't get any crit even after 5-6 smashes. The boss is down for a whole minute and I basically don't do any notable damage without RNG-miracle. When this happens, my mouse just goes to the "Quick Character Change" option all on it's own for some weird reason.
I'm trying to like lann still, I really do, but this RNG crap is just not for me, I guess.
Those comparisons are pretty weak. CB is a terrible comparison, even for dodge, considering they don't have to dodge near as often. Staff..I'm not sure what you're talking about there, I've never found staff dodge bad and again don't even require a dodge all the time. With positioning and etc you can avoid dodging a lot more of the time than you think. Glaive isn't that great sure, but it's not awful. Teide also isn't always on top of the boss cause it's not required at all times. That's still only their dodge. We're here to compare him to other characters, not just his dodge, even if you list all the good qualities compared to new heros AGAIN they are all basically outshined by other chars, even with less gear. There's no other way for his dodge to work w/o inv frames unless you completely make a new dodge, so no duh it's going to be basically one big inv frame, that's the only way for him to dodge. It's not like inv frames are hard to hit with other chars for the handful of thing you even need inv frames for. Look at the dodge overall and tell me it's a beastly ass dodge compared to the multiple dodges other chars have. Lann has to have unlimited stamina otherwise they'd never touch a moving boss and his kit kind of requires that otherwise he would legit be the worst char period same with the recovery frames, it's kind of required by the kit he has. Because they don't add sandbag bosses anymore. So idk what that was supposed to mean for sandbag dps which they still lose to other chars in anyway lol, he's not even the top in that field. Overall as a char spear lann is not amazing compared to the rest of the cast. You're looking at the whole char, and even those merits you wanted to list, don't stack up well compared to the rest of the characters or are required to even be viable. Dodges aren't the only part of the game, and for some reason that's the only thing you can list. It's not making a super strong argument my friend. Surviving and not being able to do anywhere near the dps of chars with less gear that can not only survive easier but stick to the boss easier with better multipliers. If you're only argument is the dodge, I don't think this is going to be a very fulfilling back and forth. You've only been able to try and argue his dodge and saying inv frames bruh, inv frames also aren't the end all be all to dodges either.
I know that feels haha.
But I will point out that Lann has plenty of moves that lets him stick on bosses. Just watch some of the good solos on Lugh 2.0 or Balor. The issue is you really do need good crit + you really need to instinctively know what moves to do when you don't get those crits you are fishing for, and you have to have the boss down fully. (Honestly I can't play sword well anymore, but even I can now stick on Lugh 2.0 with my glides + dodge almost all moves on spears. It just took like 50 runs for me to get to this space.)
But yeah if you don't like Lann play a different character. That is the entire reason why they made so many different characters. Just realize that Lann doesn't really get "fun" till you are basically crit capped, and that we all acknowledge that the stats creep in Vindictus really makes it annoying for casual Lann players to keep up.
Oh and for me it is that uncertainty on if I will get a crit on lightening fury, or if I need to bail out in a roll to dodge an attack that makes Lann so enjoyable. I know on say Eira that every time I do x,y,z it will always be the same. The only real uncertainty is if someone is going to spin the boss on me and I will be flinched mid sp move.
We're comparing him to other chars, and solo is a bad example since you're the only one pulling agro.
Compared to other chars in a party he's not going to stick on a boss and continously deal damage as well as basically any other character and again that's AS WELL AS OTHER CHARS. The dodge isn't the only thing that makes this game, I'm not sure why the dodge is the only thing people can bring up as a continuous argument. Probably because it's all they have as an argument, I guess. I've never thought of a chars difficulty in a game based solely on a dodge. His dodge is not the longest dodge or even the best dodge in the game either way, so even then it's not a great argument. Inv frames are not the same as a dodge in this game. There are chars that technically don't have any Inv frames in their dodges and only in their sp skills. Yet their dodges are still better.
Also the crit is part of another point, he requires maxed stats to reach the potential of lesser geared newer chars. He's heavily more gear reliant than basically all other chars as well.
I'm not personally a fan of an RNG based component being used for a basic mechanic such as a dodge. I doubt Im the only one that feels that way since they added emergency fury into lanns kit. I personally don't even like the current dps for karok being heavily reliant on big bang which is fairly RNG on some aspects as well as taking what is supposed to be a brawler out of combat to launch a projectile.
P. S. This sucks to try and type on a phone with auto correct and editing for those. xD.
P. P. S. This is focused on spears mainly, as I've said I don't think swords are in a terrible spot atm.
Yes, RNG-based combat will always be the main downside of Lann, well talking about sword lann now since its the only weapon I use. Missing a double crescent crit twice and losing my mind or doing a gust sting by accident because I expected a glide are things that happens to me even after years of playing.
However... I have quite good experience with other characters, and all I can say is that sword lann downside balances his upsides, I will just sumarize them
+ One of the best dodges in the game, with a lot of invul frames, very fast, and can chain into a second weaker dodge if you need to
+ Best facetanker in the game, hammer Fiona ends up with less SP if she tanks, Miri can only tank during dragon/pala/dk, rest of chars with superarmor have better strats than facetanking, this gives sword Lann massive dps in normal raids, even more when Solo
+ Very good at chasing bosses, with a bit of experience you can even chase Balor for a bit while he's running away with his horse, while other characters can only sit and watch his animations
+ Very good SP skills, any SP boost, either from trans, xgun Kai or fortune cookie, will boost Lann's dps by a good amount since he always have SP to use. He's also able to launch SP skills without losing the 100% critical buff, and 100% chance x2.25 damage furious seven or trans skills is nothing to laugh at.
+ Wide range of attack, he's able to hit multiple bosses at once thanks to 180º fanning slashes and a ridiculous big glide hitbox. Sadly nexon removed a lot of multibosses from the game so this perk is now only seen in abyssal arena or normal maps.
- Bad stamina until you reach 680 SP for the first slashing high, after that you can endlessly spam the skill so your stamina is always full. This downside can be completely removed with stamina merc potions, but not with normal stamina potions.
- Heavy reliant on crit chance of equipment. A Lann without 65% crit sucks, and you may have to give up some speed in favor of crit. This downside disappears once you're full geared.
- Glides, the best damage source of Lann, are heavy RNG reliant, at 65% chance to trigger (or 65%*65% when using double hit attacks) this has no solution at all and will always haunt you while maining this character. Having 2 different strats based on whenever a smash crits or not should be the answer, however the RB image shows so quickly that you get mentally tired over having to focus on the screen, and in the end you end up pressing right click to throw a gust sting or sprint smash.
- Glitch: Gust sting / sprint smash crit unresponsiveness. This is something that almost no one talks about, if Lann is not hosting, you will not be able to glide from these 2 smashes around 33% of the time, meaning Lann has more dps when hosting. If you're not hosting, try to always use double crescent or first smash, these are not glitched and will always obey you.
It's another way of wasting precious crits and seconds doing no damage at all. >.>
It's just way more relaxing to play a non-RNG char than lann for me nowadays, and I basically only played lann for around 4 years. I found XE lann more enjoyable, which is why I started with lann back then.
If not for this RNG, I would still like and play lann more, but when the only thing on my mind is to pick up my PC and throw it into the trash can 80% of the time when I play lann, it's really not worth the hassle for me.
Yeah, I know, RNG is not my PC's fault, but I still get annoyed about it more often than not. :P
Hmm spearlann facetanking yeah, for sword lann i'd rather get windrider than facetank tbh...
This is something that too few people know about lann, i personally love using SH + Spear while having the buff to fasten spear animation
I don't have that many problems with stamina, but i'm using cat statue so that might be why...
It's actually 65%*65% chance to crit on both attacks, since you only need to crit once to activate glide you can take them as both being 65%.
This depends on the host, if you have 5 bars you'll be okay for the most part, but as the quality degrades then it becomes a problem indeed.
Did many, many, many tests, I'm mostly a solo player, and there's no way to do more dps by dodging even when the boss only targets you. To give some numbers, if I tank astera lugh I can beat him in 7:30 min, while if I dodge properly I beat him in 9 min. But getting some windrider buffs while tanking is the best, lets say you finished a lighting fury, and the boss is going to do an attack, instead of gust sting go for dodge -> crescent so its 100% crit. Without slashing high and trans, going for windrider is better, and also in redemeers.
Btw as some Lann's already know, nexon is aware of this and slashing high will get a nerf soon.
And solo play shows just how good he can be... If you don't have agro on you it is way easier to just dps like crazy with spear. Just the issue again is to get to that level most of the folks have played him for 8+ years, and know the bosses perfectly.
@Nokaubure while I don't like the SH "nerf" I don't really know how much of a nerf it will be. 3 extra seconds, and honestly play style of gliding vrs MS are almost exactly the same on a lot of the new bosses. (IE trying to face tank on lugh is just dumb... you have to time glides.) I guess we will see, but from what I see it likely will just be a draw at best. (IE you get hit ~3 times during a face tank spree, but we get 3 more seconds.)
And again, I am not saying Lann is the king of DPS... but if that is how you rate them then spear is still in the top handful. Sword needs a bit more help, but will be there shortly. (And this is of course assuming fully geared, since it is impossible to compare 2 low geared/half skill capped characters.)
NOTE obviously I am extremely bias'd to Lann, but I do play every character. And really I have never had the extremely "fun" experience that Vindictus can give me on anyone but lann and fifi. But to anyone that doesn't like his play style... just play a different character and be happy. I don't want the devs to break his play style in an attempt to make him more like a new character ;-)