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Collection of Balor Solos for every class

VeneratorVenerator
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edited September 2, 2019 in General Discussion
I wanted to make a place where you can see how all the classes deal with Balor and how they compare to the other classes so posting this here for those that are interested.

Also very useful to see how classes are played in harder content.

Full Datasheet Here
Links to all the solos (with video) can be found inside.

TZdQITm.png

Note: This is not a class ranking for all content only relevant for a BALOR SOLO. Karok suffers greatly from his mechanics as well as some other characters not ideal for solo situation.

If there are better clears/updated ones just send me a msg. (Help me find me a Pillar Video please)

Updated 2019/8/5 New Fiona Clear
Updated 2019/8/8 Pillar Solo Found! (Well kinda)
Updated 2019/8/15 Live Bel Solo Found
Updated 2019/9/2 Better Bel Solo Found
Returner9TheDazzling

Comments

  • VladinoVladino
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    Did you take attackspeed into account too? When I check Lynn there is more than 10 points difference (which can lead in different ranking when taken into consideration)... I think 2 points are 1% attack speed so 10 points is about 5% attack speed which can be 5% dmg increase (very roughly, since some classes gain more from as than others). Also paw buffs are greater with more attack speed... So the glaive lynn there is rly just makin use of her insane amout of as (98 is rly rly sumthin else, with paw it's 157 or so I think)
  • VeneratorVenerator
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    @Vladino

    The list does not account for attack speed.

    Attack speed is very difficult to take into account for due to having different effects on each class damage output along with breakpoint where you can fit another attack in. The average attack speed for all these solos is about ~90 with some in the low 80s and up to 98.

    The only value that can be calculated for speed is how much faster it increases the animation. 1 speed = ~0.5% animation speed increase (Not all animations are affected by speed so its even lower than this value). In the case of 98 speed it is at best 4% faster animation speed. This does not mean that 8 more speed = 4% damage increase. If that extra 4% speed increase does not enable an extra attack to be fit in between boss attacks it is rendered useless. Maybe at 98 speed Lynn is able to fit that extra attack vs 90 but it is just as possible to still be able to fit that attack in with a speed as low as 70. You would need to calculate this for every single boss attack he does and factor in that difference which is pretty much impossible. What can be calculated is the damage per hit relative to a certain stat line which is what I did here.

    Lets say that 4% speed increase actually gave 4% more damage (which it does not). In Glaive Lynn's DPM case 3.6036 - 4% = 3.4594 = 28.9067 clear time. The placement is still the same (Rank 11) but the DPM calculation is much more inaccurate.

    It is better to base the clears on the other stats that can be calculated. AD/ALR/BAL/CRIT/TIME. Of course speed does affect it too but the difference in speed being so small it is better to omit it.
  • VladinoVladino
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    Yes as you said it doesnt mean 8 more speed = 4% damage increase. But you also mentioned that with more as you can be able to fit more attacks. And thats huge dmg increase for sum classes like glaive lynn. There is huge difference between stacking 10 marks in a min than stacking 8 marks in a min. Also with more attacks you gain more SP.

    Im just saying that if you can't take as into account then the balor ranking isn't accurate...
  • VeneratorVenerator
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    If this is not accurate then how would you do it?

    Attack speed is not completely ignored, speed is based on endgame build of 80-100 speed based on class/personal preference, and with all the classes speed being so close its pretty much irrelevant, The difference in speed between 80-100 is not going to allow any of these classes to add another smash in at all (except maybe spear lann). If you watch the videos you can see that often times many end up pausing between boss moves because they know they cant fit anything in between. You can see this in the Glaive Video with many pauses between attacks so all that extra speed is wasted. So in that case would it be calculated as a lower speed? What about Cross Gun Kai? You would be able to do everything at 71 Speed vs 100 Speed due to how speed works on Kai and being limited on CDs. Each class has its own ideal speed that they would want to hit and could build for it. Scaling these solos on speed would be rather dumb since speed acts differently for each class and is not measurable between classes.
  • VladinoVladino
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    Venerator wrote: »
    If this is not accurate then how would you do it?

    I think there is not much of a data to work with in the 1st place. Even statistical approach cant get you exact values just very accurate approximates.

    Let's see:
    You would do 2000 runs of balor with every class and then you would took best run from those runs and made rankings. And then for example kai would come out 1st because that 1 run he was extra lucky and almost every attack critted and balor was lazy with attacks. But if you took average cleartime off all those you would get different ranking.

    That's what im telling your ranking is - It can be true but with the data you presented it's not trustworthy.
  • AbaddanAbaddan
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    edited August 7, 2019
    Someone donate me a pillar and I'll get you a video.

    Also I'm going to disagree heavily with the difference between 80 to 100 atk spd not making much of a difference. I notice a difference in timings just from going from 96 to 99 and yes it does allow you to play more aggressive, fit more atks in and transition to a dodge quicker. Obviously it's a bigger impact on some chars vs others, but the statement of it not making a difference or allow additional attacks is straight false.
  • VeneratorVenerator
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    A Pillar video was found! Unfortunately their recording was cut at the last half bar and they did not give stats. Estimated at 6k AD 3350 ALR and 50 min time is what they claimed to clear it at. Still looking for a more completed one.

    From what I seen of speeds 80 to 100 there is definitely more lenience on attacking between boss movements, Stuff like starting the next smash combo a bit late or having more leeway on a move, but I never seen a full smash ever being able to fit in without a use of Paw/Slashing High which is entirely different than base speed since it increases animation speeds by a RAW 20% and gives att speed.

    In a hypothetical situation you can fit a smash 3 vs smash 4 once you past 80 speed, but once you get to the point of fitting smash 4 can you really fit smash 4 + smash 1 if you hit 100 speed? Continuous fast attackers could probably do this like Chain Vella in HOI/Spear Lann/Grimden so I guess that is fair to say it does make a difference for those characters. There are also classes like Miri/Blute Lynn with very long smash animations + hitdrag where you need a ton of speed to be able to do that extra smash like ~120. Then we have all the wind up chars like Delia/Glaive/Scythe which needs a high base speed to fit ideal smashes in but do they really fit another full smash at 80->100? Maybe. There are edge cases for every class and maybe you cant do something at 80 speed but can at 100. Of course this is super simplified and bosses have tons of attacks with each class having options for each attack.

    So I do agree that there is probably some difference at 80 vs 100 speed so my statement is wrong of never being able to fit another smash. However, at these endgame levels of speeds the classes are able to fit their main full damage rotations and any extra attack speed is likely very small in terms of complete damage output for a run like Balor and in this case we are comparing class to a different class not speed within that same class.

    Enough about speed :haha: I just want to appreciate good gameplay for all these classes.
  • AtherionAtherion
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    80 to 100 speed isn't really significant as it's roughly 7% faster attacking speed without factoring in drag.

    With that said, I do see some Kr vids where the user is using an event suffix ES for armor which hasn't been released in NA afaik. It gives you a chance of increasing your attack speed by 5% for 20s and can be refreshed repeatedly almost giving them a permanent attack speed increase. This tacked on with the already high base attack speed will make someone with 100 base speed look like 115.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    Vladino wrote: »
    Did you take attackspeed into account too? When I check Lynn there is more than 10 points difference (which can lead in different ranking when taken into consideration)... I think 2 points are 1% attack speed so 10 points is about 5% attack speed which can be 5% dmg increase (very roughly, since some classes gain more from as than others). Also paw buffs are greater with more attack speed... So the glaive lynn there is rly just makin use of her insane amout of as (98 is rly rly sumthin else, with paw it's 157 or so I think)

    Overall,it's generally well representative of each class potential in that particular battle.

    Speed brings something to the table,but it also has a down side and the effect of extra speed will not be the same from one class to another.

    Basically,the stamina system also has to be taken in consideration when we talk about speed.For some classes it will grant them some few extra smashes and for other it will only let them escape a little more safely between smashes.Even for some classes,it will lower their already short I-Frame to a point where it will not be safe enough.
    If you look at most of the classes that are on the bottom of the table,their videos show signs of struggle to keep up with the pace(stamina wise),especially on the horse phase. Adding more speed,for all the ressources it takes would not be worth it,in the current state of the game.

    The glaive Lynn user,used his ability to recover his stamina well,in order to keep a consistent pace,even thoe he has about the lowest(max stamina)out of all the solos.
  • AbaddanAbaddan
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    edited August 13, 2019
    Atherion wrote: »
    80 to 100 speed isn't really significant as it's roughly 7% faster attacking speed without factoring in drag.

    With that said, I do see some Kr vids where the user is using an event suffix ES for armor which hasn't been released in NA afaik. It gives you a chance of increasing your attack speed by 5% for 20s and can be refreshed repeatedly almost giving them a permanent attack speed increase. This tacked on with the already high base attack speed will make someone with 100 base speed look like 115.

    Lot more significant than stacking crit you already cap with. Based off your own numbers there, that's 7% vs 0% increase, idk man I'd call that pretty significant. Like I said I can notice a difference in just a few atk spd. Whether it's transitioning to a dodge or fitting in more, it's there. Does a lot more than an additional 5 crit I can't use except for rank.
  • AtherionAtherion
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    Sure you can notice the difference, but the question is whether that little boost in speed can let you add in an additional smash every once in a while to actually cut down on clear time. 7% faster speed then with drag added on top isn’t gonna let you do that most of the time.
  • AbaddanAbaddan
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    Atherion wrote: »
    Sure you can notice the difference, but the question is whether that little boost in speed can let you add in an additional smash every once in a while to actually cut down on clear time. 7% faster speed then with drag added on top isn’t gonna let you do that most of the time.

    Man idk how you guys play but I don't find an issue with that at all.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited August 13, 2019
    Abaddan wrote: »
    Atherion wrote: »
    Sure you can notice the difference, but the question is whether that little boost in speed can let you add in an additional smash every once in a while to actually cut down on clear time. 7% faster speed then with drag added on top isn’t gonna let you do that most of the time.

    Man idk how you guys play but I don't find an issue with that at all.

    Well there is no real issue.That's dependant on what the player wants.

    I think you play Karok,i have not tried this class ever,but for some of the classes i play for example Sylas....what takes stamina away the most is generally(smashes/dodges).....If somewhat i can afford to land more smashes,it will come to a point where i will have to stall to recuperate stamina,basically i would not hit more often with the 90+ speed,because of the stamina limitation(In Reedeemer context/no stamina pots,bath buffs,ect).

    I just passed to 76 attack speed on my Miul this week from 69,i do see a differance and it's more conveniant.However,with how i register her rotation as of right now,im pretty sure that going over 90 would only force me to walk sometimes to recuperate stamina or to use portal leap longer,wich makes the mana management more difficult,since the longer you are in portal leap state,the more mana it costs.
    (I don't really see it as crit versus speed)

    Over 90 balance,you need the necessary ressources to gain 8 balance,in order to gain 4 attack speed(replace significant by fast).To a certain extant,i find it worth it,but when it comes to spending so many extra millions to get over 90...id rather keep the gold for future content or other stuff.At least from my personal spending habits.

    Also,generally speaking,even with the latest weapon,it's always edgy to reach crit cap,when new content arrives,so crit infuses and features of such are most of the time welcomed.
    The few routes i see with an Astera wepon,for easy speed stacking would be to mix Chaotic with Valor or even Righteous,Adamant with Valor.But it depends...from a more end game prospective as in Hell Reedeemers or any context where you want to fully exploit your (Attack limit removal)...scrolls that allows you to stack the most attack are the best.(Conviction helps a lot for that,on top of other things).

    At least for me i would say 70-80 is quite comfortable and 80-90 is more than enough for me.
  • AbaddanAbaddan
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    edited August 13, 2019
    I think you play Karok,i have not tried this class ever,but for some of the classes i play for example Sylas....what takes stamina away the most is generally(smashes/dodges).....If somewhat i can afford to land more smashes,it will come to a point where i will have to stall to recuperate stamina,basically i would not hit more often with the 90+ speed,because of the stamina limitation(In Reedeemer context/no stamina pots,bath buffs,ect).

    I do mainly play karok. The stamina issues is basically just part of the game for us karok. We have a skill to restore stamina but only while hitting the boss. A buff also gives us better stamina regen for 30 seconds. You're statement in part proves you fit more attacks in though, since the only way to reduce stamina is to dodge or attack, if you're running out, you're fitting more things in. Running out of stamina is just the nature of the beast and if you're not almost running out then you're wasting your stamina right? I use stamina potions constantly out of redeemers, it's kind of a requirement for karok almost. In redeemers it's definitely more of an issue but with how quick the bosses transition and their openings to regen stamina, it's not that big of an issue. You get used to it and know when you need to do what to keep stamina up without exhausting yourself. I personally give up perfect balance by 2 points and play just slightly under crit cap in exchange for more spd. It's what's most fun to me and works the best for me, plus ranks don't matter to me so I don't build for that. Obviously it's a bigger impact on some chars vs others. My point was that to say it's not significant, or doesn't allow another attack in, or make your transition to a dodge better or noticeable as a blanket statement, especially when you already crit cap is just absurd. Any improvement to me is significant especially when it's the only area stat wise, left for improvement.
  • AngelYukkiAngelYukki
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    JessGame wrote: »

    I think you play Karok,i have not tried this class ever,but for some of the classes i play for example Sylas....what takes stamina away the most is generally(smashes/dodges).....If somewhat i can afford to land more smashes,it will come to a point where i will have to stall to recuperate stamina,basically i would not hit more often with the 90+ speed,because of the stamina limitation(In Reedeemer context/no stamina pots,bath buffs,ect).

    .

    You shouldn't need to stall on sylas with the reduced stamina cost buffs and you're playing properly even at 90+ speed
  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited August 13, 2019
    AngelYukki wrote: »
    JessGame wrote: »

    I think you play Karok,i have not tried this class ever,but for some of the classes i play for example Sylas....what takes stamina away the most is generally(smashes/dodges).....If somewhat i can afford to land more smashes,it will come to a point where i will have to stall to recuperate stamina,basically i would not hit more often with the 90+ speed,because of the stamina limitation(In Reedeemer context/no stamina pots,bath buffs,ect).

    .

    You shouldn't need to stall on sylas with the reduced stamina cost buffs and you're playing properly even at 90+ speed

    Ya the balance seems very decent from what i have seen.It didn't hit our server yet thoe,im talking about current state.Even Miul will have a feature that will help more with stamina once we get the patch.

    On another point,i generally dont play over 40 fps until i rework my current PC.I don't know about most people,but it does happen to me quite often to board boats where i have 1-2 bars connection,depending on my schedule.

    Trust me,it's quite something to Spirit Rend constantly when you play in inconveniant conditions,with a very high amount of speed.Sometimes the left click succession won't even follow up and you end up with only 2 shards instead of 6 +haha

    I also found that Neam's stamina debuff in the last phase and Neit 1 hit phase are quite troublesome to avoid with too much speed.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited August 13, 2019
    Abaddan wrote: »
    I think you play Karok,i have not tried this class ever,but for some of the classes i play for example Sylas....what takes stamina away the most is generally(smashes/dodges).....If somewhat i can afford to land more smashes,it will come to a point where i will have to stall to recuperate stamina,basically i would not hit more often with the 90+ speed,because of the stamina limitation(In Reedeemer context/no stamina pots,bath buffs,ect).

    I do mainly play karok. The stamina issues is basically just part of the game for us karok. We have a skill to restore stamina but only while hitting the boss. A buff also gives us better stamina regen for 30 seconds. You're statement in part proves you fit more attacks in though, since the only way to reduce stamina is to dodge or attack, if you're running out, you're fitting more things in. Running out of stamina is just the nature of the beast and if you're not almost running out then you're wasting your stamina right? I use stamina potions constantly out of redeemers, it's kind of a requirement for karok almost. In redeemers it's definitely more of an issue but with how quick the bosses transition and their openings to regen stamina, it's not that big of an issue. You get used to it and know when you need to do what to keep stamina up without exhausting yourself. I personally give up perfect balance by 2 points and play just slightly under crit cap in exchange for more spd. It's what's most fun to me and works the best for me, plus ranks don't matter to me so I don't build for that. Obviously it's a bigger impact on some chars vs others. My point was that to say it's not significant, or doesn't allow another attack in, or make your transition to a dodge better or noticeable as a blanket statement, especially when you already crit cap is just absurd. Any improvement to me is significant especially when it's the only area stat wise, left for improvement.

    Haha

    I was not very clear.I mean within a certain area of speed,i just keep going,with barely any breaks.It just fits perfectly to the point where you edge with 0 stamina.But on certain classes i have to stop my pace there and there,wich basically make it all come to the same,because when you stall,you're not smashing or even tracking down the boss for that matter...at least from what i've experianced.Obviously for Karok,i can't tell.

    I did the same as you,i had 100 att speed at some point with 87 balance wich is still a very good amount of balance.

    Sry to thread opener,just sharing some data i guess while we derivated on the topic(was originally from the question as if the Balor clears would be influenced by a differant gap of speed for each class)

    I found an old video where i had a speed build.My speed was probably 99,but in the video i have 102 from probably an event item.My original crit amount was probably 134 as well,wich is low for level 95 raids and not capped for Neam either.

    Basically,i tried that amount of speed pretty much everywhere and with the Hit drag that Atherion was reffering to and the left click sequences that you have to build before the smashes,i dont have time to land more hits by a significant margin at all.

    I compared clear times over and over(anywhere from 86 to 100 att speed),dps contribution in parties.It variates around the same numbers,very slight differances and relies on luck rolls(balance/crit).

    **Sylas has less hit drag than Hurk for example but he still has:



  • AbaddanAbaddan
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    edited August 13, 2019
    That's a different argument really. These are min maxed chars, stacking more crit than they can even use in these raids. If you're already crit capped, there's no argument for really taking less spd, especially In a solo where that fraction of a second for a dodge transition can mean passing or failing. Taking more spd while still crit capping sure as hell isn't going to slow down a run.

    I've never had an issue dodging things with an increase in speed on any char, for me personally it gets easier. A far second to karok I've played mostly sylas actually. I can see what you're saying about stamina but I personally haven't had any more difficulty with it than with karok. My sylas isn't quite as fast or as min maxed as my karok but he's no pleb either. My experience with atk spd must just be vastly different compared to you guys I guess. I know for a fact I couldn't play the way I do with even 5 less atk spd,because I've done it.

    Yes there are chars it's not a huge deal on, because of how they are, but to say it has no significants on min maxed chars as a blanket statement is just,to be brutally honest ignorant imo.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    Abaddan wrote: »
    That's a different argument really. These are min maxed chars, stacking more crit than they can even use in these raids. If you're already crit capped, there's no argument for really taking less spd, especially In a solo where that fraction of a second for a dodge transition can mean passing or failing. Taking more spd while still crit capping sure as hell isn't going to slow down a run.

    I've never had an issue dodging things with an increase in speed on any char, for me personally it gets easier. A far second to karok I've played mostly sylas actually. I can see what you're saying about stamina but I personally haven't had any more difficulty with it than with karok. My sylas isn't quite as fast or as min maxed as my karok but he's no pleb either. My experience with atk spd must just be vastly different compared to you guys I guess. I know for a fact I couldn't play the way I do with even 5 less atk spd,because I've done it.

    Yes there are chars it's not a huge deal on, because of how they are, but to say it has no significants on min maxed chars as a blanket statement is just,to be brutally honest ignorant imo.

    Ahah,definitely seems like we would never agree on that topic,but it's more than ok.

    There is always someone who will think that you are this,that,dumb,ignorant,arrogant,irrelevant,relevant,no matter what you do,no matter what you say.It personally plays absolutely no factor in my days.

    Atherion was a little wiser than me since he understood quick that words where being twisted...none of us talked about utility or complete insignificance,but rather major clear time differance in Reedeemer context.Nobody said that you should not stack extra speed ((on your Karok)) as well.

    These type of interactions are generally unproductive at some extant,since it becomes a pattern of words being twisted and repetitions to explain what was already explained.All of that to feed the ego.Feel free to fill more boxes thoe,i already stated my full opinion on that topic,there is nothing more to add for me.

    There is better things to be done with our time+haha