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Share your enhance and reforge experience

EnigmaTaroEnigmaTaro
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edited January 11, 2019 in General Discussion
I know some people who failed plus 11 but went to 15 straight from 11 after 1 reforge.

As for me, I hit a high enhancement at first and ended up reforging multiple times, making me ended up spending more time than these people. Such is the world of RNG.

Feel free to share your experience with the new reforge mechanics and how it affects your relationship with your pets, etc.

Pifi
  1. Restoration Rune or Steels?39 votes
    1. Safety Runes were better
       18% (7 votes)
    2. Reforge is better
       82% (32 votes)

Comments

  • DancingStarDancingStar
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    "How should it affects your relationship with your pets" ??
    Pifi
  • RakushuRakushu
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    Reforging is a nice working-in-progress for equipment.
    Everything you need can be farmed or traded with seals of bravery.
    In my case, I started with a +14 dullah weapon, 3 +12 dullah armors , 1 +13 dullah armor and 1 +14 dullah armor.
    As of today, I got a +15 dullah weapon (too bad didnt make it to +16), 2 pieces +15 armors, and 3 pieces +14 armors.
    I will just continue to reforge with the resources I am farming everyday till I reach a +15 set.
    PifiAvanZollen
  • JinyieJinyie
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    Everything except enhance runes. Unless reforging lets you use unstable enhance runes, then that's news to me. The reforging system itself is a great idea and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. My only problem is the new enhance rates from RISE which makes enhancing past +12 for weapons extremely frustrating.
    PifiZollen
  • EmerthystEmerthyst
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    Jinyie wrote: »
    Everything except enhance runes. Unless reforging lets you use unstable enhance runes, then that's news to me. The reforging system itself is a great idea and I don't think there's anything wrong with it. My only problem is the new enhance rates from RISE which makes enhancing past +12 for weapons extremely frustrating.

    You can use the seal shop unstable rune
    JinyieDaimusPifiAvanZollen
  • NokaubureNokaubure
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    I love the system, at this point I don't think they will improve alter characters by allowing us to use set, accesories and costume on the entire account, so atleast I can have a single OP character with everything +15. Reforging is one of the best things vindictus could have get.

    If I had to change something, it would be lowering seal cost of irons from 80 to 40. There's no reason to buy them over smooth chunks atleast in EU market.
    Avan
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
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    It's a great improvement in theory, just not in practice because of the mat requirements. If you like/can deal with Onslaught then you can get steel relatively cheaply overall, though it might cost your sanity. In terms of value, though, the amount of steel for a single try from 12 to 13, for instance, for a 100 weapon is worth almost 166m in gold. Add in a 40m weapon essence, and two 12m gold ores and you're looking at well over 200m per try. Fail once and your next try after reforging again leaves you sitting at what it would have cost had you simply sold your +12 and paid the difference to buy a +13. Fail twice and keep going and you're worse off than you would have been had you bought a +13 outright. That's a very precipitous change in fortunes with no means of mitigating the risk.

    This of course assumes a +13, 14, etc., to buy, but the fact is that it is an extremely expensive system for us. Having the same mat requirements as KR with a much less active population--even with bots trying their best =p--just doesn't make it a great experience. I'm leaving it alone for now because it doesn't make sense cost-wise. I gave it a go on a Dulla weap with steel from the AP shop event and the free packs we've gotten from "Golden Time" since Dulla mats are cheap and we were given steel and runes that would expire anyway. It failed at no big loss since most of the items were free/inexpensive, but doing that over and over again since I'm one of those who doesn't like Onslaught would be mind-numbing and just make me hate even playing the game.

    TLDR: could be great, but it doesn't make financial sense for most players. Not worth trying at all for anything below +12, and even then it might be questionable if you don't like farming via Onslaught. The cost really needs to be better balanced for NA/EU/AUS population.
    BOK_CHOIPifiAvanZollen
  • BodyramBodyram
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    Hi,for pay NX whit Mobil not function? I am Italy.
  • ChubuiChubui
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    TLDR: could be great, but it doesn't make financial sense for most players. Not worth trying at all for anything below +12, and even then it might be questionable if you don't like farming via Onslaught. The cost really needs to be better balanced for NA/EU/AUS population.

    I disagree. The cost seems fair enough in terms of materials for Astera weapons. Reforging seems like a good thing in the context of the current game. It will always come down to RNG when it comes to enhancing. The responsibility is in the control of the player. It wouldn’t really make sense if reforging would cost less.
  • VladinoVladino
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    Chubui wrote: »
    TLDR: could be great, but it doesn't make financial sense for most players. Not worth trying at all for anything below +12, and even then it might be questionable if you don't like farming via Onslaught. The cost really needs to be better balanced for NA/EU/AUS population.

    I disagree. The cost seems fair enough in terms of materials for Astera weapons. Reforging seems like a good thing in the context of the current game. It will always come down to RNG when it comes to enhancing. The responsibility is in the control of the player. It wouldn’t really make sense if reforging would cost less.

    I agree with @Prototypemind. For casual players + poorly equipped it's too costly and for those that play 24/7 (4-10 hours per day) it's ok. The more op you are the faster you can improve to +15 , thus increasing the gap between hardcore players vs newbies/casuals...

    But thats the direction vindi is heading now. Since RISE gear to dps ratio changed from fast start → slow end to slow start → fast end (if end is +15 else there is huge jump if you want +16).

    I'd suggest them to give daily mission more meaning. In some other games daily mission let you progress every day by completing them in vindi +1* in 80 days , +11 enchant rune with 3 steels per month can't even be called progress...
    DaitangoNecromorphPifi
  • ChubuiChubui
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    Vladino wrote: »
    Chubui wrote: »
    TLDR: could be great, but it doesn't make financial sense for most players. Not worth trying at all for anything below +12, and even then it might be questionable if you don't like farming via Onslaught. The cost really needs to be better balanced for NA/EU/AUS population.

    I disagree. The cost seems fair enough in terms of materials for Astera weapons. Reforging seems like a good thing in the context of the current game. It will always come down to RNG when it comes to enhancing. The responsibility is in the control of the player. It wouldn’t really make sense if reforging would cost less.

    I agree with @Prototypemind. For casual players + poorly equipped it's too costly and for those that play 24/7 (4-10 hours per day) it's ok. The more op you are the faster you can improve to +15 , thus increasing the gap between hardcore players vs newbies/casuals...

    But thats the direction vindi is heading now. Since RISE gear to dps ratio changed from fast start → slow end to slow start → fast end (if end is +15 else there is huge jump if you want +16).

    I'd suggest them to give daily mission more meaning. In some other games daily mission let you progress every day by completing them in vindi +1* in 80 days , +11 enchant rune with 3 steels per month can't even be called progress...

    Even for rich people, reforging can be a huge dent in their gold. While I do agree that there should be more consistency in steel gains other than onslaught, I don’t think reforging is that BAD of a system.

    Also for casual players, they have the choice to reforge or to save up for the weapon straight up. As I’ve said before, enhancing is always a GAMBLE. You should’nt attempt it if you’re a casual player unless you’re willing to cope with the losses.
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
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    edited January 14, 2019
    It really doesn't matter how rich you are, though, unless you just have to have the weapon ASAP.

    +13 Astera weap: 750m

    +12 Astera weap, and two reforges: 300m+ for the weapon, 200m+ per attempt. Yes, if you get lucky on the first try before booming or on the first reforge you come out ahead, but only up to that point. Two reforges breaks even, leaves you with a bound weapon, and still only has a 25% chance of success. Say you have one of the +6% Goib stones: now your chance is 31%, so still less than 1 in 3 odds of succeeding, which means odds are it will still take additional tries at 200m+ in material per try. Keep in mind that even after 7 failures your success rate only goes to 38%--44% if you use a +6 Goib.

    You only reach 100% success after 8 failures, so if you happen to have bad luck that's over 1.6 bil gold worth of mats to get there, and 300-350m that +12 cost to begin with. It's a much better value to buy a +13 weapon outright for 750m and still have a weapon that you can unbind and resell to recoup gold later than it is to try for +13 Astera on your own and possibly spend the equivalent of nearing or beyond 2 bil in materials. Keep in mind as well we're talking now where Steel is 4.8m a piece; initially it was closer to 9m and some people still went all in on reforge attempts.

    For +14 it takes 10 fails to guarantee success, and 12 fails to guarantee success to reach +15. Yes, you could certainly succeed before then, and +14/15s are rare, but if luck isn't on your side that's 6 billion+ in materials to get there. People throwing around prices for +15 100s have been offering in the neighborhood of 4 billion. Even at 5 or 5.5 billion you still come out ahead of what could be the worst case scenario with reforging--and keep in mind that your odds do not go over 50% until you reach the final guaranteed success attempt. Heck, they only hit 50% even for trying +15 on the next to last maximum fails. For a +12 95 weapon you're looking at 100m+ per try, so the story repeats: for the majority it will be less expensive to simply buy a +13/14/15 95 weapon.

    The bottom line is this: if you're fine with grinding Onslaught to get your steel relatively efficiently then reforging isn't going to be horrible for you in terms of how long it takes you to gather Steel. That said, the odds are such that you will more likely fail than succeed each try until you get to 100% from failstacks. It is still a more financially sound and time sound investment to simply buy what you want, it's that simple. The bots cannot farm enough steel or essences and ores/shards/chunks at this point to make the system efficient enough for it to be the better alternative.

    If NA were as active as KR the Reforge system might very well come out ahead, but we aren't, and for most players Reforging is the most expensive way to attain high enhance gear.
    PifiAvan
  • EmerthystEmerthyst
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    @prototypemind I'm not sure what else you would propose. The end point of vindi is always going to be gear and if they made getting +15 like over a month or less everyone would quit out of boredom at endgame. I personally don't mind the current steel distribution of about one high enhance try per month (using free methods). I think reforge solves the biggest gripe i had with the old perma boom system of nullifying any material synthesis done or scrolls done and destroying rare fuses. With reforge you know it will eventually happen with the old system you just had to pray to rng and potentially be +12(or +13) forever.
    Pifi
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
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    I'd propose they adjust the steel costs or give us more efficient ways to earn it. There's little point to having a system like this if it's so prohibitive that simply buying what you want continues to be the better way to get there. Again, the issue is that NA/AUS players aren't plentiful enough to pull enough drops to give it balance.

    That said, I know it won't happen. The point of what I was stating is simply that the system is not a good value, and watching guildies in chat getting dejected because they're blowing 200m a pop to get nowhere isn't very encouraging to players new or old. In theory this could have been a great system but in practice with NA's economy it just doesn't work. That's just Nexon/DevCat at this stage. NA's team fought for and got the seal shop that had seal prices that made sense and gave players a chance to guarantee reasonable returns for playing no matter how bad their RNG was. Then we even got +11, +12, and +13 stones after 95 dropped. The guaranteed stones are gone, and now we're at a point that the mat prices in the shop for 95 gear--which isn't even BiS anymore by a long shot--is obscene. The bots at least keep up enough that it's a much better buy to purchase 90/95 mats from the MP rather than from the seal shop.

    Nexon reversed course from 90 to 95 with the seal shop changes, and Reforging is D.O.A. in terms of being a viable way to go. 100m or more per try for 95 gear when it's so cheap to take to +12? It costs less to yolo a new +12 and pop OJ chunks in it than to reforge a popped Dulla weap/armor. It's cheaper to buy premade +12 95 weapons and armor from the MP already full OJ than to try once with Steel. Reforging was great in concept and exactly what people had been asking for since this game launched, but the execution is horrid and it's exactly why Vindi will continue to burn people out rather than ever reaching steady retention.

    My proposal would be that they fix the drop rates for Steel as a result of taking NA's population into account, but that won't ever happen. The numbers don't lie: it will cost more on average to Reforge than to just buy what you want, period. Statistics are statistics, and when the odds favor failure on every attempt you don't win against the house unless you're a statistical anomaly, it's really that simple.
    PifiBOK_CHOIWilkoAvan
  • noctrednoctred
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    edited January 14, 2019
    The numbers don't lie: it will cost more on average to Reforge than to just buy what you want, period.

    The problem is there's no market for what you're suggesting. I don't foresee anybody selling +14 or +15 astera gear for a long, long time. Even finding +13 astera gear (weapons in particular) of your desired type is very difficult - and even if the rare piece does show up on the market, the demand will completely overshadow supply and what you're suggesting will remain unrealistic for the vast majority of players... because let's be honest, rich people are more likely to snipe these items than people who are struggling to fit a few reforges in.

    Reforging, in my opinion, is hardly DOA. The pricing may seem a little sketchy but it provides guaranteed returns for time played - unless you're somebody who expects to complete all of your reforging goals in a month or two, the system is perfectly workable. Just look at it as a long term goal.

    Also, there are like 55 pages of botted steel on the MP right now with stacks ranging from 1 to 97 (many high stack listings). So tbh availability of steel doesn't seem to be an issue. Availability of gold to buy the steel might be a problem for some players, but that doesn't devalue the reforging system imo.
    PifiLoLoBooty
  • ikeviikevi
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    edited January 14, 2019
    noctred wrote: »

    Also, there are like 55 pages of botted steel on the MP right now with stacks ranging from 1 to 97 (many high stack listings). So tbh availability of steel doesn't seem to be an issue. Availability of gold to buy the steel might be a problem for some players, but that doesn't devalue the reforging system imo.

    I am guessing that we only have 1 group capable of botting the raids. And they have agreed upon the prices of all the raid drops. That is why things haven't dropped like they did back in the 2 mil mael es days.

    Personally the reforge system is a good step in the right direction. It still costs too much even for folks with gold. 60 steel + weapon ess + 2 oranges is just too much even if it is for +14 ->+15 weapons. It really is no cheaper to make a +15 than it was in the double boom days. (And that was without the bots...)
    PifiPrototypemindAvan
  • noctrednoctred
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    edited January 14, 2019
    ikevi wrote: »
    It really is no cheaper to make a +15 than it was in the double boom days. (And that was without the bots...)

    That's not the point - it may not be cheaper (if you get very unlucky) but it's guaranteed over time. I went through the entirety of S2 and never saw anything higher than +12.
  • ikeviikevi
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    edited January 14, 2019
    noctred wrote: »
    That's not the point - it may not be cheaper (if you get very unlucky) but it's guaranteed over time. I went through the entirety of S2 and never saw anything higher than +12.

    Look I doubled boomed over 45 weapons for my first +15... I only got a +13/14 demain/polmian because of the pocket knife event. I know it used to suck, and it still sucks. But I am just saying that Prototypemind is right. That is the before +11/12/13 guaranteed way was much better for folks without money. Once you do get money it still is better to just buy it.

    And I must add that since I already have good gear I am not willing to buy steel with my hard earned gold, so everything for me is just from farming. (I tend to do a bit better than once a month for 60+ steel but it is only "ok" for folks like my that play way too much.)


    Pifi
  • noctrednoctred
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    edited January 14, 2019
    ikevi wrote: »
    But I am just saying that Prototypemind is right. That is the before +11/12/13 guaranteed way was much better for folks without money. Once you do get money it still is better to just buy it.

    And then you've come full circle to the fact that there's no market for anything past +13 - there's effectively no market for +13 astera weapons either.

    Think about how many +15 items have been sold historically and what kind of players ended up being the buyers - "just buy it" is a nice sentiment but it's completely out of reach for the vast majority of players when it comes to high enhance items. Much further out of reach than reforging items on their own.
    Pifi
  • ikeviikevi
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    edited January 14, 2019
    noctred wrote: »
    And then you've come full circle to the fact that there's no market for anything past +13 - there's effectively no market for +13 astera weapons either.

    Think about how many +15 items have been sold historically and what kind of players ended up being the buyers - "just buy it" is a nice sentiment but it's completely out of reach for the vast majority of players when it comes to high enhance items. Much further out of reach than reforging items on their own.

    I am not focused on just +15. I have seen multiple astera weapons at +13 going for ~750m. I have friends that are just buying their armor... for basically the same price they sold their dul gear for. (Heck one just managed to get a +15 armor piece for 650m...)

    Again you need the gold, but if you bought steel for +12/13 then you should have just bought them instead.

    (Note I say this, but even I am one of those poor fools that is going to reforge +12 gear...) But again that is just using steel I manage to farm.)
    Pifi
  • noctrednoctred
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    edited January 14, 2019
    ikevi wrote: »
    I am not focused on just +15.

    I'm primarily focused on 14 and 15 because that is the point where reforging begins to surpass any system this game has had prior and gains the most value. I stand by my statement that there is no effective market for +14 and +15 astera weapons (one weapon showing up once in a blue moon is not an effective market) and will not be for a very long time. I've seen a few +13 astera weapons floating around on the MP as well but even that is minuscule supply relative to the demand that you are suggesting.

    People can take whatever route they like but it's difficult to deny, imo, that reforging opens up opportunities for players they've never had before - not because they were cost prohibitive, but because they were supply (and RNG) prohibitive.
    Pifi