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I agree in all u say Ortix especially in the Combo system, even if no lags in the party with 4ppl in raid fall more than the previous 8ppl ... just hit hit hit and MEEEH *pf pls?* or just cry.
I watch a lot as they play and I still believe that Rise's update killed the fun in vindi. Bye Bye funny duos... well multiprocess dont work fine when i host ;_;
If u got some difficult u learn ur class.
I am disappointed enough that the big difference that made to the vindi (not only the lag and the long maintenance days) now is like almost everyone else to go up fast and be very strong in stats and forget about the *dodge* that the raid or royal will last 5 minutes...
Gear rank ?? really? I play without interface in battles so maybe Combo Rank is better and motivate the players to *play*.
I would like to recommend the vindi again... umm or now it's Berbhictus?.
(Sorry for my english)
From solo player perspective changing from 4 to 8 ppl raids without scaling bosses' HP (like it is now after Rise)? Hell No! I dont wanna fight Arkana or Aes for about 50min with an average gear. Dont get me wrong I love my fights last for 15-20min but 50? It is way too long.
From my point of view it seems like the main reason for the majority of people to go back to 8 man raids is just a nostalgic thing, well I didnt play much before Rise and to me 8 man raids mean almost nothing.
I personally don't like "combo mechanic" either, I think it would force people to play as safe as possible to keep their buffs, dodging would be priority, no more risky but rewarding/cool looking moves. Did you see Ein Lacher gold medal vidoes on youtube? Its just so sad looking fights...
I dont care about people who can stack their def and facetank everything, if they wanna do this then by all means... if you dont like playing that way then just dont nobody's forcing you to.
What I would love to see is returning of true hero mode (with bosses' increased speed and modded monsters) for all dungeons. Of course it would be nice to have good rewards for those as well but the true reward is an awesome fight itself am I right?
I agree with most of what op stated in his original post ( I'm sure we played in the same pt here and there ) especially points 1 & 4 because yes i'm an XE nostalgic. I liked 8-man raid, I could meet a lot of players and the random 8 man pt trains back then were much funnier than the random 4 man parties you currently join and instantly leave via QB. And as most ppl I was greatly disappointed by the way Rise made the game heavily gear oriented.
From solo player perspective changing from 4 to 8 ppl raids without scaling bosses' HP (like it is now after Rise)? Hell No! I dont wanna fight Arkana or Aes for about 50min with an average gear. Dont get me wrong I love my fights last for 15-20min but 50? It is way too long.
Wasn't it just fine before Rise when raid bosses hp scaled from 1 to 4 players ?. Soloing was relatively fast even with average gear. Most parties clear s3 raids in 2 freaking minutes now. Hell, I even solo regina in less than 3 mins post-rise. Those are no awesome fights anymore.
I personally don't like "combo mechanic" either, I think it would force people to play as safe as possible to keep their buffs, dodging would be priority, no more risky but rewarding/cool looking moves. Did you see Ein Lacher gold medal vidoes on youtube? Its just so sad looking fights...
Isn't dodging already a priority in an action game like Vindictus ? Thing is most bosses are barely hurting us that some ppl don't even bother dodging and thus do not even learn proper gameplay with their characters ( You can even see some ppl trans right away to melt bosses down with the new overpowered DK/Paladin ). Back in XE, playing aggressive while maintaining a super low hit count allowed some +12 ppl to roll over some +15 users in raids making gear less relevant than it is now.
I really wanted to highlight this last part so ppl don't get me wrong replying "But the game is not all about dps" ( yea i'm talking about you there whoever you are, I saw you coming ) but understand that the combo system made the game feel less p2w.
Sorry randomiza but your "solo player perspective" is quite incomprehensible for me.
There are couple statements that I don't get it.
1. On what basis you can say that after changing number of group from 4 to 8 fight would last 50 minutes?
In addition if you are solo player which I used to be myself in other days, your gear can’t be “average” to make dungeon without any help.
I understand that you are not familiar with 8-players dungeons and I can imagine.
However Vindictus is MMORPG (rather Action MMO with co-op now) and that means that most players want to cooperate with others in the name of online game.
Also I didn’t said that scaling HP would be bad idea, but its not the point.
It can be for example just another mod (Mythic, Hell, Hardcore or something) like we have Hard and Hero, for players whose want to more challenging fight with their friends.
2. Combo system that you don’t like (I respect that but don't understand as well) you just said about Ein Leacher fights that they are “sad”.. what is the meaning of this?
Ein Lacher is just additional “challenge” for skilled players to get more statistic.
It means that no getting hit = skills, knowledge of boss and potential of your character
Of course you can fight like dodging all boss attacks without Combo or Debuff system but it will just delay dungeon accomplish.
There should be kinda “reward” for no getting hit to increase your dmg lil bit or just decrease for those who are unskilled and just facetanking.
That's fair system and without it it's just like better EQ = Everything. VIndictus never been like this.
3. As you said on the last: “What I would love to see is returning of true hero mode”
Well there is Hero mode with: “with bosses' increased speed and modded monsters” as well.
Season 3 bosses are 3 times stronger and harder to kill, also faster and more aggressive, also with additional core and special box. All those thing are already i game.
Average time to complete Hero Eachoid for example is like 15-20 minutes with party of 4 players.
So I don’t understand why you just shout that “wish of yours”.
I understand your statement… partly and I respect that but If your argumentation is going to be like that; Im recommend you to start playing single-player games.
Maybe Nexon (or who ever) could fix that FPS drops, laggs, and make this game more enjoyable.. I don't know how u want to make 8 people Raids where it is already hard to find 4 people to start a raid... And who will be able to Host 8 player raids... i agree with most of the points but at first.. please give this awesome game some petter performance..
All you guys telling op a forum post isn’t gonna do anything just chill. They said this is the first step and to gather input from us the community. I’m a little pessimistic when it comes to these things, but I guess I’ll try being optomistic.
+ Add Normal and PP Neam to quick battle
+ Add MP to Berbhe
Glad to see someone who appreciates Vindictus and is willing to take action. So I wish you the best of luck for whatever happens next.
MP in Berbhe should be added long time ago. It's such a beautiful town. If there is market, I would be there all the time (not colhen etc.) . I may understand about storyline but Nexon dont give a fck...
Before everything, I want to apologize about my english and please ignore if any mistakes were made. I want to state that I mostly agree with the problems, which I will make additions or comments about, mentioned by OrtRisa. I'm playing Vindictus around for 7 years too. I started with Fiona when there was only Fiona, Lann and Evie. After the release of Kai, I continued my adventure as Kai and lastly (after testing and trying all character except Karok) I found myself as Arisha. Also I'm not happy about not every but majority of the current situations of Vindictus. Me and my guild mates, friends were talking about this subject for a long time (probably after the beginings of s3, I don't remember exactly). In Vindictus, I experienced new feelings, events and people which I can't find in any nother MMO. It was an amazing experience for me to be part of this game. I will start with the problems mentioned by OrtRisa and will continue with my additions.
1-)More 8-players Raids
I think that the benefit of 4 player raid system is the connection. Since we are the hosts of those raids, not all player have good connection to host 8 but 4. On the other hand, I agree the ideas stated by OrtRisa.
For me, 8 or 4 player, doesn't matter that much. All that matters from 8 player era to 4 player era to me that the loss of challenge, teamwork (not on all dungeons) and lastly the fun. At the S2 era, we were doing plans and assign roles for every player in party. For example, at kraken raid, 4 player marked as tentacle team and other 4 was at head which they were responsable for the tentacle team's conditions like hp, extra monster etc.
I can't find fun in Vindictus anymore because we used to play and work together instead of ''everyone is responsible for themselves'' style in majority of the raids. We were hooking cough persons to Havan's sand storm, saving persons from Kraken, trying to hook same horn of Lavasat, get pass the last stage of Chrom with limited(!) goddess grace, transform or even throwing spears to each other (was fun), using light of palala for Giant break off. We were doing something together and knew what we were capable of or lack of. Today, almost every friend of mine left Vindictus because of the lone wolf style. We were like family in Vindictus and now we are only playing other games except Vindictus together. That is all I want to add about this part.
2-)About Guild
Every guild is a different family for me. Families can meet, talk and do something together instead of stuck to one family bonuses and limited (4) person groups. I traveled guild to guild just for meeting new people, new environment but never lost the contact of others. Probably almost no one knows me from my server (EU) but I know majority of you with your little stories or memories left on me.
For our case, I agree with the ideas mentioned and I want to make an addition. It seems a bit imaginary and absurd but isn't that be great that we had a special place for our guilds like guild houses which we design instead of almost randomly chosen channel between 1-200.
3-)Consumable Items limited by the time-limit.
I'm a collector player. I still keep the old timed out event items in my inventory just because each of them reminds me different memory. I don't really care about their usage time but it could be nice that all of them stored in the NX inventory, which is unlimited as far as I know, instead of regular inventory so that I wouldn't find myself in a condition to throw them for inv. space at the times inventory couldn't be bough by mp.
For the usable items, I'm sorry but I find them as little cheats as personally
4-)Greater impact of statistics than on skills - Vindictus is Too Easy! Better EQ > Skill
During S2 era EQ was still problem since map hosts wanted joined players to be 19k+ att and not everyone could host but it wasn't a big problem compared to now. With +10 weapon I could deal average player with +14 dmg. I benefit the combo system a lot at those times for dmg instead of new add dmg system which is not skill but EQ based. I even made calculations from the videos I captured and made excel tables for more detailed calculations. My aim was max performance but for what? It doesn't matter know. If you have add dmg, you win that is it.
Also goddess graces wasn't raining from air. If you did a mistake with low gear, you would get 1 shot or with nice gear, you could get cough to instant killattack (?). You had to know what to do when boss does some kind of special attacks like glass's grab which was ignoring blocks.
Those were the main ideas stated. I want to make some additions.
First of all, I'm very disappointed because of the efforts I put on Vindictus until now. All I did deleted or changed by the new updates and other things. I made a average equipment calculator from Excel Tables for my guild and friends after some fan made websites. It lasted only 2 month and add dmg system came. I got the datas from old Vindictus wiki and my item- stat comparisons in game, videos etc.
Secondly, there is a two sided problem that the extreme jump of att cap in s3. For aes, you need a dullahan weapon which is not that easy to do (I'm talking about +13 because you need add dmg now and my 90 lvl weapon was +13) but on the other hand this jump pushes people to farm that area. Other problematic side of it is the drop rates and the enhance, enchant rates are still low that I still see people using 90 lvls. In my opinion, it should be less dependent on RNG since I'm not a lucky person
Thirdly, Tir coins was nice
Lastly, the ''old, older, thrash'' system. Since the release of 95 lvl items, 90s lost their importance a bit and 80s become trash. There could be a system like EQ upgrade like put 80 lvl weapon, add some other things, and Voila! make 90 lvl weapon like few other MMOs did.
I wish that the Nexon will see and care about this discussion.
If you played Vindictus for 7 years without break: please get a break.
It will help you find a better perspective. Leave for at least 6 months.
That's a friendly recommendation, because it will make your experience better.
1. 8-player raids.
I don't know anyone who quit Vindictus because of the loss of 8-man raids.
There might be such players, but I don't know them.
RISE had a lot more changes, players had a lot of reasons to leave.
You oversimplify here.
The most common reasons I know of are 'lack of content' and 'enhancement fail'.
Lack of content will always be problem, because Vindictus does one thing well, but no other stuff.
That is battles. If you played for 7 years, take a break of 1 year, come back after a gear jump and see again.
No other modes ever took of:
Not the fishing, not PvP with PvE bosses, not the PvP revamp, not the Sports Day, not the Alban Festival.
The variety of game modes is the problem as well as the amount of content.
This will mostly be the problem when comparing Vindictus to other MMOs. And Open World.
I'm sure there are tons of other reasons, but I want to keep this short.
I'm not against 8-man raids as long as:
New raids need to be designed so you can do them with 4ppl, preferably with 2 or even solo
As example: Braha would be fine with 2, but awful to solo, even if possible.
Original Kraken was for 8, still fine with 6, but less needed serious gear at the time.
Original Cromm needed more than 4 because of the 4 statue thing.
Such mechanics are bad, because they always divided players.
It doesn't matter if it works out for you, it just has the effect that you need reliable party members.
With as little of a player base this would be an attack on a vital part.
As raiding essentially is important for gearing, you can't have anyone not being able to do it.
So if you just want to have it scaled up in HP & an option to go 8, 12, 24 I really don't mind.
I could host up to 12 ppl due to my PC restrictions, I could host more in terms of upload.
But your standard size needs to be four.
Due to many limitations you don't seem to be aware of.
2. More profits from guilds.
Was just in the update. I'm not a friend of it.
You'd divide players with guilds. It produces a stat and wealth gap, that would be to big with the little playerbase.
Do you remember the guilds who regulated the market prices easily?
Enhanced guild systems work with large player bases (Final Fantasy XIV is a good example).
Not a good idea in Vindictus.
I'm a player who isn't able to play regularly. Guilds are a huge pain in other games.
Vindictus was - again - the exception to this rule.
Now we are closing in on that again and you'd like to go even further.
I see it as a bad idea for the community.
But it would take far too long to explain the whole reasoning behind it.
Let's just say ...I'm very restrictive to who I connect with.
I disagree with everything you proposed here.
3. Consumable Items limited by the time-limit.
I see. You don't remember why they are limited time only.
Players farmed stuff and hoarded it.
This doesn't sound so bad to you, because that's what you'd like to do.
The downside is - on long term, it influences the fragile market, which is as stable as it has ever been.
You might come in with the argument that Devcat should plan ahead appropriately.
But I assure you, from what we've seen since 2011, this doesn't go well.
Limited time offers often enough influence the market, but it never produces the awful state that S2 had.
Look at the bigger picture, then it will make sense.
Ofc there would be other methods as well, but time restriction is little effort and safe.
So I don't really mind, but your argument is biased.
I like Halloween stuff being restricted to Halloween.
But if it makes you happy, I don't mind permanent event items.
4. Greater impact of statistics than on skills - Vindictus is Too Easy! Better EQ > Skill
XE Combo system was a bad afterthought. badly executed & unbalanced. It made some classes vastly unbalanced.
Hammer Fiona had one of the biggest differences in damage from XE to PRE.
The characters weren't designed that way. Don't go back to a bad idea.
There are combo mechanics build in though, which are great. They are just different for every character.
I find that a brilliant idea.
Evie's various buff stacking of fire, ice & lightning for example. Deliah's Vigor. Vella's Blade Heart stacks.
Some are sensible to being hit, others are not. Those are much better solutions.
Now: your argument is, that the punishment for playing badly isn't enough.
Therefore the skill doesn't do enough extra deeps.
Rebalancing the existing combo mechanics is far better than equalizing a combo system that throws out all balancing.
Your stance obviously stems from your experience in the game.
It doesn't keep up with you skill requirement.
It is implemented. It is well implemented.
You just outgrew the challenge. That means on the bottom of your argument lurks: You don't agree with the balancing.
Also: On balancing and ADD:
Gear progression has never been easier, and it's good to get gear fast where you can join.
I'd like to see a jump item to level 90, because the content up to Ben Chenner is nice for newbies,
but a tutorial that goes on for far too long.
The +20 bullshit is insane, yes, but it means you can go on progressing infinitely if you care.
...and are stupid enough.
On the other hand: You can get your endgame weapon safely to +11 with events and have 3 tries to go beyond.
That was a dream back in the old days. How many left with broken weapons?
It was the main reason of quitters as far as I know.
It made Vindictus being banned for gambling in some countries.
They improved on this quite well.
Is ADD is too strong? So where the +15 back in the day.
If you ever outdmged a +15 (I did as well on +11 lvl 70 weapon), you either had a class unbalance & skill gap
or someone who had absolutely no idea how to play.
ADD is strong, but achievable to a certain degree. You have 3 tries from +12 onwards on lvl 90 weapons.
I consider this awesome, remembering the times when there wasn't even a weapon revival.
Also: if you're sad about ADD, go get some ATT Limit.
Isn't it great, that you get an opportunity to gear up without random chance involved?
Again: You're touching rebalancing. That's a very sensible thing in such a game.
Imo they are doing good work considering team size and possibilities.
There is tons of things that can be improved, but that's always true.
Vindictus has never been better off as far as I can tell.
You can play whoever you want and you won't be kicked for your class.
Now. On a last note: If you care about the 'fun'.
You seem to have enough guildies to play together.
Have armor & weapons that don't do ADD.
Don't use Graces. Only take one type of potion, only use 8 or 16.
Use +8 lvl 95 or +10 lvl 90 weapons.
Why not do that? Why do you want the developer to rebalance the game so you can take your gear?
I've always wondered about that.
There can only be a few reasons I can imagine (there might be more ofc).
Have some suggestions:
You think you shouldn't be able to have gear that outstats raid bosses.
So switching to lower gear means that the game lost an important part or purpose.
You actually want new content that is hard, therefore we end up at lack of content again.
You don't find players that will do that with you, because long hard fights make great memories, but aren't actually fun.
They are challenges to overcome. And you have overcome the gearing and the skill it takes.
Others might do the runs mostly for the daily thing and the social component.
That would mean changing and rebalancing the whole game because otherwise the social group will fall apart.
That's when the fear for loss of players comes in.
I think our perspectives are vastly different.
I'm sure there are various ways to approach this.
But I don't think you go at the problems from the right angle.
You didn't define the problem properly and ended up with millions of reasons why the game has flaws.
So much for my perspective, sorry for the wall of text.
I will try to get it short but I doubt it because of some things that you misunderstood.
1. At first your “perspective” is not a good idea for me, I’m the kind of player who prefers to act and my motivation to being online was primarily my guild (around 24 members) whose stopped playing Vindictus because of update from 21 June.
I'm not talking just about changing number of players in party but overall, cumulative stuff.
Personally, half of my friend list is like offline for around +400 days so dates overlapping as well.
From other hand I know whole base of player whose just took that kind of break and lost their accounts because of server marge.
2. I don't see the point of not approving 8-players Raids, not dungeons; RAIDS.
I mean that there should be option to Rainding as party of 8 members as well, just because its more fun (especially for Guilds), and its making more friendly atmosphere for team play and cooperation with other players in MMORPG game...
yes I will say it again: Action MMORPG.
Its not need to be obligatory, just a opportunity to choose between party 4, 6 and 8 for example kind of Hardcore mode with better Bosses. So In that case i think that your arguments in this topic are invalid as well.
3. About Guilds. Game is maintained by players, players builds up a Guilds to have fun together.
I'm not talking about market stuff or something it's just all about having fun together and getting stronger.
A sense of belonging to a certain group of players with which you can talk and exchange experience, feelings.
Players needs a Guild and they would like to have some perks, skills that are a reward for their hard work and cooperation.
I basically can't see any disadvantage about Guild system.
You are saying that “its a bad idea for the community”, in MMORPG...it's ridiculous.
I can’t say what is wrong with you.
4. Really… how untradeable consumable items are connected with market?
I'm just talking about keeping Consumables like Christmas Pudding to use it when your ATT/M.ATT would be not enough to fill up the attack Cap as well.
It's just a fine addition with kind of collector character.
I don't see any point and basically any logic argument of your shouts right here.
5. This is the first thing I will agree, Combo system was unbalanced like not only for Fiona, mostly for Sylas which could just make +150% bonus Combo in 2 smashes or Hurks infinite Blockade.
But I didnt even said that we need to go back for Combo System.
I mean the most important: raw ADD is too overpowered when there is no benefits for no getting hits.
Player simply facetanking all hits and all what you need to do is casting the most powerful smashes.
It's no more about skill, before RISE player with +11 weapon could easily make more DMG then someone with +15 just because of better knowledge of boss attacks and his character skills.
There just need to come into being system which will ensure some kind of rewards for skilled players or punishments for unskilled players… just to be fair, no more no less.
Ideas how to make it can be various.
In addition, I know few player whose left the game because of fails in upgrading gear but before RISE it was just impossible because skilled player could do everything with low-tier equipment. If is that so they tried and tried harder with hope that someday Uncle Ferghus and RNGesus will give them a nice smile.
Now about your last note:
I'm not playing Vindictus and other MMO’s to contemplate how to complicate it more.
The rules are simple:
having fun from fair and healthy ravalization,
making beautiful characters,
being impressed by inconvenient perfect combat system and skills,
participating in bloody battles and training hard for being as skilled as its possible,
upgrading my gear to make my character stronger than ever,
helping guildmates and other players in their dungeons
and doing my best for being the best player in whole game.
Those rules or rather “goals” working for me only taken together and in all MMORPG games.
That's why Me and many other players still would like to improve this kind of things in Vindictus.
I see that we are gets one’s wires crossed and we will not understand each other.
Anyway I respect your statement and propositions even if I totally disagree with them.
Guild Revamp is coming soon which will kill all inactive / small guilds and force players to join big active guilds if that is what you want.
Well mostly “big” Guilds are quite inactive and also number of players doesn’t always determine strength.
Small Guild with 20 strong players ready for sacrifices, and care about rest of guildmates as well seems to be even better.
If this revamp is just about “clean” inactive guild it’s fine but still not what WE, the players of MMORPG game would like to have.
I think that every game and especially Vindictus should be appointed by something better then just few, poor buffs like it is for now.
1. Small guilds with 20 strong ppl + guildmates (i suppose both online in the same moment) can't be called 'small' guild.
Idk if you play on NA or EU server but on EU a guild with 20ppl online (atm) is already decent.
Not really. Some old Devcat workers helped create Black Desert. They're basically cousins expect... one did a better job despite mmaking critical errors lately
Take a seriously look at peak player coun..While not a perfect example, its very telling , I've encountered plenty of ex Vindictus players in Black Desert. Hell there is even a guild named fororian and Mabinogi file:///C:/Users/MSI/Documents/Capture.PNG
At a time, Vindictus was huge... look at this old video. 1m views. 1m people interested
What happened to the attention?
So many people interested yet not many people stayed... the biggest reasosns vindictus is dying is simpl
1. Pve gets ultra repettive and everything feels lonely
2.PvP IS a huge crowd bringer , yet devcat failed to make it good
3. Black Desert online.... old devcat de left vindictus to create bdo to be pvp... now its hugely ssuccessful. that could have been us but we shunned what made bdo popular
4. nexon is poison,,,, . .. every game that leaves its grip does widely successful... maybe its time for a new developer and publishe
It may be too little too late however. Black Desert is making some weird combat changes and annoying some people yet they're still more popular... We should consider defeat and picclo merg into bdo. giving them our dungeon system and mercenaries otherwise we willl fade evn more into irrelevancy like DFO did for a year...they got lucky and revived a year later. Vindictus might not living under bdos shadow..
As somebody who quit BDO on multiple occasions and ultimately went back to Vindictus, I'm just gonna say that BDO's "success" in relation to Vindictus is generally misleading. The game is good but the experience it offers is strictly different and at a certain progression point you kinda start to see the cracks -
- It has literally zero worthwhile PvE. All world bosses are sandbags that get zerged down in seconds. Otherwise, the game's combat system is wasted on farming trash mobs en masse. There's simply nothing interesting to fight, which is a direct antithesis to Vindi.
- PvP is largely a mixed bag. Sieges are generally unplayable unless you somehow end up in a 1v1 (rare and only in inconsequential territories). Node wars are generally trivialized by guild dropping. Scattered world pvp is plagued by desync. Arena is fun but the barrier to entry for newer players is very high and massively time gated - it'll be a long, long time before you stop getting one shot or feel like you're anything more than fodder in guild content.
- Once you softcap, your endgame is a combination of farming a single spot 24/7 to push past softcap, chopping wood 24/7, and empire management. "24/7" is actually literal - if your computer isn't on and logged into BDO 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you're losing progress. On average, I'd estimate that 70-80% of a given channel's population is afk at any given point in time. Once you've chopped enough wood to somewhat catch up to veterans, your endgame might become marginally more interesting if you're partial to PvP. But honestly it's still 90% chopping wood outside of siege and NW windows.
--
tldr -
As a lifeskilling, exploration, and afk friendly MMO, BDO offers a lot, which is a large part of the reason why it's as popular as it is - it's a massive boon to casuals and people who otherwise don't have much time to play actively. As an action game, however, it offers surprisingly little, which is a large part of why I quit and went back to Vindi. I've said it before - I'd rather play Vindi with 500 players than BDO with 15k players.
It's kind of a **** comparison anyway. The two games have very different appeal, which becomes more and more apparent the further you push into BDO's endgame. BDO is obviously more popular and appeals to a much wider audience but it's important to understand why that is - Vindi is far more of a niche game with a far more singular purpose and while BDO touches on that niche, Vindi still does it much better.
On what basis you can say that after changing number of group from 4 to 8 fight would last 50 minutes?.
First of all I was talking about solo dont forget about that.
Aes now has 13m hp and it doesnt change if you solo him or do him in party. Let say I can kill him now in 25min. If you want 8 man raids instead of 4 then the developers have to increase his health as well right? twice at least... so therefore when I will go solo him I would face Aes with 26m HP so I would need twice more time to finish the fight. Just simple math really.
Why am I using 25min in this example? because as I was saying before it is an approximate time if you are using "average gear". To me average gear is +13 90 weap and +11 90 or 95 armour. Perhaps you can kill him faster with those sats but it really doesn't matter in anycase if he has twice more hp then no way you can finish a fight in 30 min.
If you dont understand what i said about playing too safe and how most people do thier Ein Lacher fights then it 's totally fine really, however I'm not going to explain it to you.
There should be kinda “reward” for no getting hit to increase your dmg lil bit or just decrease for those who are unskilled and just facetanking.
Well actually it is in the game already. When you get hit usually it cancels your moves and therefore reduces your damage and some charactres loose thier buffs as well.
Well there is Hero mode with: “with bosses' increased speed and modded monsters” as well.
Season 3 bosses are 3 times stronger and harder to kill, also faster and more aggressive, also with additional core and special box. All those thing are already i game.So I don’t understand why you just shout that “wish of yours”.
Are we playing the same game?After rise in hero mode bosses just have more hp, def and hit harder (for season 2 they have their old mechanics), but their attack speed is the same as in normal mode. And there is no hero mode for the regular dungeons so no more modded monsters (monsters with prefixes)! I dont count The Giant.
@rondomiza -> You never heard of hp scaling?
@noctred -> Vindi became same gridfest as BDO (or is slowly becoming), BDO at least got more things to do and it isn't purely pve oriented as vindi. Yet vindi is more lacking with new content than ever before. When will you stop playing? When you get all equip +20? Well good luck with that, I don't need to run same boss 200-500 times to get gold for maybe +13
As for this thread I'd surely love to see that old combo numbers at the right corner, old XE move, being able to jump in town (if it was buggy in battles why can't you jump in town where it wasn't bugged?), 8 man raids (there were plenty soloers, duos, 4 and 6 man back then with hp scaling), also I would like to see less diference between equip and more teambased play so even the worse equipped players can feel usefull. Those times when you were happy you have karok for clash, sylas and evie for hp regen, lynn for interrupt, kai and vella for bo. Everyone just play solo play in 4 man like you don't care about others now. I wouldn't count Vindi as MMO - it's just a singleplayer + coop game and in that genre you can find many better games out there....
Comments
I watch a lot as they play and I still believe that Rise's update killed the fun in vindi. Bye Bye funny duos... well multiprocess dont work fine when i host ;_;
If u got some difficult u learn ur class.
I am disappointed enough that the big difference that made to the vindi (not only the lag and the long maintenance days) now is like almost everyone else to go up fast and be very strong in stats and forget about the *dodge* that the raid or royal will last 5 minutes...
Gear rank ?? really? I play without interface in battles so maybe Combo Rank is better and motivate the players to *play*.
I would like to recommend the vindi again... umm or now it's Berbhictus?.
(Sorry for my english)
PP Redeemers were removed in KR as well as Guild Redeemers, but I can get behind this.
From my point of view it seems like the main reason for the majority of people to go back to 8 man raids is just a nostalgic thing, well I didnt play much before Rise and to me 8 man raids mean almost nothing.
I personally don't like "combo mechanic" either, I think it would force people to play as safe as possible to keep their buffs, dodging would be priority, no more risky but rewarding/cool looking moves. Did you see Ein Lacher gold medal vidoes on youtube? Its just so sad looking fights...
I dont care about people who can stack their def and facetank everything, if they wanna do this then by all means... if you dont like playing that way then just dont nobody's forcing you to.
What I would love to see is returning of true hero mode (with bosses' increased speed and modded monsters) for all dungeons. Of course it would be nice to have good rewards for those as well but the true reward is an awesome fight itself am I right?
Wasn't it just fine before Rise when raid bosses hp scaled from 1 to 4 players ?. Soloing was relatively fast even with average gear. Most parties clear s3 raids in 2 freaking minutes now. Hell, I even solo regina in less than 3 mins post-rise. Those are no awesome fights anymore.
Isn't dodging already a priority in an action game like Vindictus ? Thing is most bosses are barely hurting us that some ppl don't even bother dodging and thus do not even learn proper gameplay with their characters ( You can even see some ppl trans right away to melt bosses down with the new overpowered DK/Paladin ). Back in XE, playing aggressive while maintaining a super low hit count allowed some +12 ppl to roll over some +15 users in raids making gear less relevant than it is now.
I really wanted to highlight this last part so ppl don't get me wrong replying "But the game is not all about dps" ( yea i'm talking about you there whoever you are, I saw you coming
There are couple statements that I don't get it.
1. On what basis you can say that after changing number of group from 4 to 8 fight would last 50 minutes?
In addition if you are solo player which I used to be myself in other days, your gear can’t be “average” to make dungeon without any help.
I understand that you are not familiar with 8-players dungeons and I can imagine.
However Vindictus is MMORPG (rather Action MMO with co-op now) and that means that most players want to cooperate with others in the name of online game.
Also I didn’t said that scaling HP would be bad idea, but its not the point.
It can be for example just another mod (Mythic, Hell, Hardcore or something) like we have Hard and Hero, for players whose want to more challenging fight with their friends.
2. Combo system that you don’t like (I respect that but don't understand as well) you just said about Ein Leacher fights that they are “sad”.. what is the meaning of this?
Ein Lacher is just additional “challenge” for skilled players to get more statistic.
It means that no getting hit = skills, knowledge of boss and potential of your character
Of course you can fight like dodging all boss attacks without Combo or Debuff system but it will just delay dungeon accomplish.
There should be kinda “reward” for no getting hit to increase your dmg lil bit or just decrease for those who are unskilled and just facetanking.
That's fair system and without it it's just like better EQ = Everything. VIndictus never been like this.
3. As you said on the last: “What I would love to see is returning of true hero mode”
Well there is Hero mode with: “with bosses' increased speed and modded monsters” as well.
Season 3 bosses are 3 times stronger and harder to kill, also faster and more aggressive, also with additional core and special box. All those thing are already i game.
Average time to complete Hero Eachoid for example is like 15-20 minutes with party of 4 players.
So I don’t understand why you just shout that “wish of yours”.
I understand your statement… partly and I respect that but If your argumentation is going to be like that; Im recommend you to start playing single-player games.
MP in Berbhe should be added long time ago. It's such a beautiful town. If there is market, I would be there all the time (not colhen etc.) . I may understand about storyline but Nexon dont give a fck...
1-)More 8-players Raids
I think that the benefit of 4 player raid system is the connection. Since we are the hosts of those raids, not all player have good connection to host 8 but 4. On the other hand, I agree the ideas stated by OrtRisa.
For me, 8 or 4 player, doesn't matter that much. All that matters from 8 player era to 4 player era to me that the loss of challenge, teamwork (not on all dungeons) and lastly the fun. At the S2 era, we were doing plans and assign roles for every player in party. For example, at kraken raid, 4 player marked as tentacle team and other 4 was at head which they were responsable for the tentacle team's conditions like hp, extra monster etc.
I can't find fun in Vindictus anymore because we used to play and work together instead of ''everyone is responsible for themselves'' style in majority of the raids. We were hooking cough persons to Havan's sand storm, saving persons from Kraken, trying to hook same horn of Lavasat, get pass the last stage of Chrom with limited(!) goddess grace, transform or even throwing spears to each other (was fun), using light of palala for Giant break off. We were doing something together and knew what we were capable of or lack of. Today, almost every friend of mine left Vindictus because of the lone wolf style. We were like family in Vindictus and now we are only playing other games except Vindictus together. That is all I want to add about this part.
2-)About Guild
Every guild is a different family for me. Families can meet, talk and do something together instead of stuck to one family bonuses and limited (4) person groups. I traveled guild to guild just for meeting new people, new environment but never lost the contact of others. Probably almost no one knows me from my server (EU) but I know majority of you with your little stories or memories left on me.
For our case, I agree with the ideas mentioned and I want to make an addition. It seems a bit imaginary and absurd but isn't that be great that we had a special place for our guilds like guild houses which we design instead of almost randomly chosen channel between 1-200.
3-)Consumable Items limited by the time-limit.
I'm a collector player. I still keep the old timed out event items in my inventory just because each of them reminds me different memory. I don't really care about their usage time but it could be nice that all of them stored in the NX inventory, which is unlimited as far as I know, instead of regular inventory so that I wouldn't find myself in a condition to throw them for inv. space at the times inventory couldn't be bough by mp.
For the usable items, I'm sorry but I find them as little cheats as personally
4-)Greater impact of statistics than on skills - Vindictus is Too Easy! Better EQ > Skill
During S2 era EQ was still problem since map hosts wanted joined players to be 19k+ att and not everyone could host but it wasn't a big problem compared to now. With +10 weapon I could deal average player with +14 dmg. I benefit the combo system a lot at those times for dmg instead of new add dmg system which is not skill but EQ based. I even made calculations from the videos I captured and made excel tables for more detailed calculations. My aim was max performance but for what? It doesn't matter know. If you have add dmg, you win that is it.
Also goddess graces wasn't raining from air. If you did a mistake with low gear, you would get 1 shot or with nice gear, you could get cough to instant killattack (?). You had to know what to do when boss does some kind of special attacks like glass's grab which was ignoring blocks.
Those were the main ideas stated. I want to make some additions.
First of all, I'm very disappointed because of the efforts I put on Vindictus until now. All I did deleted or changed by the new updates and other things. I made a average equipment calculator from Excel Tables for my guild and friends after some fan made websites. It lasted only 2 month and add dmg system came. I got the datas from old Vindictus wiki and my item- stat comparisons in game, videos etc.
Secondly, there is a two sided problem that the extreme jump of att cap in s3. For aes, you need a dullahan weapon which is not that easy to do (I'm talking about +13 because you need add dmg now and my 90 lvl weapon was +13) but on the other hand this jump pushes people to farm that area. Other problematic side of it is the drop rates and the enhance, enchant rates are still low that I still see people using 90 lvls. In my opinion, it should be less dependent on RNG since I'm not a lucky person
Thirdly, Tir coins was nice
Lastly, the ''old, older, thrash'' system. Since the release of 95 lvl items, 90s lost their importance a bit and 80s become trash. There could be a system like EQ upgrade like put 80 lvl weapon, add some other things, and Voila! make 90 lvl weapon like few other MMOs did.
I wish that the Nexon will see and care about this discussion.
It will help you find a better perspective. Leave for at least 6 months.
That's a friendly recommendation, because it will make your experience better.
1. 8-player raids.
I don't know anyone who quit Vindictus because of the loss of 8-man raids.
There might be such players, but I don't know them.
RISE had a lot more changes, players had a lot of reasons to leave.
You oversimplify here.
The most common reasons I know of are 'lack of content' and 'enhancement fail'.
Lack of content will always be problem, because Vindictus does one thing well, but no other stuff.
That is battles. If you played for 7 years, take a break of 1 year, come back after a gear jump and see again.
No other modes ever took of:
Not the fishing, not PvP with PvE bosses, not the PvP revamp, not the Sports Day, not the Alban Festival.
The variety of game modes is the problem as well as the amount of content.
This will mostly be the problem when comparing Vindictus to other MMOs. And Open World.
I'm sure there are tons of other reasons, but I want to keep this short.
I'm not against 8-man raids as long as:
New raids need to be designed so you can do them with 4ppl, preferably with 2 or even solo
As example: Braha would be fine with 2, but awful to solo, even if possible.
Original Kraken was for 8, still fine with 6, but less needed serious gear at the time.
Original Cromm needed more than 4 because of the 4 statue thing.
Such mechanics are bad, because they always divided players.
It doesn't matter if it works out for you, it just has the effect that you need reliable party members.
With as little of a player base this would be an attack on a vital part.
As raiding essentially is important for gearing, you can't have anyone not being able to do it.
So if you just want to have it scaled up in HP & an option to go 8, 12, 24 I really don't mind.
I could host up to 12 ppl due to my PC restrictions, I could host more in terms of upload.
But your standard size needs to be four.
Due to many limitations you don't seem to be aware of.
2. More profits from guilds.
Was just in the update. I'm not a friend of it.
You'd divide players with guilds. It produces a stat and wealth gap, that would be to big with the little playerbase.
Do you remember the guilds who regulated the market prices easily?
Enhanced guild systems work with large player bases (Final Fantasy XIV is a good example).
Not a good idea in Vindictus.
I'm a player who isn't able to play regularly. Guilds are a huge pain in other games.
Vindictus was - again - the exception to this rule.
Now we are closing in on that again and you'd like to go even further.
I see it as a bad idea for the community.
But it would take far too long to explain the whole reasoning behind it.
Let's just say ...I'm very restrictive to who I connect with.
I disagree with everything you proposed here.
3. Consumable Items limited by the time-limit.
I see. You don't remember why they are limited time only.
Players farmed stuff and hoarded it.
This doesn't sound so bad to you, because that's what you'd like to do.
The downside is - on long term, it influences the fragile market, which is as stable as it has ever been.
You might come in with the argument that Devcat should plan ahead appropriately.
But I assure you, from what we've seen since 2011, this doesn't go well.
Limited time offers often enough influence the market, but it never produces the awful state that S2 had.
Look at the bigger picture, then it will make sense.
Ofc there would be other methods as well, but time restriction is little effort and safe.
So I don't really mind, but your argument is biased.
I like Halloween stuff being restricted to Halloween.
But if it makes you happy, I don't mind permanent event items.
4. Greater impact of statistics than on skills - Vindictus is Too Easy! Better EQ > Skill
XE Combo system was a bad afterthought. badly executed & unbalanced. It made some classes vastly unbalanced.
Hammer Fiona had one of the biggest differences in damage from XE to PRE.
The characters weren't designed that way. Don't go back to a bad idea.
There are combo mechanics build in though, which are great. They are just different for every character.
I find that a brilliant idea.
Evie's various buff stacking of fire, ice & lightning for example. Deliah's Vigor. Vella's Blade Heart stacks.
Some are sensible to being hit, others are not. Those are much better solutions.
Now: your argument is, that the punishment for playing badly isn't enough.
Therefore the skill doesn't do enough extra deeps.
Rebalancing the existing combo mechanics is far better than equalizing a combo system that throws out all balancing.
Your stance obviously stems from your experience in the game.
It doesn't keep up with you skill requirement.
It is implemented. It is well implemented.
You just outgrew the challenge. That means on the bottom of your argument lurks: You don't agree with the balancing.
Also: On balancing and ADD:
Gear progression has never been easier, and it's good to get gear fast where you can join.
I'd like to see a jump item to level 90, because the content up to Ben Chenner is nice for newbies,
but a tutorial that goes on for far too long.
The +20 bullshit is insane, yes, but it means you can go on progressing infinitely if you care.
...and are stupid enough.
On the other hand: You can get your endgame weapon safely to +11 with events and have 3 tries to go beyond.
That was a dream back in the old days. How many left with broken weapons?
It was the main reason of quitters as far as I know.
It made Vindictus being banned for gambling in some countries.
They improved on this quite well.
Is ADD is too strong? So where the +15 back in the day.
If you ever outdmged a +15 (I did as well on +11 lvl 70 weapon), you either had a class unbalance & skill gap
or someone who had absolutely no idea how to play.
ADD is strong, but achievable to a certain degree. You have 3 tries from +12 onwards on lvl 90 weapons.
I consider this awesome, remembering the times when there wasn't even a weapon revival.
Also: if you're sad about ADD, go get some ATT Limit.
Isn't it great, that you get an opportunity to gear up without random chance involved?
Again: You're touching rebalancing. That's a very sensible thing in such a game.
Imo they are doing good work considering team size and possibilities.
There is tons of things that can be improved, but that's always true.
Vindictus has never been better off as far as I can tell.
You can play whoever you want and you won't be kicked for your class.
Now. On a last note: If you care about the 'fun'.
You seem to have enough guildies to play together.
Have armor & weapons that don't do ADD.
Don't use Graces. Only take one type of potion, only use 8 or 16.
Use +8 lvl 95 or +10 lvl 90 weapons.
Why not do that? Why do you want the developer to rebalance the game so you can take your gear?
I've always wondered about that.
There can only be a few reasons I can imagine (there might be more ofc).
Have some suggestions:
You think you shouldn't be able to have gear that outstats raid bosses.
So switching to lower gear means that the game lost an important part or purpose.
You actually want new content that is hard, therefore we end up at lack of content again.
You don't find players that will do that with you, because long hard fights make great memories, but aren't actually fun.
They are challenges to overcome. And you have overcome the gearing and the skill it takes.
Others might do the runs mostly for the daily thing and the social component.
That would mean changing and rebalancing the whole game because otherwise the social group will fall apart.
That's when the fear for loss of players comes in.
I think our perspectives are vastly different.
I'm sure there are various ways to approach this.
But I don't think you go at the problems from the right angle.
You didn't define the problem properly and ended up with millions of reasons why the game has flaws.
So much for my perspective, sorry for the wall of text.
1. At first your “perspective” is not a good idea for me, I’m the kind of player who prefers to act and my motivation to being online was primarily my guild (around 24 members) whose stopped playing Vindictus because of update from 21 June.
I'm not talking just about changing number of players in party but overall, cumulative stuff.
Personally, half of my friend list is like offline for around +400 days so dates overlapping as well.
From other hand I know whole base of player whose just took that kind of break and lost their accounts because of server marge.
2. I don't see the point of not approving 8-players Raids, not dungeons; RAIDS.
I mean that there should be option to Rainding as party of 8 members as well, just because its more fun (especially for Guilds), and its making more friendly atmosphere for team play and cooperation with other players in MMORPG game...
yes I will say it again: Action MMORPG.
Its not need to be obligatory, just a opportunity to choose between party 4, 6 and 8 for example kind of Hardcore mode with better Bosses. So In that case i think that your arguments in this topic are invalid as well.
3. About Guilds. Game is maintained by players, players builds up a Guilds to have fun together.
I'm not talking about market stuff or something it's just all about having fun together and getting stronger.
A sense of belonging to a certain group of players with which you can talk and exchange experience, feelings.
Players needs a Guild and they would like to have some perks, skills that are a reward for their hard work and cooperation.
I basically can't see any disadvantage about Guild system.
You are saying that “its a bad idea for the community”, in MMORPG...it's ridiculous.
I can’t say what is wrong with you.
4. Really… how untradeable consumable items are connected with market?
I'm just talking about keeping Consumables like Christmas Pudding to use it when your ATT/M.ATT would be not enough to fill up the attack Cap as well.
It's just a fine addition with kind of collector character.
I don't see any point and basically any logic argument of your shouts right here.
5. This is the first thing I will agree, Combo system was unbalanced like not only for Fiona, mostly for Sylas which could just make +150% bonus Combo in 2 smashes or Hurks infinite Blockade.
But I didnt even said that we need to go back for Combo System.
I mean the most important: raw ADD is too overpowered when there is no benefits for no getting hits.
Player simply facetanking all hits and all what you need to do is casting the most powerful smashes.
It's no more about skill, before RISE player with +11 weapon could easily make more DMG then someone with +15 just because of better knowledge of boss attacks and his character skills.
There just need to come into being system which will ensure some kind of rewards for skilled players or punishments for unskilled players… just to be fair, no more no less.
Ideas how to make it can be various.
In addition, I know few player whose left the game because of fails in upgrading gear but before RISE it was just impossible because skilled player could do everything with low-tier equipment. If is that so they tried and tried harder with hope that someday Uncle Ferghus and RNGesus will give them a nice smile.
Now about your last note:
I'm not playing Vindictus and other MMO’s to contemplate how to complicate it more.
The rules are simple:
having fun from fair and healthy ravalization,
making beautiful characters,
being impressed by inconvenient perfect combat system and skills,
participating in bloody battles and training hard for being as skilled as its possible,
upgrading my gear to make my character stronger than ever,
helping guildmates and other players in their dungeons
and doing my best for being the best player in whole game.
Those rules or rather “goals” working for me only taken together and in all MMORPG games.
That's why Me and many other players still would like to improve this kind of things in Vindictus.
I see that we are gets one’s wires crossed and we will not understand each other.
Anyway I respect your statement and propositions even if I totally disagree with them.
[img]file:///C:/Users/MSI/Documents/Capture.PNG[/img]
file:///C:/Users/MSI/Documents/Capture.PNG
file:///C:/Users/MSI/Documents/Capture.PNG
Small by Black Desert standards. And these are active low tier guilds
http://steamcharts.com/app/582660
http://steamcharts.com/app/212160
Take a seriously look at peak player coun..While not a perfect example, its very telling , I've encountered plenty of ex Vindictus players in Black Desert. Hell there is even a guild named fororian and Mabinogi file:///C:/Users/MSI/Documents/Capture.PNG
At a time, Vindictus was huge... look at this old video. 1m views. 1m people interested
What happened to the attention?
So many people interested yet not many people stayed... the biggest reasosns vindictus is dying is simpl
1. Pve gets ultra repettive and everything feels lonely
2.PvP IS a huge crowd bringer , yet devcat failed to make it good
3. Black Desert online.... old devcat de left vindictus to create bdo to be pvp... now its hugely ssuccessful. that could have been us but we shunned what made bdo popular
4. nexon is poison,,,, . .. every game that leaves its grip does widely successful... maybe its time for a new developer and publishe
It may be too little too late however. Black Desert is making some weird combat changes and annoying some people yet they're still more popular... We should consider defeat and picclo merg into bdo. giving them our dungeon system and mercenaries otherwise we willl fade evn more into irrelevancy like DFO did for a year...they got lucky and revived a year later. Vindictus might not living under bdos shadow..
- It has literally zero worthwhile PvE. All world bosses are sandbags that get zerged down in seconds. Otherwise, the game's combat system is wasted on farming trash mobs en masse. There's simply nothing interesting to fight, which is a direct antithesis to Vindi.
- PvP is largely a mixed bag. Sieges are generally unplayable unless you somehow end up in a 1v1 (rare and only in inconsequential territories). Node wars are generally trivialized by guild dropping. Scattered world pvp is plagued by desync. Arena is fun but the barrier to entry for newer players is very high and massively time gated - it'll be a long, long time before you stop getting one shot or feel like you're anything more than fodder in guild content.
- Once you softcap, your endgame is a combination of farming a single spot 24/7 to push past softcap, chopping wood 24/7, and empire management. "24/7" is actually literal - if your computer isn't on and logged into BDO 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, you're losing progress. On average, I'd estimate that 70-80% of a given channel's population is afk at any given point in time. Once you've chopped enough wood to somewhat catch up to veterans, your endgame might become marginally more interesting if you're partial to PvP. But honestly it's still 90% chopping wood outside of siege and NW windows.
--
tldr -
As a lifeskilling, exploration, and afk friendly MMO, BDO offers a lot, which is a large part of the reason why it's as popular as it is - it's a massive boon to casuals and people who otherwise don't have much time to play actively. As an action game, however, it offers surprisingly little, which is a large part of why I quit and went back to Vindi. I've said it before - I'd rather play Vindi with 500 players than BDO with 15k players.
It's kind of a **** comparison anyway. The two games have very different appeal, which becomes more and more apparent the further you push into BDO's endgame. BDO is obviously more popular and appeals to a much wider audience but it's important to understand why that is - Vindi is far more of a niche game with a far more singular purpose and while BDO touches on that niche, Vindi still does it much better.
Aes now has 13m hp and it doesnt change if you solo him or do him in party. Let say I can kill him now in 25min. If you want 8 man raids instead of 4 then the developers have to increase his health as well right? twice at least... so therefore when I will go solo him I would face Aes with 26m HP so I would need twice more time to finish the fight. Just simple math really.
Why am I using 25min in this example? because as I was saying before it is an approximate time if you are using "average gear". To me average gear is +13 90 weap and +11 90 or 95 armour. Perhaps you can kill him faster with those sats but it really doesn't matter in anycase if he has twice more hp then no way you can finish a fight in 30 min.
If you dont understand what i said about playing too safe and how most people do thier Ein Lacher fights then it 's totally fine really, however I'm not going to explain it to you.
Well actually it is in the game already. When you get hit usually it cancels your moves and therefore reduces your damage and some charactres loose thier buffs as well.
Are we playing the same game?After rise in hero mode bosses just have more hp, def and hit harder (for season 2 they have their old mechanics), but their attack speed is the same as in normal mode. And there is no hero mode for the regular dungeons so no more modded monsters (monsters with prefixes)! I dont count The Giant.
@noctred -> Vindi became same gridfest as BDO (or is slowly becoming), BDO at least got more things to do and it isn't purely pve oriented as vindi. Yet vindi is more lacking with new content than ever before. When will you stop playing? When you get all equip +20? Well good luck with that, I don't need to run same boss 200-500 times to get gold for maybe +13
As for this thread I'd surely love to see that old combo numbers at the right corner, old XE move, being able to jump in town (if it was buggy in battles why can't you jump in town where it wasn't bugged?), 8 man raids (there were plenty soloers, duos, 4 and 6 man back then with hp scaling), also I would like to see less diference between equip and more teambased play so even the worse equipped players can feel usefull. Those times when you were happy you have karok for clash, sylas and evie for hp regen, lynn for interrupt, kai and vella for bo. Everyone just play solo play in 4 man like you don't care about others now. I wouldn't count Vindi as MMO - it's just a singleplayer + coop game and in that genre you can find many better games out there....