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Nexon KR fined by Korean FTC over gacha scheme

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  • DeprivedDeprived
    Vindictus Rep: 990
    Posts: 68
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    Edited, got a few posts and names mixed up.
    Someguywashere
  • SomeguywashereSomeguywashere
    Vindictus Rep: 1,205
    Posts: 75
    Member
    This is sad. For me it totally should belong to the gambling category and they should regulate it because you can't affect what you get for your money just like on a slot machine.

    Deprived
  • SomeguywashereSomeguywashere
    Vindictus Rep: 1,205
    Posts: 75
    Member
    Deprived wrote: »
    RowboCop wrote: »
    Deprived wrote: »
    RowboCop wrote: »
    Deprived wrote: »
    LadyFaye wrote: »
    Arent there bigger problems in YOUR world? Dont even think of trying to change peoples minds on some Forums (it doesnt really work).
    Oh and btw thats how Asian F2P Titles work, so... just get over it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I cringe reading such comments from a few ppl here like this one.

    You should remember that to discuss something is never wrong or pointless.
    Only brainless ppl accept everything as it is without question themselves/the others or just accepting blindly everything they get in general.

    No, it's not "how things works so just get over it".
    History, if u ever studied some, teach that a lot of changes (for the better in most cases and the worse in some cases)
    are 'due' to groups of ppl who didn't just "just get over it? ¯\_(ツ)_/" and managed within time to bring improvements in any aspect of the life.

    So the topic is quite rightfully discussed, and interesting.
    The only bad side is that most of this thread is turning into a personal debate between 2 ppl who dislike each other and nobody care.



    p.s. Robert is not a Nexon employer.

    Well said, I couldn't have said it better myself and I'm glad more intelligent individuals like yourself realize the importance of discussing these matters and the attention it's getting is well deserved.

    But please try not to give attention to those trying to derail the entire thread and turn this into a flame war rather than an important discussion on this very serious matter, like what this "robert" character is trying to do.

    And neither you nor I can say with 100% certainty that he isn't actually a Nexon employee but at the same time some have made some valid points (on top of the fact that he is THE ONLY ONE here defending Nexon's actions) as to why they think he may in fact be a Nexon employee on an alternate non-nexon employee account.

    Regardless I think we can all agree that he doesn't deserve the extra attention.

    Thanks for sharing that additional article DragonRider, your post and the article speaks for itself. After reading that, seeing how they have family members, the previous chairman CEO himself being charged with corruption and all these other criminal charges (and he likely still has other family members in the company still), not to mention all the other criminal activity going on within the company I'm actually disgusted with myself for having spent all the time I have playing one of their games.

    That guy's just a director. The CEO of Nexon is actually an American from San Francisco. I'm not talking about the regional subsidiaries like Nexon KR and Nexon NA, I'm talking about THE Nexon that oversees all the regional subsidiaries. It doesn't say so in this article, but if you google him, you'll find he's American and grew up in San Francisco.

    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-10-06-nexon-we-need-to-focus-on-heart-first-and-money-second

    Whether he's CEO or 'director' it makes no difference because the point still remains - there is a lot of corruption and criminal activity going on at Nexon like what DragonRider has mentioned on page 5 of this thread and that's unacceptable, no company like that should be supported in any shape or form.

    Just like them having been discovered of LOWERING gacha rates (to as low as 0.5%) on people spending their money on gacha boxes after the sale has begun is also extremely unacceptable as stated in the first article of the thread.

    I can't even look at Nexon as a game company anymore, more like a criminal organization.

    I wasn't trying to defend Nexon. I was just correcting some wrong info.

    It isn't "wrong info" that this 'Robert' person MAY be a Nexon employee because you can't prove that he isn't a Nexon employee either.

    Just because you THINK he isn't a Nexon employee doesn't just automatically make that a fact and make everyone else "wrong" for thinking otherwise. Because you really don't know if he is or isn't anyway so how can you tell everyone else they're wrong about something that you aren't even 100% sure of yourself?

    I could be a Nexon employee myself (but I'm not) and you wouldn't know, you could have friends that are actually Nexon employees on regular accounts and you wouldn't know. Just because you don't THINK that's possible doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. Some of us actually do know that game company employees actually do have regular game and forum accounts. That's right, Nexon employees do play the game too and they don't have to use a Nexon employee account to post on forums, there is no rule that says they have to do that and there would be no reliable way of enforcing something like that either, to try and make sure that Nexon employees always use the forums with their employee account. There was actually a scandal about that I think with EA games where they were found to be posting on their forums with regular forum accounts to try and make players feel a certain way about their games, maybe boost ratings or something like that so yeah, it does happen. And with a company like Nexon with so much corruption and other criminal activity that is going on I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.

    Try to respect other's opinions, don't try and force your own opinion upon everyone else and say everyone is wrong and that it's "wrong info" when that's just your opinion that 'Robert' isn't a Nexon employee, others here obviously think he is which is their opinion as well but don't try and say your opinion is fact and theirs isn't and is "wrong info" as you claim because he very well could be a Nexon employee.

    And he's the one (and the only one) here that's trying to defend Nexon and all of these things they've done, I wasn't saying you were defending Nexon but that alone is a reason some are suspicious and think he may be a Nexon employee.

    But that's all beside the point of the thread, please don't give those trying to start flame wars any more attention.

    Right? Why does he defend nexon? He should be outraged kr and na are betraying us.not protecting them.likely get getting some benefit. Can't be trusted
    Deprived
  • SomeguywashereSomeguywashere
    Vindictus Rep: 1,205
    Posts: 75
    Member


    Soon EU Will not be a great market for nexon. Than the US WILL follow their lead which means nexon will finally become honest or die
    Deprived
  • DragonRiderDragonRider
    Vindictus Rep: 2,600
    Posts: 443
    Member


    Soon EU Will not be a great market for nexon. Than the US WILL follow their lead which means nexon will finally become honest or die

    I love this. Been waiting for it a long time. USA's turn soon i hope.
    Deprived
  • RowboCopRowboCop
    Vindictus Rep: 520
    Posts: 12
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    Deprived wrote: »
    RowboCop wrote: »
    Deprived wrote: »
    RowboCop wrote: »
    Deprived wrote: »
    LadyFaye wrote: »
    Arent there bigger problems in YOUR world? Dont even think of trying to change peoples minds on some Forums (it doesnt really work).
    Oh and btw thats how Asian F2P Titles work, so... just get over it? ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

    I cringe reading such comments from a few ppl here like this one.

    You should remember that to discuss something is never wrong or pointless.
    Only brainless ppl accept everything as it is without question themselves/the others or just accepting blindly everything they get in general.

    No, it's not "how things works so just get over it".
    History, if u ever studied some, teach that a lot of changes (for the better in most cases and the worse in some cases)
    are 'due' to groups of ppl who didn't just "just get over it? ¯\_(ツ)_/" and managed within time to bring improvements in any aspect of the life.

    So the topic is quite rightfully discussed, and interesting.
    The only bad side is that most of this thread is turning into a personal debate between 2 ppl who dislike each other and nobody care.



    p.s. Robert is not a Nexon employer.

    Well said, I couldn't have said it better myself and I'm glad more intelligent individuals like yourself realize the importance of discussing these matters and the attention it's getting is well deserved.

    But please try not to give attention to those trying to derail the entire thread and turn this into a flame war rather than an important discussion on this very serious matter, like what this "robert" character is trying to do.

    And neither you nor I can say with 100% certainty that he isn't actually a Nexon employee but at the same time some have made some valid points (on top of the fact that he is THE ONLY ONE here defending Nexon's actions) as to why they think he may in fact be a Nexon employee on an alternate non-nexon employee account.

    Regardless I think we can all agree that he doesn't deserve the extra attention.

    Thanks for sharing that additional article DragonRider, your post and the article speaks for itself. After reading that, seeing how they have family members, the previous chairman CEO himself being charged with corruption and all these other criminal charges (and he likely still has other family members in the company still), not to mention all the other criminal activity going on within the company I'm actually disgusted with myself for having spent all the time I have playing one of their games.

    That guy's just a director. The CEO of Nexon is actually an American from San Francisco. I'm not talking about the regional subsidiaries like Nexon KR and Nexon NA, I'm talking about THE Nexon that oversees all the regional subsidiaries. It doesn't say so in this article, but if you google him, you'll find he's American and grew up in San Francisco.

    https://www.gamesindustry.biz/articles/2014-10-06-nexon-we-need-to-focus-on-heart-first-and-money-second

    Whether he's CEO or 'director' it makes no difference because the point still remains - there is a lot of corruption and criminal activity going on at Nexon like what DragonRider has mentioned on page 5 of this thread and that's unacceptable, no company like that should be supported in any shape or form.

    Just like them having been discovered of LOWERING gacha rates (to as low as 0.5%) on people spending their money on gacha boxes after the sale has begun is also extremely unacceptable as stated in the first article of the thread.

    I can't even look at Nexon as a game company anymore, more like a criminal organization.

    I wasn't trying to defend Nexon. I was just correcting some wrong info.

    It isn't "wrong info" that this 'Robert' person MAY be a Nexon employee because you can't prove that he isn't a Nexon employee either.

    Just because you THINK he isn't a Nexon employee doesn't just automatically make that a fact and make everyone else "wrong" for thinking otherwise. Because you really don't know if he is or isn't anyway so how can you tell everyone else they're wrong about something that you aren't even 100% sure of yourself?

    I could be a Nexon employee myself (but I'm not) and you wouldn't know, you could have friends that are actually Nexon employees on regular accounts and you wouldn't know. Just because you don't THINK that's possible doesn't mean everyone else is wrong. Some of us actually do know that game company employees actually do have regular game and forum accounts. That's right, Nexon employees do play the game too and they don't have to use a Nexon employee account to post on forums, there is no rule that says they have to do that and there would be no reliable way of enforcing something like that either, to try and make sure that Nexon employees always use the forums with their employee account. There was actually a scandal about that I think with EA games where they were found to be posting on their forums with regular forum accounts to try and make players feel a certain way about their games, maybe boost ratings or something like that so yeah, it does happen. And with a company like Nexon with so much corruption and other criminal activity that is going on I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest.

    Try to respect other's opinions, don't try and force your own opinion upon everyone else and say everyone is wrong and that it's "wrong info" when that's just your opinion that 'Robert' isn't a Nexon employee, others here obviously think he is which is their opinion as well but don't try and say your opinion is fact and theirs isn't and is "wrong info" as you claim because he very well could be a Nexon employee.

    And he's the one (and the only one) here that's trying to defend Nexon and all of these things they've done, I wasn't saying you were defending Nexon but that alone is a reason some are suspicious and think he may be a Nexon employee.

    But that's all beside the point of the thread, please don't give those trying to start flame wars any more attention.

    WTF is wrong with you? When did I talk about Robert? When I said I was correcting some wrong info, I was talking about the guy you incorrectly referred to as CEO.

    Try reading before replying with a wall of text next time, lol.
  • RhapsodyOfFireRhapsodyOfFire
    Vindictus Rep: 5,275
    Posts: 625
    Member


    Soon EU Will not be a great market for nexon. Than the US WILL follow their lead which means nexon will finally become honest or die

    Finally EU authorities noticed what gambling can cause...addiction...
    Deprived
  • DeprivedDeprived
    Vindictus Rep: 990
    Posts: 68
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    RowboCop wrote: »

    WTF is wrong with you? When did I talk about Robert? When I said I was correcting some wrong info, I was talking about the guy you incorrectly referred to as CEO.

    Calm down, I misquoted and got you and DancingStar's posts mixed up and I've edited my previous post to reflect that.

    Humans do make mistakes you know that right?

    But like I said, it doesn't matter whether the guy was CEO or director, those are both high ranking positions of power to be holding within the company and he's being charged with corruption and other charges with some pretty damning evidence against him. That guy was caught at least but there is still lots of criminal activity going on within Nexon as DragonRider stated and has given examples of and likely by that ex-director's family members that are still in the company as well.

    That's the important issue, who cares whether it was CEO or director, you're nitpicking insignificant details and keep bringing that up like it's really that important and missing the bigger picture entirely - he is a Nexon employee and was charged with corruption and other criminal charges, that shouldn't be happening period in a game company that people are supposed to be able to trust but we're finding out this is the worst company to trust, especially not with your money.
  • RowboCopRowboCop
    Vindictus Rep: 520
    Posts: 12
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    Deprived wrote: »
    RowboCop wrote: »

    WTF is wrong with you? When did I talk about Robert? When I said I was correcting some wrong info, I was talking about the guy you incorrectly referred to as CEO.

    Calm down, I misquoted and got you and DancingStar's posts mixed up and I've edited my previous post to reflect that.

    Humans do make mistakes you know that right?

    But like I said, it doesn't matter whether the guy was CEO or director, those are both high ranking positions of power to be holding within the company and he's being charged with corruption and other charges with some pretty damning evidence against him. That guy was caught at least but there is still lots of criminal activity going on within Nexon as DragonRider stated and has given examples of and likely by that ex-director's family members that are still in the company as well.

    That's the important issue, who cares whether it was CEO or director, you're nitpicking insignificant details and keep bringing that up like it's really that important and missing the bigger picture entirely - he is a Nexon employee and was charged with corruption and other criminal charges, that shouldn't be happening period in a game company that people are supposed to be able to trust but we're finding out this is the worst company to trust, especially not with your money.

    LMAO, you're the one who went postal on me. You should be the one to calm down. My response to you is perfectly reasonable when somebody (you) writes a wall of text that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You deleted your post AFTER my reply when you realize you were wrong, and yet you comment on my reply like I was somehow wrong in my reaction.

    There's something seriously wrong with your perception of things. All I did was correct you on getting the CEO wrong. I didn't make a big fuss, just a simple correction and didn't comment on the rest of your post nor did I try to defend Nexon. You say it's not important, yet YOU are the one who keeps bringing it up. YOU are the one who keeps talking about it now like it's something you can't let go of.
  • Daggerpaw12Daggerpaw12
    Vindictus Rep: 740
    Posts: 23
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    Deprived wrote: »
    So there you have it, for you people really trying to defend Nexon with these gachas and supposedly "random" events thinking they aren't rigged.

    Well guess what? They are rigged.

    "In promoting the puzzle event, Nexon informed users that the 16 pieces would be provided at random. In reality, however, the odds of obtaining some of the pieces was as low as 0.5 percent. By depriving users of this information, the FTC said the gamemaker led ordinary users to believe that the odds of getting each puzzle piece would be equal. "

    Source: http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180402000884

    This means that these supposedly "random" boxes, cubes, dice, whatever event they're claiming things are random in really have it setup where chances to get certain items are ridiculously low, the odds aren't what Nexon says they are and players are being deceived.

    So when players are told "there is a 5% chance to get X item" from that $1 or $5 gachaphon box you don't even know if that's really the true rate or if you're being lied to.

    When you do these "random" events no, it isn't really random, the odds of getting the better items are much lower than other items. That dice you see being rolled in-game isn't what's really going on in the system behind the scenes, it's actually set up so the number you get will make it so your chances are higher to get the junk items and almost never get the good items.

    Nothing like greedy lying developers using deceptive tactics like this just to steal more money from players. Now you understand why people say Nexon is a greedy moneyhungry game company.

    And don't try to say "oh well that's a different game, it doesn't say Vindictus" - please don't be this stupid, Vindictus is a game run by Nexon too, you don't think they're going to be following the same deceptive practices with their other games to try and steal as much money as possible from players? If lying to players about gachaphon rates is working with one game and they're stealing all this money from players of course they're going to do it with their other games like Vindictus.

    So yeah, this has probably been going on for years with Vindictus gachas and "random" events and now they've finally been exposed and sued for deceiving players.

    Good job FTC and thank you DragonRider for sharing this.

    I do agree with the premise of the lawsuit. Nexon uses fanfare like prize wheels and reward pool visualizations during gacha gambling in order to make you want to try your luck again by showing you tempting items that you were just so close to getting, but in reality all of the fanfare is likely to be completely disconnected from actual % odds. I remember the last time I bought vindi gachas about 3 years ago, and level 80 +10 weapons showed up somewhere in the prize wheel about 1/2 of the time, even multiple times in the same wheel, but I never came close to landing them. They also make you believe you have a choice when selecting different rewards on a prize wheel in some games, but in reality, the server fetches the items after you click (or at least I suspect so due to lag timing), which becomes an issue when you keep seeing 2-3 rare items on each prize wheel and never getting them.

    They are using manipulative tactics by intentionally feeding blatantly false information to their consumers to get them to gamble more, so I can see where legal issues might arise, I'm no expert on the subject by any means, though.
    Deprived
  • DeprivedDeprived
    Vindictus Rep: 990
    Posts: 68
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    RowboCop wrote: »
    LMAO, you're the one who went postal on me. You should be the one to calm down. My response to you is perfectly reasonable when somebody (you) writes a wall of text that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You deleted your post AFTER my reply when you realize you were wrong, and yet you comment on my reply like I was somehow wrong in my reaction.

    There's something seriously wrong with your perception of things. All I did was correct you on getting the CEO wrong. I didn't make a big fuss, just a simple correction and didn't comment on the rest of your post nor did I try to defend Nexon. You say it's not important, yet YOU are the one who keeps bringing it up. YOU are the one who keeps talking about it now like it's something you can't let go of.

    Wrong.

    You're a liar.

    You're the one that keeps bringing up this irrelevant "oh he is the director not CEO" thing even after I responded to it the first time.

    You: Oh he's the director not the CEO, I need to nitpick minor irrelevant details and point out that I corrected someone.
    Me: Ok, whether he's CEO or director, the point still remains it's still a high level Nexon employee involved in corruption and other criminal activity within the company which is a serious problem, you're nitpicking.
    You: Oh I just need to nitpick and point out that you said his job title wrong when it doesn't even matter so I can look smart and be extra annoying! But I didn't just bring it up again believe me! I'm just correcting wrong info. But trust me guys, I didn't just bring it up again.

    So no, it's YOU who keeps bringing up this irrelevant detail about the guy's job title because you're that desperate to try and make people think you're smart for correcting someone on a person's job title when it's beside the point I was making. I responded to the CEO vs Director thing from you once then you brought it up AGAIN so it's you who can't let go of that, not me, you must be confused. Whether it's "CEO" or "Director", they are both Nexon employees involved in criminal activity and is not okay, my point still remains the same, how hard is it to understand that?

    And no one ever said you're defending Nexon...I think it's you who has something wrong with your "perception" of "things" lol

    That and reading comprehension seems to be an issue for you.

    Like I said, calm down. You're literally trying to start an argument and trying way too hard to make this into some flame war or personal insults competition, maybe it's because your points are so weak you need to resort to insults? Please grow up and stop acting like a child.

    And just because your attention span is too short to read through a post that's longer than a few sentences that is directed to you doesn't mean the person is "going postal" as you call it. Words don't have emotions, people do, think about that. It's just that you're way too sensitive and get offended way too easily to be participating in any kind of intelligent discussion or conversation with people.

    I'm man enough to admit that I made a mistake and replied to the wrong person, I edited my previous post out of respect and this guy "RowboCop" is over here having an orgasm over it. You have such little respect for yourself as a human being that you can't even acknowledge someone admitting their mistake and making things right. Instead you spit in their face?

    What is this world coming to.

    You truly are a despicable human being.
  • RowboCopRowboCop
    Vindictus Rep: 520
    Posts: 12
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    Deprived wrote: »
    RowboCop wrote: »
    LMAO, you're the one who went postal on me. You should be the one to calm down. My response to you is perfectly reasonable when somebody (you) writes a wall of text that has nothing to do with what I was talking about. You deleted your post AFTER my reply when you realize you were wrong, and yet you comment on my reply like I was somehow wrong in my reaction.

    There's something seriously wrong with your perception of things. All I did was correct you on getting the CEO wrong. I didn't make a big fuss, just a simple correction and didn't comment on the rest of your post nor did I try to defend Nexon. You say it's not important, yet YOU are the one who keeps bringing it up. YOU are the one who keeps talking about it now like it's something you can't let go of.

    Wrong.

    You're a liar.

    You're the one that keeps bringing up this irrelevant "oh he is the director not CEO" thing even after I responded to it the first time.

    You: Oh he's the director not the CEO, I need to nitpick minor irrelevant details and point out that I corrected someone.
    Me: Ok, whether he's CEO or director, the point still remains it's still a high level Nexon employee involved in corruption and other criminal activity within the company which is a serious problem, you're nitpicking.
    You: Oh I just need to nitpick and point out that you said his job title wrong when it doesn't even matter so I can look smart and be extra annoying! But I didn't just bring it up again believe me! I'm just correcting wrong info. But trust me guys, I didn't just bring it up again.

    So no, it's YOU who keeps bringing up this irrelevant detail about the guy's job title because you're that desperate to try and make people think you're smart for correcting someone on a person's job title when it's beside the point I was making. I responded to the CEO vs Director thing from you once then you brought it up AGAIN so it's you who can't let go of that, not me, you must be confused. Whether it's "CEO" or "Director", they are both Nexon employees involved in criminal activity and is not okay, my point still remains the same, how hard is it to understand that?

    And no one ever said you're defending Nexon...I think it's you who has something wrong with your "perception" of "things" lol

    That and reading comprehension seems to be an issue for you.

    Like I said, calm down. You're literally trying to start an argument and trying way too hard to make this into some flame war or personal insults competition, maybe it's because your points are so weak you need to resort to insults? Please grow up and stop acting like a child.

    And just because your attention span is too short to read through a post that's longer than a few sentences that is directed to you doesn't mean the person is "going postal" as you call it. Words don't have emotions, people do, think about that. It's just that you're way too sensitive and get offended way too easily to be participating in any kind of intelligent discussion or conversation with people.

    I'm man enough to admit that I made a mistake and replied to the wrong person, I edited my previous post out of respect and this guy "RowboCop" is over here having an orgasm over it. You have such little respect for yourself as a human being that you can't even acknowledge someone admitting their mistake and making things right. Instead you spit in their face?

    What is this world coming to.

    You truly are a despicable human being.

    You described yourself perfectly. :)

    How did I lie? I already said that I corrected you on your comment on the CEO. You were wrong and that should be the end of it. But you kept talking about it like your life depends on it. I was only responding to your crazy comments after that. You need to seek help.

    Prior to the above quote, I made 3 posts to you :

    1) I pointed out the guy you referred to was not CEO

    2) I tried to reassure you I wasn't trying to defend Nexon. This is my entire post : "I wasn't trying to defend Nexon. I was just correcting some wrong info. "

    3) I told you I said nothing about Robert (when you wrote a wall of text about how Robert can be an employee and accuse me of being disrespectful of others opinions - which you have since deleted AFTER my reply). This is my entire post/reply : "WTF is wrong with you? When did I talk about Robert? When I said I was correcting some wrong info, I was talking about the guy you incorrectly referred to as CEO".

    And based on that, you conclude I'm a despicable human being. LMAO. And you tell me to calm down ...

    Looks like you're the liar. :)
  • DeprivedDeprived
    Vindictus Rep: 990
    Posts: 68
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    noctred wrote: »
    1. Deprived is either a drooling **** or a blatant troll. Probably both.

    2. Randomness and probability are not one and the same. A random event may have a uniform or non-uniform probability distribution. A random event does not require uniform distribution to be random. It is random by virtue of its outcome being unpredictable. The probability of each outcome has no bearing on the randomness of the event. If this makes your brain hurt, watch a 'probability for dummies' video on youtube or something.

    Everyone knows Nexon is a scummy, greedy company. However, there isn't a single video game publisher on the planet (that I'm aware of) which releases lootboxes with uniform distribution. Nexon, NCsoft, EA, Blizzard, whatever - all of their lootboxes are non-uniform and weighted heavily against you, with the probability of a given item having an inverse relationship with its rarity. This is neither new nor enlightening - it's something that I would hope anybody who buys lootboxes in any game is already aware of.

    That said, they are all still, technically, random.

    Since you choose to start your post with nothing but insults I'm already not going to take you seriously, insults only make your points that much weaker if you have any, at all. If you're that immature that you don't even have the capacity to discuss something without throwing insults you're not to be taken seriously.

    And you obviously haven't read the article this thread is about either so that's another reason not to take you seriously.

    This thread is specifically about gacha boxes that Nexon KR were selling that they claimed to be "random", they did not state the rates of any of the obtainable items from this gacha, not even the rare items and it was also found that they LOWERED the gacha rates to as low as 0.5%.

    So Nexon claimed those gachas were just "random", no rate information was provided. Well here is the definition of the word random.

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/random

    -Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

    If you roll a dice piece or flip a coin, there is an equal probability of that coin landing on either side, there is an equal probability of that dice piece landing on any of those six sides, it's just that simple. This has nothing to do with the gacha boxes that have their rates altered because obviously that isn't really random - but Nexon KR deceived players and told them these gacha boxes WERE random and that's it, no rate information was provided.

    So Nexon KR misled players stating the gacha boxes were simply "random" when they weren't - misled players and had them spending crazy amounts of money trying to get items that they didn't even know Nexon had lowered rates to 1.5 and 0.5% - I'm never even heard of any gacha box that people are actually spending real life money on with rates that low lol You mind as well not even buy gacha boxes with Nexon lowering rates to that amount just whenever they feel like it and this is just another reason why Nexon has a serious credibility issue as I've mentioned - if they're lowering gacha rates under whatever circumstances they see fit over in KR where they're already making the most amount of money, they can do the same thing here and it's likely they are and have been doing just that, their long history of lying to players on every single "random" event they've had only increases that likelihood.

    All I see you saying is "well they should've known that Nexon is going to make the rates lower on certain items". Wrong, you have hundreds and thousands of people that are just casual players that are working every day, they barely use the game forums and don't have the same grasp of how gacha items really work (or are supposed to but Nexon went and lowered the rates after the sale began, to scam players), the way that gacha boxes are usually set up so the rarer items have lower rates, it's a rare item after all right?

    But this case was different, Nexon simply said the gacha box was "random" and that's it. So these normal every day people are going to take them AT THEIR WORD, there is no "oh they're supposed to know that certain items are harder to get", "oh that's just how it is, they're supposed to know that already" and players are just supposed to GUESS the rates Nexon REALLY set on the gacha items, that's not how it works. You say the gacha box is JUST RANDOM then that's exactly what it better be, there had better be an equal probability or equal chance at obtaining those items that people are spending their hard earned money on, simple as that. And this is where Nexon slipped up, they didn't say what any of the rates were so the FTC came after them AND the FTC discovered they LOWERED the supposed "random" chance to 0.5%??? So they said "hey guys! the chance is just random!" but really went and lowered the rate of certain items to 0.5% which is just laughable to set the rate of an item that low that people are spending money trying to get.

    Lastly, this isn't about "NCsoft", "EA" or any of these other game companies you're throwing into this, this is about Nexon. And I think it's important to point out that this is about something that happened over at Nexon KR (Korea) where they're required to provide rate information on their gacha boxes. Here at Nexon NA (America) they aren't required to do this so they can lie, mislead and deceive players about gacha box rates all they want because no one is regulating them here, they can actually lower gacha box rates to ridiculously low amounts like how they lowered gacha rates to 0.5% in KR and get away with it. Quit pointing fingers at other game companies like they have the exact same systems, they run things exactly the same and their "loot boxes" as you call it work the same because they don't. That's irrelevant. And just because other people are doing something DOES NOT make it right or okay.

    You're basically saying "oh hey look! these other people got away with breaking the law so it's okay for these people to do it too!", "all these other people jumped off of bridges to their deaths so it's okay for you to do it too!". You need to stop having that sheep mentality, speak up against and stand up for what's right, not "oh, well other people do it so I should too, right or wrong", "other people are okay with being mistreated by Nexon so you should be okay with it too".

    If we look back at history, change only began to happen when people got together and stood up against whatever it is that so many knew was wrong. Change doesn't happen by having sheep mentality and saying "oh, well other people are okay with being mistreated, kicked and stepped on and having their gambling addictions exploited and taken advantage of so you should be okay with that too and just deal with it" like what Nexon is doing to players.

    It's crazy how people like this will try to find any way at all to defend what Nexon has done, attempting to confuse people, throwing in other game companies and saying "oh no it's okay to say something is random period then turn around and make it near impossible to get whatever item the game company chooses, yeah that's fine!". No, saying a paid for gacha box is simply "random" and nothing else AND THEN lowering the gacha rates to 1.5% and 0.5% after the sale begins IS NOT okay, no matter how you try and twist it.

    I'm just glad most of you are actually pretty level headed intelligent individuals though and realize how simple and obvious this is.
  • noctrednoctred
    Vindictus Rep: 2,875
    Posts: 148
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    Deprived wrote: »
    Well here is the definition of the word random.

    http://www.dictionary.com/browse/random

    -Statistics. of or characterizing a process of selection in which each item of a set has an equal probability of being chosen.

    If you roll a dice piece or flip a coin, there is an equal probability of that coin landing on either side, there is an equal probability of that dice piece landing on any of those six sides, it's just that simple.

    Please take a math class instead of posting the same wall of text repeatedly and relying on a narrow definition of a broad subject. It'll serve you better in the long run. I promise.

    In most real world scenarios (read: not learning environment material like coin flips and dice tosses), non-uniform distributions are far more likely and uniform distributions are, in a relative sense, fairly rare.

    Stay in school.


    Deprived wrote: »
    You're basically saying "oh hey look! these other people got away with breaking the law so it's okay for these people to do it too!", "all these other people jumped off of bridges to their deaths so it's okay for you to do it too!". You need to stop having that sheep mentality, speak up against and stand up for what's right, not "oh, well other people do it so I should too, right or wrong", "other people are okay with being mistreated by Nexon so you should be okay with it too".

    Yeah. No.

    What I'm basically saying is that you, as a consumer, should be aware of what you're buying. If you don't realize that lootboxes, by design, are non-uniform in nature, then your lack of responsible consumerism is as much at fault as the company that's trying to squeeze money out of you.

    Maybe you can read about being a smart consumer while you're reading about real world probability.
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
    Vindictus Rep: 8,530
    Posts: 1,320
    Member
    Let's just be clear on what the issue is instead of arguing semantics. Nexon presented the boxes as though all items had equal chance and there was no weighting present. That was not the case, and as probabilities varied by item, they simply should have posted the odds as they had been doing for the past two years or so. It seems that they were up to something out of sorts by suddenly not publishing rates anymore in their games.

    I do know this: I would not trust that whatever pseudo random generator Nexon uses isn't artificially altered to produce rates of lesser prizes than statistics would suggest. As pointed out with the "old" +10-15 boxes that we've received for the past two events, the number of rolls higher than +10 have been next to non-existent. What we see with Nexon's gotcha boxes is out of sorts, and as many times as they've been caught now with issues from embezzlement to false advertising to abandoning a game without saying a word to the players beforehand I wouldn't give them another penny.

    I have no doubt that with Maple Story 2 about to launch that the company will continue to stay afloat. With the new laws people in the east and west certainly aren't going to accept RNG boxes when people in the EU as a whole will likely be able to direct purchase all cash shop items. The practices will change in the end no matter what, but I'm completely done supporting Nexon in any way, and have been for a while. I'll continue enjoying their delicious combat until it's time to move on, though.
    DeprivedPixelPantsu
  • DeprivedDeprived
    Vindictus Rep: 990
    Posts: 68
    Member
    Deprived wrote: »
    So there you have it, for you people really trying to defend Nexon with these gachas and supposedly "random" events thinking they aren't rigged.

    Well guess what? They are rigged.

    "In promoting the puzzle event, Nexon informed users that the 16 pieces would be provided at random. In reality, however, the odds of obtaining some of the pieces was as low as 0.5 percent. By depriving users of this information, the FTC said the gamemaker led ordinary users to believe that the odds of getting each puzzle piece would be equal. "

    Source: http://www.koreaherald.com/view.php?ud=20180402000884

    This means that these supposedly "random" boxes, cubes, dice, whatever event they're claiming things are random in really have it setup where chances to get certain items are ridiculously low, the odds aren't what Nexon says they are and players are being deceived.

    So when players are told "there is a 5% chance to get X item" from that $1 or $5 gachaphon box you don't even know if that's really the true rate or if you're being lied to.

    When you do these "random" events no, it isn't really random, the odds of getting the better items are much lower than other items. That dice you see being rolled in-game isn't what's really going on in the system behind the scenes, it's actually set up so the number you get will make it so your chances are higher to get the junk items and almost never get the good items.

    Nothing like greedy lying developers using deceptive tactics like this just to steal more money from players. Now you understand why people say Nexon is a greedy moneyhungry game company.

    And don't try to say "oh well that's a different game, it doesn't say Vindictus" - please don't be this stupid, Vindictus is a game run by Nexon too, you don't think they're going to be following the same deceptive practices with their other games to try and steal as much money as possible from players? If lying to players about gachaphon rates is working with one game and they're stealing all this money from players of course they're going to do it with their other games like Vindictus.

    So yeah, this has probably been going on for years with Vindictus gachas and "random" events and now they've finally been exposed and sued for deceiving players.

    Good job FTC and thank you DragonRider for sharing this.

    I do agree with the premise of the lawsuit. Nexon uses fanfare like prize wheels and reward pool visualizations during gacha gambling in order to make you want to try your luck again by showing you tempting items that you were just so close to getting, but in reality all of the fanfare is likely to be completely disconnected from actual % odds. I remember the last time I bought vindi gachas about 3 years ago, and level 80 +10 weapons showed up somewhere in the prize wheel about 1/2 of the time, even multiple times in the same wheel, but I never came close to landing them. They also make you believe you have a choice when selecting different rewards on a prize wheel in some games, but in reality, the server fetches the items after you click (or at least I suspect so due to lag timing), which becomes an issue when you keep seeing 2-3 rare items on each prize wheel and never getting them.

    They are using manipulative tactics by intentionally feeding blatantly false information to their consumers to get them to gamble more, so I can see where legal issues might arise, I'm no expert on the subject by any means, though.

    This.
    Let's just be clear on what the issue is instead of arguing semantics. Nexon presented the boxes as though all items had equal chance and there was no weighting present. That was not the case, and as probabilities varied by item, they simply should have posted the odds as they had been doing for the past two years or so. It seems that they were up to something out of sorts by suddenly not publishing rates anymore in their games.

    I do know this: I would not trust that whatever pseudo random generator Nexon uses isn't artificially altered to produce rates of lesser prizes than statistics would suggest. As pointed out with the "old" +10-15 boxes that we've received for the past two events, the number of rolls higher than +10 have been next to non-existent. What we see with Nexon's gotcha boxes is out of sorts, and as many times as they've been caught now with issues from embezzlement to false advertising to abandoning a game without saying a word to the players beforehand I wouldn't give them another penny.

    I have no doubt that with Maple Story 2 about to launch that the company will continue to stay afloat. With the new laws people in the east and west certainly aren't going to accept RNG boxes when people in the EU as a whole will likely be able to direct purchase all cash shop items. The practices will change in the end no matter what, but I'm completely done supporting Nexon in any way, and have been for a while. I'll continue enjoying their delicious combat until it's time to move on, though.

    And this.

    Well said Prototype, great points you've made and thanks for sharing your own experiences DaggerPaw12, I know exactly what you're talking about.
  • SomeguywashereSomeguywashere
    Vindictus Rep: 1,205
    Posts: 75
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    Let's get back to the topic. Not aruge with r each other and let this thing die.


    Kr nexon lied to us all and made things seemed better than what it was. If the real odds were fair why lie?


    4:07

    Regardless of how good or bad these liitboxed are... They exist. And evertliotbox will die soon.. soon nexon might be dropping vindie to another company..probably black desert since they were created with some vindictus developers... At wost. At best nexon becomes good.... But let's remember all the games they've rid of...

    Audition
    Cratfrace
    Dirtybomv
    Dragon nest
    Ghost in shell
    Dungeon fighter
    Law breakers..




    If the Belgium's ban hits all of EU than na it's over for us..
    DeprivedPrototypemindPixelPantsu
  • SomeguywashereSomeguywashere
    Vindictus Rep: 1,205
    Posts: 75
    Member
    edited April 26, 2018
    We lost so many games because they no longer gave good profits... Saling vindictus will more than likely happen.. most likely kakoe)Pearl abyss who owns black desert because they were created


    By some vindictus devs


    My hope is if nexon can't recover, give black desert our pve and character content with towns to stay along and not shutdoen
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
    Vindictus Rep: 8,530
    Posts: 1,320
    Member
    I doubt Nexon will get rid of it. Devcat is their own in house company, so I doubt they'd push that to Kakao.
    DaitangoNecromorph
  • BastilazBastilaz
    Vindictus Rep: 620
    Posts: 2
    Member
    Hi guys (I am new to forum postings),


    My 2-cents over the topic of RANDOM probability.
    By definition RANDOM means equal chance, in context of Vindictus 4% random box:

    "4% chance of one of the following 11 items"
    That would mean that each item would have an equal probability of 0.3636%.
    ex: Desert Princess Iset = 0.3636%
    White Lotus = 0.3636%

    However if Nexon is lying, and the rarer Desert Princess Iset have a chance of only 0.1%, that would be how they are getting sued.

    Cheers and a nice day.



This discussion has been closed.