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One of the big changes I noticed after starting s2 was that you go back in time in order to try and change fate. You go to Malina so you are not interfering with everyone in Colhen, trying to change the fate of Tieve and Keaghan. At least a few times I've had NPC's mention Tieve directly, and not have it be this "why does that name sound familiar" dialogue. It seems like in Rise when you start s2 she hasn't become Morrighan yet. Correct me if I'm wrong but that's what I've interpreted so far.
all my characters are lv 90 +pain so I have to make a new character. On the bright side, this does give me a chance to check out all the new dialogue they added/change. I'm reading all of it, so it will take me some time to get to season 2. Of course if someone had a video of it, I would be grateful for your generosity.
I played from the 4th S1 episode to S3, and I can summerize the transition of s1 to s2 like this "After season 1, a mysterious voice, assumed to be the voice of Cichol tells the player that they know only half the story, and that they need to see the rest. The voice also says that despite the change in choices, destiny will not change, and Tieve and Keaghan will end up exactly in the same place. So time reverts back to shortly after the Decisive Battle where the Rookie defeats the Gnoll Chieftain, and the voice tells the player to go to Malina. So the Rookie has the opportunity to avoid interfering with Tieve and Keaghan and hope they won't again end up as Morrighan and Cichol, but like the voice said in the beginning of S2, destiny will not change, and basically it's to see what else needed to be seen."
Currently, I'm checking the s3 dialogue which for the most part is the same, but for the Ancient Glas episode there are changes in dialogue, the Muir and Regina part is pretty much the same, the Braha part retains the same things too, but I'm completing it with more information too. The S1 and S2 story is relatively the same too, the major change is with the Pact Story (now you face the Blood Lord and Nyle explains to you the vampire story, a shame I had already done the Ainle part with my fiona and didn't get much of it) and with quests getting streamlined, so like, you don't have to face Lionotus twice, or forge the cadet badge, or find the Ergs for Kean in Fobellow Praire. S2 has some more introspective (S3 as well) regarding certain events, like when Ellis goes to die again, or character thinks to him/herself how nothing is changing, or when Kean asks us for the Erg and we can't go to Fobellow, we tell him we already know the royal army base like the back of our hands (because we were the before but not really) and know where they keep the spoils of war. On the larger scale it's the same, it's just better explained and better story telling. I'll be sure to update my summary as well once I get all caught up and correct everything I have to correct, furthermore, with the help of LynnCUBE I've got some translations for what happens in the Dullahan episode, but it's a very streamline thing.
Why does everyone think that Keaghan is Cichol's vessel? Cichol didn't exist before Keaghan; he's just Keaghan in god form. If Cichol was someone else, he wouldn't have talked to Tieve and wanted to save her AFTER he became a god; only Keaghan would do that, so Cichol isn't a different entity.
And for those of you who think the blue crystal held an old god... No, the blue crystal was just concentrated divine power left over from Cromm, and wasn't Cromm or any other deity - just power.
What I want to know is what in the world the Destiny Stone thing was about. Alysse was a living, breathing human - so why would she be referred to as a stone? It's more likely she's a god vessel.
what makes you think Cichol didn't exist before Keaghan? I'm guessing there are plenty of possibilities there, there could be many "Cichols" in the past. Or perhaps it's like a reincarnation type thing, where when Cichol died/went to sleep/whatever happened to him all the memories of the past lives are gone or dormant and only what happened recently is remembered when he took his new form in Keaghan.
Also I believe the destiny stone was one of those legends past down and mixed, muddled, mistranslated or changed throughout the years. So the legend of the destiny stone could have been one thing but as it traveled to different areas, changed to another through bad translations, assumptions, etc.
Cichol defiantly existed before, just like Morrighan. He is mentioned in the legends by some books of Season 3 (the ones regarding Lord Glas and Lugh that Seanna has read before).
Unlike what the Pontiff's Court tells everyone, Elchulus is NOT a fomor god, just a god of time with no affiliation, the chruch erases information about Cichol (the first time the royal army sees the statue of Cichol, Gilliam tries to call the fomors stupid, that they wouldn't recognize their own god's form, seeing as Elchulus is a dragon.).
The fomors in Season 1 are killing humans because they believe a similar prophecy of that of the humans (kill every human and god returns.) Keaghan is not Cichol's true vessel, Verafim had tampered with the blue crystal and the prophecy so that when he turned Keaghan into Cichol, he, Verafim, effectively stole god from the fomors.
This is not confirmed, but I believe that it's Lechaud that it's the true vessel for Cichol, also because right now, according to Muir and personal interpretation, Cichol is not yet complete (it's like he is part Cichol and part Keaghan in terms of personality).
It's hard to think of Season 3 as the same canon, though. S3 has different writers and it forced Rise, so isn't S3 a different timeline from S1?
I think we should label Timeline 1 to refer to pre-S3, pre-Rise S1/S2, and Timeline 2 to refer to Rise S1/S2 and S3. Because S1/S2 has context that makes it look as if Keaghan is the first Cichol (because Cichol was never mentioned in myth before S3), and it can lead into Mabi canon, while S3 destroys all of that.
Plus, Rise LITERALLY creates a new timeline with the player going back in time, so who's to say that they weren't transported into an already extant timeline? Heck, one could even theorize that there's a timeline where an alternate S2 hero got transported into a new timeline where they started S1. So with the devs' timeline excuse going on, who's to say that Timeline 1 didn't have a different history than Timeline 2? Or even that there's 3 or 4 timelines?
There is no evidence that Vindi is the same canon as Mabi, trying to force it to be the same canon is what creates inconsistencies with the story-telling. Maybe in the future it might all tie in with the Mabi universe, for now treat it as it's own separate canon. S3 did not force RISE, Cichol WAS mentioned in S1 through Shakarr.
All that RISE did change was the Pact story, anything besides that was just streamlined and explained in simpler ways (refer to an older post of mine in this thread.) The new timeline always happened at the end of Season 1, it's how S1 and S2 tie in together, even before RISE, the new cutscene just explains it better.
And even if it was something different back when S2 was playable at levels 30-ish onwards, it's not what it is now, so it's not productive to create confusion trying to figure out and mixing "what is" with the "what could've/should've been", (even though I believe that even back then the same "going back in time with different decisions to see if fate remains the same" thing, was going on, just poorly managed in terms of telling what happened).
The same thing for S3, how can it not be canon? It's literally what we're playing through. The writers might be different ones that wrote it during the KR development, but it's the same story with the same plot points, they may change the direction of the story slightly, but I figure it stays true to the originally planed, though, it's all speculation if the story changed with the writers or if it stayed the same.
S3 did not force RISE, Cichol WAS mentioned in S1 through Shakarr.
Only as part of the prophecy. It stated that Cichol would return, but I also remember it being stated that Cichol died. But if Cichol was really resurrected by the eating of the heart, which makes no sense as the blue crystal was a part of Cromm's power (not any other god's), he wouldn't have given a flying heck about Tieve - instead, CICHOL told Tieve not to forget who she truly is and promising to make her Tieve again, something that only KEAGHAN would say, so Cichol is not a separate being, Cichol is just Keaghan. Remember that it was said Tieve's soul was consumed by Morrighan, so Morrighan wouldn't give a flying heck about Keaghan; why, then would you think that Cichol would care about Tieve? He wouldn't, so Keaghan didn't get overtaken by a different soul - it's still just Keaghan.
Now, with that said, it's likely that Keaghan is just a fake Cichol. Keaghan heard the Fomorian prophecy from Shakarr, so he might have thought that he had become Cichol even though he's his own deity. It might even be that Verafim planned this, as he got Naveen to convince Keaghan of details that would make Keaghan think he'd become Cichol. Verafim's plan might be getting Keaghan to kill the real Cichol in order to take full control of the Fomors.
S3 did not force RISE, Cichol WAS mentioned in S1 through Shakarr.
Only as part of the prophecy. It stated that Cichol would return, but I also remember it being stated that Cichol died. But if Cichol was really resurrected by the eating of the heart, which makes no sense as the blue crystal was a part of Cromm's power (not any other god's), he wouldn't have given a flying heck about Tieve - instead, CICHOL told Tieve not to forget who she truly is and promising to make her Tieve again, something that only KEAGHAN would say, so Cichol is not a separate being, Cichol is just Keaghan. Remember that it was said Tieve's soul was consumed by Morrighan, so Morrighan wouldn't give a flying heck about Keaghan; why, then would you think that Cichol would care about Tieve? He wouldn't, so Keaghan didn't get overtaken by a different soul - it's still just Keaghan.
Now, with that said, it's likely that Keaghan is just a fake Cichol. Keaghan heard the Fomorian prophecy from Shakarr, so he might have thought that he had become Cichol even though he's his own deity. It might even be that Verafim planned this, as he got Naveen to convince Keaghan of details that would make Keaghan think he'd become Cichol. Verafim's plan might be getting Keaghan to kill the real Cichol in order to take full control of the Fomors.
Cichol wasn't dead, he, and the rest of the gods were asleep with Elchulus sealed, Verafim took advantage of Cichol needing a vessel and tampered with that so it would be a vessel of his choosing with the blue crystal (how it relates to Cromm is beyond me, but it relates to the process without a doubt.
Tieve is now lost because she is the true vessel for Morrighan, Keaghan on the other hand was made into Cichol, which is why he retains his love/obsession for Tieve, it's not that he is fake, just incomplete.
It's safe to assume that the gods need human vessels, Morrighan took Tieve, and Cichol took Keaghan (or rather was forced to, it is my speculation that he was meant to end up with Lechaud as a vessel, since the fomor equivalent of the brotherhood was protecting him.)
The vessels seem to be chosen by the gods themselves or are prophecised seeing as Macha decided on Ceara, and Tieve was tied to Morrighan even before the awakening of Elchulus.
Tieve is now lost because she is the true vessel for Morrighan, Keaghan on the other hand was made into Cichol, which is why he retains his love/obsession for Tieve, it's not that he is fake, just incomplete.
If Tieve was really lost, he would not have said, "Tieve, Morrighan will not have you. I will seal Elchelus and destroy this false paradise. Tieve, do not forget who you really are. Do not forget me. I will save you." He's a god at this point; I'm pretty sure he'd know whether or not Tieve would be outright destroyed - he suggests he can save her, which means she's still somewhere inside Morrighan; she's not lost.
Cichol: Wait for me. I will destroy this frozen, false paradise. I will become the seal myself and put Elchulus back to sleep. Until I completely seal him away, just until then, please wait for me.
Tieve: Such a pitiful, unfortunate man, you are…
This is a direct translation from the KR version. It's true we don't know if she is gone for good, though it is heavily implied, we haven't seen Morrighan since then so it's difficult to assess how she acts except from the one line she drops during the S1 finale. In the english version she only says "Keaghan. I'm so sorry."
(KR Version of S1 ending)
But in the KR version she speaks differently. In one she still seems like she actually cares, and the other it seems like she feels pity for Keaghan but way more distant, I'd say even with some disdain, bear in mind that while she was Tieve she loved Keaghan.
I've seen a few spoilers about the new Aes Sidhe episode that was released on KR. If you don't care about spoilers take a look seeing as they hold some pertinent information on the topic at hand.
After the battle against Aes Sidhe, Morrighan appears, she says that Aes was the gatekeeper to Erinn and that Fragarach is not yet awakened, so she orders the player to return as they are not ready to cross over. More importantly, she goes on about saying that Fate/Destiny is absolute, and that going against it is folly for both mortal and god alike.
This is slightly off-putting for Tieve to still be in there. Now, she might still be, deep deep down. But the prophecy (the true one from the S1 finale) stated that her soul would be consumed along with her body by Morrighan, and her actions also implicate that.
EDIT: Also worth mentioning that Keaghan was acting like a madman during the whole S1 finale, I mean, he listened to the god damned Lizardman that was trying to kill us, then he tried to kill us. The man-god-child is delusional and desperate, so it's not far fetched that he'd do all kinds of stuff to try to get Tieve back, even if she weren't there anymore.
I just want to point out that, in both Mabi and Vindi, Morrighan is a horrible, horrible person. I really, really wish Tieve's soul is still in there and someday just destroys Morrighan's. Even an evil Tieve is better than a good Morrighan...
Of course, it would be a real kick in the face if there was never a separate soul to begin with, if there was never a separate personality, if "Tieve" was really Morrighan playing a prank on everyone by faking innocence her entire life. Ultimate plot twist.
In Vindi we're not yet sure how she is, what her motivations are and the like. She only had one line in the Eng version and in Season 3 not much regarding her happened (other than being absent despite Erinn being descended.)
In Mabi she is a major thot after Gen 10 I think, maybe Vindi will keep that trace of hers, who knows.
in actual celtic mythos, from where vindi draws inspiration, lugh is the child of a fomor mother and what could be considered a god as his father, and adopted by manannan aka muir who is a god of the sea just like in game
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Currently, I'm checking the s3 dialogue which for the most part is the same, but for the Ancient Glas episode there are changes in dialogue, the Muir and Regina part is pretty much the same, the Braha part retains the same things too, but I'm completing it with more information too. The S1 and S2 story is relatively the same too, the major change is with the Pact Story (now you face the Blood Lord and Nyle explains to you the vampire story, a shame I had already done the Ainle part with my fiona and didn't get much of it) and with quests getting streamlined, so like, you don't have to face Lionotus twice, or forge the cadet badge, or find the Ergs for Kean in Fobellow Praire. S2 has some more introspective (S3 as well) regarding certain events, like when Ellis goes to die again, or character thinks to him/herself how nothing is changing, or when Kean asks us for the Erg and we can't go to Fobellow, we tell him we already know the royal army base like the back of our hands (because we were the before but not really) and know where they keep the spoils of war. On the larger scale it's the same, it's just better explained and better story telling. I'll be sure to update my summary as well once I get all caught up and correct everything I have to correct, furthermore, with the help of LynnCUBE I've got some translations for what happens in the Dullahan episode, but it's a very streamline thing.
And for those of you who think the blue crystal held an old god... No, the blue crystal was just concentrated divine power left over from Cromm, and wasn't Cromm or any other deity - just power.
What I want to know is what in the world the Destiny Stone thing was about. Alysse was a living, breathing human - so why would she be referred to as a stone? It's more likely she's a god vessel.
Also I believe the destiny stone was one of those legends past down and mixed, muddled, mistranslated or changed throughout the years. So the legend of the destiny stone could have been one thing but as it traveled to different areas, changed to another through bad translations, assumptions, etc.
Unlike what the Pontiff's Court tells everyone, Elchulus is NOT a fomor god, just a god of time with no affiliation, the chruch erases information about Cichol (the first time the royal army sees the statue of Cichol, Gilliam tries to call the fomors stupid, that they wouldn't recognize their own god's form, seeing as Elchulus is a dragon.).
The fomors in Season 1 are killing humans because they believe a similar prophecy of that of the humans (kill every human and god returns.) Keaghan is not Cichol's true vessel, Verafim had tampered with the blue crystal and the prophecy so that when he turned Keaghan into Cichol, he, Verafim, effectively stole god from the fomors.
This is not confirmed, but I believe that it's Lechaud that it's the true vessel for Cichol, also because right now, according to Muir and personal interpretation, Cichol is not yet complete (it's like he is part Cichol and part Keaghan in terms of personality).
I think we should label Timeline 1 to refer to pre-S3, pre-Rise S1/S2, and Timeline 2 to refer to Rise S1/S2 and S3. Because S1/S2 has context that makes it look as if Keaghan is the first Cichol (because Cichol was never mentioned in myth before S3), and it can lead into Mabi canon, while S3 destroys all of that.
Plus, Rise LITERALLY creates a new timeline with the player going back in time, so who's to say that they weren't transported into an already extant timeline? Heck, one could even theorize that there's a timeline where an alternate S2 hero got transported into a new timeline where they started S1. So with the devs' timeline excuse going on, who's to say that Timeline 1 didn't have a different history than Timeline 2? Or even that there's 3 or 4 timelines?
All that RISE did change was the Pact story, anything besides that was just streamlined and explained in simpler ways (refer to an older post of mine in this thread.) The new timeline always happened at the end of Season 1, it's how S1 and S2 tie in together, even before RISE, the new cutscene just explains it better.
And even if it was something different back when S2 was playable at levels 30-ish onwards, it's not what it is now, so it's not productive to create confusion trying to figure out and mixing "what is" with the "what could've/should've been", (even though I believe that even back then the same "going back in time with different decisions to see if fate remains the same" thing, was going on, just poorly managed in terms of telling what happened).
The same thing for S3, how can it not be canon? It's literally what we're playing through. The writers might be different ones that wrote it during the KR development, but it's the same story with the same plot points, they may change the direction of the story slightly, but I figure it stays true to the originally planed, though, it's all speculation if the story changed with the writers or if it stayed the same.
Only as part of the prophecy. It stated that Cichol would return, but I also remember it being stated that Cichol died. But if Cichol was really resurrected by the eating of the heart, which makes no sense as the blue crystal was a part of Cromm's power (not any other god's), he wouldn't have given a flying heck about Tieve - instead, CICHOL told Tieve not to forget who she truly is and promising to make her Tieve again, something that only KEAGHAN would say, so Cichol is not a separate being, Cichol is just Keaghan. Remember that it was said Tieve's soul was consumed by Morrighan, so Morrighan wouldn't give a flying heck about Keaghan; why, then would you think that Cichol would care about Tieve? He wouldn't, so Keaghan didn't get overtaken by a different soul - it's still just Keaghan.
Now, with that said, it's likely that Keaghan is just a fake Cichol. Keaghan heard the Fomorian prophecy from Shakarr, so he might have thought that he had become Cichol even though he's his own deity. It might even be that Verafim planned this, as he got Naveen to convince Keaghan of details that would make Keaghan think he'd become Cichol. Verafim's plan might be getting Keaghan to kill the real Cichol in order to take full control of the Fomors.
Cichol wasn't dead, he, and the rest of the gods were asleep with Elchulus sealed, Verafim took advantage of Cichol needing a vessel and tampered with that so it would be a vessel of his choosing with the blue crystal (how it relates to Cromm is beyond me, but it relates to the process without a doubt.
Tieve is now lost because she is the true vessel for Morrighan, Keaghan on the other hand was made into Cichol, which is why he retains his love/obsession for Tieve, it's not that he is fake, just incomplete.
It's safe to assume that the gods need human vessels, Morrighan took Tieve, and Cichol took Keaghan (or rather was forced to, it is my speculation that he was meant to end up with Lechaud as a vessel, since the fomor equivalent of the brotherhood was protecting him.)
The vessels seem to be chosen by the gods themselves or are prophecised seeing as Macha decided on Ceara, and Tieve was tied to Morrighan even before the awakening of Elchulus.
If Tieve was really lost, he would not have said, "Tieve, Morrighan will not have you. I will seal Elchelus and destroy this false paradise. Tieve, do not forget who you really are. Do not forget me. I will save you." He's a god at this point; I'm pretty sure he'd know whether or not Tieve would be outright destroyed - he suggests he can save her, which means she's still somewhere inside Morrighan; she's not lost.
Cichol: Wait for me. I will destroy this frozen, false paradise. I will become the seal myself and put Elchulus back to sleep. Until I completely seal him away, just until then, please wait for me.
Tieve: Such a pitiful, unfortunate man, you are…
This is a direct translation from the KR version. It's true we don't know if she is gone for good, though it is heavily implied, we haven't seen Morrighan since then so it's difficult to assess how she acts except from the one line she drops during the S1 finale. In the english version she only says "Keaghan. I'm so sorry."
But in the KR version she speaks differently. In one she still seems like she actually cares, and the other it seems like she feels pity for Keaghan but way more distant, I'd say even with some disdain, bear in mind that while she was Tieve she loved Keaghan.
I've seen a few spoilers about the new Aes Sidhe episode that was released on KR. If you don't care about spoilers take a look seeing as they hold some pertinent information on the topic at hand.
This is slightly off-putting for Tieve to still be in there. Now, she might still be, deep deep down. But the prophecy (the true one from the S1 finale) stated that her soul would be consumed along with her body by Morrighan, and her actions also implicate that.
EDIT: Also worth mentioning that Keaghan was acting like a madman during the whole S1 finale, I mean, he listened to the god damned Lizardman that was trying to kill us, then he tried to kill us. The man-god-child is delusional and desperate, so it's not far fetched that he'd do all kinds of stuff to try to get Tieve back, even if she weren't there anymore.
Of course, it would be a real kick in the face if there was never a separate soul to begin with, if there was never a separate personality, if "Tieve" was really Morrighan playing a prank on everyone by faking innocence her entire life. Ultimate plot twist.
In Mabi she is a major thot after Gen 10 I think, maybe Vindi will keep that trace of hers, who knows.
It's a small little joke. From one of the story dialogue. let me see if I can find the screen shot of it.
just thought it was funny. The actual beggar isn't Brynn, but I added it as a joke for my TLDR.