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Lann is impossible in Neamhain...

GucciDownGucciDown
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in Lann
Basically the title..
I play spear lann with pretty decent stats, 3k ad 127 crit(+22 from FI) and 68 speed with the rest capped.
I'm just kind of frustrated playing lann in neamhain. I have around 30 clears now, my surviability is pretty good, I rarely ever die or use all of my potions. It's just no matter how well i play I can't seem to ever do better than 5-6%. This raid is complete bullshit for lann, I rarely can start up any moonsplitter combo, and I find myself having to constantly dodge spam. It's frustrating thinking I did well, then getting 8th behind miris with +10 gear, like wtf...
I fear like all the future raids will be like this, if so, what's the point in anyone staying lann. The devs completely shafted this class, I've done it a few times with top tier lanns such as the number 1 ranked lann, ikevi, and if he can't even get top , then i have no hope :(.

If you guys have any tips on how to approach this raid I would greatly appricate it. Though it's probably to delete lann :(.

Comments

  • ikeviikevi
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    edited December 28, 2017
    Neam is more just knowing her moves over what class you have. I have been carried plenty of times by lanns with worse gear than me. That said this is a raid that I would love if the final dps never showed. I can have a great low hit run and do poorly precentage wise, vrs a crud 2 death run and still manage like 18 percent. (Both runs lasting about the same time.) Course much of that is how aggressive you are.

    Obviously neam is more designed for crits->glide, ie sword over spear. But as you get better you will start to time more gilde->ms->glide. It just takes time. And just realize now that many of the folks that are doing the main dps have run neam 200+ times and are just running through the motions at this point.


    And fyi I still am not that good on neam. I can only manage to dodge the neit neam combo about 50 percent of the time. That said I can't remember the last time I wasn't in the top 3 for dps.
    GucciDown
  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited December 30, 2017
    GucciDown wrote: »
    Basically the title..
    I play spear lann with pretty decent stats, 3k ad 127 crit(+22 from FI) and 68 speed with the rest capped.
    I'm just kind of frustrated playing lann in neamhain. I have around 30 clears now, my surviability is pretty good, I rarely ever die or use all of my potions. It's just no matter how well i play I can't seem to ever do better than 5-6%. This raid is complete bullshit for lann, I rarely can start up any moonsplitter combo, and I find myself having to constantly dodge spam. It's frustrating thinking I did well, then getting 8th behind miris with +10 gear, like wtf...
    I fear like all the future raids will be like this, if so, what's the point in anyone staying lann. The devs completely shafted this class, I've done it a few times with top tier lanns such as the number 1 ranked lann, ikevi, and if he can't even get top , then i have no hope :(.

    If you guys have any tips on how to approach this raid I would greatly appricate it. Though it's probably to delete lann :(.

    You might actully be doing good without knowing it.In fact 3k additional damage is not that much.I have been very impressed with some players from China,Taiwan,Thailand.Maybe this can help:




    Note:
    I never tried this raid on Lann,but id assume youd need to use Blood Pact all the time and not over commit to Hurricane/Moonsplitter.While the penalty from getting hit during Blood Pact is high,you'd still have to be close to her pretty much all the time.

    A spear Lann carry a short run last week and his stats where not that impressive.
    GucciDown
  • AtherionAtherion
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    Glide more and don’t rely on MS. Try to predict where Neamhain will be and try to keep her against edge of the map. When you have little openings, the key is to fish for crits where you simply need enough time to safely get gf and a roll off. A LF at that point is a free dodge and damage but remember to aim it at the edge of the map to keep her from flying away. Sink sp into F7 while excess goes into sh assuming your sp generation is high enough(it should be plenty if you land those glides). Just remember to F7 at the safest times where you know most of the hits will land without her flying away.

    Also don’t bother comparing your damage output to other classes since Lann (Swords/Spears) is one of the weakest classes in Neam. Take notice of how long the run lasts and how much you do. At those stats, a seasoned Spear Lann can probably do atleast 0.5% for each minute of the raid give or take, so try to aim for that after some practice.
    GucciDownmisakamisaka
  • ArxisArxis
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    edited December 28, 2017
    Disregard obsession with damage output. It’s more complicated than that, and not your fault. Besides, you always have room for growth as a player to keep getting better, so don’t worry. My friend Atherion explained it perfectly on how you should fight Neamhain with Spear Lann, so I won’t go over the actual fight itself.

    Damage differences towards the boss is strongly reliant on character vs. boss matchup, the character itself, and of course the effort and skill of the player as well. I’ll explain.

    I thought up of this simple venn diagram that may help you and give you a better perspective regarding boss fights in Vindictus. Incase you don’t know what a venn diagram is, a venn diagram is a diagram of two circles overlapping each other showing their relations of each other.

    In the left side of the circle, you have your character, their utilities, speed, etc. In the right side of the circle, you have the boss’ attack patterns. In the middle circle, are all your options you have available to take advantage of the boss. So remember this because it’s very important, just because you have all those skills at your disposal, does not necessarily mean you always have each of those options readily available. Your damage output will always be conflicted due to the boss’ attack patterns, the frequency of their attacks, as well as the specific character you are playing. Neamhain especially, certainly isn’t a sandbag.

    If you obsess about damage output, just remember this.

    There is a fine line between aggression and recklessness.
    GucciDownmisakamisaka
  • GucciDownGucciDown
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    I appreciate all the feedback. I don't really know how to quote multiple people so hopefully, an @ would suffice.

    @JessGame
    What do you mean by "While the penalty from getting hit during Blood Pact is high"?

    @Atherion
    So basically I have to give up moonsplitter in favor of glides. It just really sucks because moonsplitter is what makes spears what he is like I might as well play swords :\

    @Arxis
    Thanks, this really helped. I enjoy the gameplay of spear lann, gliding around is super fun. Just was a bit annoyed about how other classes have poke moves/dashes/counters etc etc, and lann still only has gliding fury.


  • DavsDavs
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    edited December 28, 2017
    1. Jess is probably referring to the 20% defense reduction that Blood Pact used to have. It was removed earlier this year, either with Rise or Neamhain idr.
    2. Glide spam is a semi-viable method of damaging but when it comes down to it moonsplitter will always give you a higher output. You don't sacrifice moonsplitter, you're just not able to hold moonsplitter for more than 5-10 seconds. At the highest level, the core gameplay is still centered around moonsplitting with glides being used to reposition yourself. (party play, you get more aggro in solos or duos which demands more glides)
    3. There will always be class disparities depending on the type of raid. The sad reality is that it doesn't matter how good you get, the best Lann will always lose to the best Fiona in Neamhain. This shouldn't discourage you from playing Lann though, if you master him you can still put up pretty respectable numbers in Neamhain, it's just a matter of practice.


    I would suggest finding a friend or two that would be willing to load up a practice run with you. Get past the first stage of Neit and run 10-8 until you feel comfortable. She only gets one new move in future stages which is her one hit KO, so if you can get 10-8 down you should be set. You're most likely are still playing to "survive" and not playing for efficiency. Just keep working at it, there's probably only a handful of Spear Lanns who have a proper grasp of how to approach the raid.

    You'll find that one of the biggest problems with Lann in party play is his lack of mobility. If you run with people who hug the boss his damage goes up by a quite a bit.
    misakamisaka
  • AtherionAtherion
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    Arxis and Davs are the two best Spear Lanns I know, so heed what they tell you C;

    As for not relying on MS, like Davs say, you should use it whenever you have the opening (ex: when she slams down after flying up). But small openings, or even ones you aren't absolutely sure about, try to get a glide off instead of say starting a LLLR into MS. A glide or two to start off a MS combo won't hurt while a failed LLLR is almost no damage at all.

    Should the opening be sufficient, chain into MS and hold it for as long as you can (ideally, you would want to glide out near the end of a MS chain, and either roll or LF to dodge the incoming attack to continue chaining into MS).




  • ikeviikevi
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    edited December 28, 2017
    And just remember it really just takes time. For the first 20 or so runs I kept on gliding away from neam to quick. And as said for half of the attacks if you don't have agro you can MS for 4/5 of her moves in a combo. Her last move ends up just making you have to time your crits/glides, or just pull a roll/crit/glid -> MS or run away ;-)

    At this point I have run ~50 neams on spear, and I finally feel like I am starting to get some of the MS timings down. (I didn't bother practicing neams phases since running 100x is already going to be an overkill.) And that said I had a fairly good run today, and well even me with my good, but not even close to great neam skills I did manage #1 in a <30 min run :-) (And as has been said, folks that really know this raid can manage >> DPS over what I can hit.)
    kH8zWUs.jpg
  • LeXicOLeXicO
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    I seem to do well on my spear Lann usually in the 20% + range, though I have high attack speed. I have no problem fitting moonsplitter in on her. Basically I use moonsplitter, glides, and lightning fury most of the raid.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    GucciDown wrote: »
    I appreciate all the feedback. I don't really know how to quote multiple people so hopefully, an @ would suffice.

    @JessGame
    What do you mean by "While the penalty from getting hit during Blood Pact is high"?

    Oh yes,i was reffering to the defense penalty from using Blood Pact,but i apparently missed an update.

  • GucciDownGucciDown
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    Thanks guy for your help. I've been working on it and I'm finally getting the hang of it! I reached my goal of consistently doing double digits, even doing a high of 15% in my run yesterday. Do you guys think with my stats 20% is achievable?

  • DavsDavs
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    I wouldn’t use the end % as a way to track progress. How well you do is always relative to the length of the run. A better way to track progress is seeing how much you do per minute (atherion touched on this), but even that is a flawed system.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    GucciDown wrote: »
    Thanks guy for your help. I've been working on it and I'm finally getting the hang of it! I reached my goal of consistently doing double digits, even doing a high of 15% in my run yesterday. Do you guys think with my stats 20% is achievable?

    It's a good thing if you're feeling an improvement,if your able to get in more hits between the boss patterns,that's already an improvement.It would probably help even more to solo or duo/trio the 1st phase of Neit/Neamhain with some friends or players who are willing to.This way you can get a lot more aggro and it will be quicker for you do determinate roughly what you can afford and what you cant afford to do in each situations.


    As already point out,additional damage makes a good differance and most of spear Lanns with high stats also have very high defensive stats so they can tank without having to worry too much.It's not something you can overdo like in regular raids,but being able to wisthand 3 hits before death and being able to wisthand 6-7 hits makes a good differance as well.Not quite absolutely necessary,but it *grants* them a few moments of carelesness,where they can get some extra damage in.


    Hardware will make a differance as well.Vindictus is pretty rough in term of specs requirements and playing close to 50-60 FPS versus playing around 30 FPS or under is out of comparison.

    The best advise would still be to stick with the character you prefer.There is no tell on how well your class will do in future raids.I think that if your gonna invest time in a character,it's better to pick the one that have the most interesting set of repetitions/features for you.The raw damage differance between most classes is not wide enough to be concerned and if there is a few differances,they lie on technicalities that could be subject to change at anytime or not.It's not so easy to fully gear a character,so i think that best bet would be to to pick the class that you prefer.