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Is Vindi Poorly Optimized Still?

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  • ReziRezi
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    Use Nvidia not AMD. Problem solved.

    Fixed.

    Also, AMD/Nvidia don't replace Intel, they supplement it. AMD/Nvidia are used as GPUs, not CPUs. Intel is a CPU. GPUs are optional, but don't replace CPUs.

    With that said, you COULD use Tegra or Ryzen as your CPU, but...why? Intel CPUs are still superior, because designing CPUs is what Intel is best at. And even if someone runs an Intel CPU, it doesn't matter once they tell their games to run on their GPU. Since the OP uses an Nvidia GPU, what CPU they have doesn't matter (unless their CPU is just plain outdated; otherwise, the brand means nothing).
  • AgathodaimonAgathodaimon
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    edited August 26, 2017
    Rezi wrote: »
    Use Nvidia not AMD. Problem solved.

    Nope. Vindictus is CPU intensive. GPU doesn't matter as much. I'm using 650 ti with an AMD FX 8320 and I still manage to get 50-60 frames with high settings. 60 fps all day when I upgrade to Ryzen/Vega.


  • erthoserthos
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    edited August 26, 2017
    Use AMD not Intel. Problem solved.

    This is just flagrantly wrong and you're just trying to bait replies, but I'll bite. It's VERY well known that AMD typically go for higher core-count and lower clockspeeds, which is the exact opposite of what you want for Vindictus- a theoretical 1 core 8GHz processor would give insane framerates in Vindictus, though not so much anywhere else. Solution: Buy a 7700k to get 4C/8T at high clock speeds.
  • ReziRezi
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    Nope. Vindictus is CPU intensive. GPU doesn't matter as much. I'm using 650 ti with an AMD FX 8320 and I still manage to get 50-60 frames with high settings. 60 fps all day when I upgrade to Ryzen/Vega.

    That's likely because you didn't even set your computer to use your GPU during games. Right-click desktop, go to the PhysX or whatever drop-down menu, and select GPU. If you do that, the game won't gaf about your CPU.

    Many gamers go years without realizing that their GPU is doing jack because they still have their computer's default setting to use their CPU during games. I had that problem too once, but once I set it to use my GPU my FPS went flying.
    clickhere
  • MrGattoMrGatto
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    edited August 26, 2017
    That setting doesn't really do a damn thing for Vindi,at least not to me.
    Vindi is using Source engine with Havok 'physics' in it,that works by default.

    For example if you try changing that for games like Borderlands 2/Pre sequel with Physics enabled then theres gonna be a huge difference.

    Idk why this is still a thing tho,I mean Vindi was always like this and probably at this point they wont change it.Well in a way they passively 'fixed' it by making the max party size 4,lol :D
    Game does not give a fart about multiple cores or your whatever settings,get a strong single core performance cpu and thats it. 'this goes for most older Asian MMOs'

    Theres no magic trick to make this game run much better with just some settings,sure there are a few things that can help a bit but thats about it.
    Unless I'm unaware of something that I missed since the Early Acces Open Beta,tried pretty much everything you can find about this topic over the years 'what a waste of time/effort' :*
    erthos wrote: »
    Buy a 7700k to get 4C/8T at high clock speeds.

    I guess an oced i 3 7350K to 5GHz would do wonders in this game and other older games with such shet optimization.:P



  • ReziRezi
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    MrGatto wrote: »
    That setting doesn't really do a damn thing for Vindi,at least not to me.


    Game does not give a fart about multiple cores or your whatever settings,get a strong single core performance cpu and thats it. 'this goes for most older Asian MMOs'


    Theres no magic trick to make this game run much better with just some settings,sure there are a few things that can help a bit but thats about it.


    Then you must be doing something wrong, because it works for me.


    Also, again, single-core vs dual-core vs quad-core does not matter. The claim that Vindi is core-intensive is a complete fabrication and may have only been true at launch. Modern hardware can handle Vindi with barely any change to how much of a core is being used. I literally posted the data earlier in the thread to show that - none of my cores were being stressed at all, despite one of them having Vindi on it, and the CPU usage only went up 15% which is nothing.


    There are many magic tricks to make it run better, actually, but they won't work if you don't have a display port, and I doubt you even know what that is. If you somehow do, though, I can tell you how to trick Vindi out. But since your computer is obviously terrible if switching to GPU changes nothing on Vindi, there's no point in teaching you how to go beyond the given graphics and bypass the FPS limit, which are all possible and aren't hard to do...if you have the equipment.



    I also suggest, if you already haven't, to go into your GPU settings and change the program settings for Vindi to enhance or replace the game's settings. If you have it set to use the game's settings, your GPU isn't going to be doing as much.

    Also, Borderlands 2? Are you serious? Use GTA5 or Witcher 3 to test these things, not B2 lol
  • RhapsodyOfFireRhapsodyOfFire
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    edited August 26, 2017
    Rezi wrote: »
    Nope. Vindictus is CPU intensive. GPU doesn't matter as much. I'm using 650 ti with an AMD FX 8320 and I still manage to get 50-60 frames with high settings. 60 fps all day when I upgrade to Ryzen/Vega.

    That's likely because you didn't even set your computer to use your GPU during games. Right-click desktop, go to the PhysX or whatever drop-down menu, and select GPU. If you do that, the game won't gaf about your CPU.

    Many gamers go years without realizing that their GPU is doing jack because they still have their computer's default setting to use their CPU during games. I had that problem too once, but once I set it to use my GPU my FPS went flying.

    There's one problem with that. Vindi uses the Source engine that uses the Havok physics engine that doesn't care about PhysX.

    I doubt there is an option to run the entire game on a GPU simply because a CPU and a GPU have completely different instruction sets.
  • ReziRezi
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    I doubt there is an option to run the entire game on a GPU simply because a CPU and a GPU have completely different instruction sets.

    No, but it doesn't run entirely on the CPU either.

  • RhapsodyOfFireRhapsodyOfFire
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    Rezi wrote: »
    No, but it doesn't run entirely on the CPU either.

    The only thing that runs on the GPU is the shaders. (surface textures and colors, vertex colors, lighting and shadow calculations, post-processing like anti-aliasing, ambient occlusion, motion blur and so on)

    But since companies usually buy HLSL shader scripts like CG, bad optimizations happen while programming the game logic. (input handling, networking, physics and so on)
  • MrGattoMrGatto
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    edited August 26, 2017
    Jesus..Now I remember why I stoped even trying in the past :|

    Do you know why I mentioned Borderlands?Cause that game actually uses physics related to that option you'suggested'.
    But Vindi does not,its a completely different thing.
    If this is what are you talking about at least: Random pic from google.
    23jqvww.png


    Ofc the game does not run entirely on the CPU'who said that?',but that doesn't mean that its not cpu bottle necked.
    Not because its that demanding on the current cpus and gpus but cause its not utilizing the hardware properly,again cause its an old engine and you can't just change the way the engine works if it wasn't programmed to do such.

    I build my own pcs for years now and actually pretty sensitive to performance problems in games and always use MSI afterburner to check if my cpu/gpu being used properly or not but thanks for the lecture I guess ;)
    +I have a custom profile in Nvidia Inspector for Vindi and it runs fine for me considering how badly its optimized so its a non issue for me but the game is still not running as it should but thats a common knowledge.
  • ReziRezi
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    ...........

    You use Dell products?

    Wow.
  • SuukeiSuukei
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    MrGatto said that's an image found from Google.
    Rezi
  • MrGattoMrGatto
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    edited August 26, 2017
    Rezi wrote: »
    ...........

    You use Dell products?

    Wow.
    MrGatto wrote: »
    If this is what are you talking about at least: Random pic from google.
    .


    Maybe learn to read first,thanks.
    Now I know not to waste time on you.
  • ReziRezi
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    MrGatto wrote: »
    Maybe learn to read first,thanks.
    Now I know not to waste time on you.

    Oops, I didn't see that because of your terrible spacing.

    With that said, I'm curious why you didn't PrntScrn your own settings, since we were having a discussion about how you don't know how to make your own computer play Vindi optimally. If you actually posted that information, we might be able to help you.
  • MrGattoMrGatto
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    edited August 26, 2017
    Rezi wrote: »

    Oops, I didn't see that because of your terrible spacing.

    With that said, I'm curious why you didn't PrntScrn your own settings, since we were having a discussion about how you don't know how to make your own computer play Vindi optimally. If you actually posted that information, we might be able to help you.

    MrGatto wrote: »
    +I have a custom profile in Nvidia Inspector for Vindi and it runs fine for me considering how badly its optimized so its a non issue for me but the game is still not running as it should but thats a common knowledge.

    I assume you missed that too?

    Game runs ok for me even with the extras I have on it in Inspector,optimal would be no fps drops but that aint happening in this game no matter what kind of hardware you throw at it or 'magic' you use.
    I did not screen it cause my OS is not in English nor that Control Panel.

    So apparently what you are saying is that no one who ever posted in these topics regarding Vindi's poor performance knows how to use a PC,except you?

    I guess the issue with the User interface droping fps is a fake issue too and you have a solution too? 'other than disabling it'

    Its been explained tons of time and the answer is still the same,unless you know something that NO ONE else knows.
    If thats the case the do enlighten everyone who has/had issues with this game performance wise in the past years even with high end PCs.

    Also you might find a way to 'bypass' Vindi's hard coded FPS limit and stuff like that but its capped at 60 for a reason.
    Even tho I'm yet to see anyone doing that.


    I'm not even gonna get into that 'fake' FPS thing you say,even if the FPS counter would be broken its pretty easy to notice when you have such huge fps drops like in this game or when you go to CH1 filled with ppl.
    Never heard of such thing and I do read hardware/game forums on a daily basis.

    Source engine is actually capable of solid and stable fps but not in this game,Team Fortress 2 for example cause they actually bother to update it unlike Vindi.

    But honestly,after your 'suggestion' to run the game on 'GPU' when its just the physics option not even related to this game in any way,idk why do I even bother so with that in mind I'm done here.
    Have fun spreading your beliefs. :)


    Maybe take a look at this topic and the video:
    forums.vindictus.nexon.net/discussion/4429/update-video-in-last-post-ryzen-hosting-test/p1

    Don't forget to tell them that they are all doing something wrong.
  • ReziRezi
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    edited August 26, 2017
    MrGatto wrote: »
    So apparently what you are saying is that no one who ever posted in these topics regarding Vindi's poor performance knows how to use a PC,except you?

    No, what I'm saying is that, based on what you've told me, you have better hardware than I do, yet I never, ever, EVER get any FPS drops. Ever. The only case where I might lag is in a party, but only if one person in that party has insanely bad Internet. And even if you're lagging, that wouldn't necessarily decrease your FPS (I don't even think it changes FPS, but I haven't had any real lag in any games in years beyond a DirectX rubberbanding issue that was developer-side). And if it IS your Internet making you lag, which I doubt since you would have said something, it can easily be fixed by QoSing to the server.

    MrGatto wrote: »
    Also you might find a way to 'bypass' Vindi's hard coded FPS limit and stuff like that but its capped at 60 for a reason.
    Even tho I'm yet to see anyone doing that.

    config_material.txt

    VSync to 0

    add lines:

    Max_fps 300 (or however high you want it to go)

    bSmoothFrameRate false

    Save, and set the properties to read-only. This will increase FPS but result in chopping if the FPS gets too high, so it's not recommended if you only have a 60Hz framerate, which if so do the following...

    If you have a display port or similar, change your Windows Settings from a 60Hz refresh rate to a higher one, then:

    VSync to 1

    Max_fps 300

    bSmoothFrameRate true (just in case)

    MaxSmoothedFrameRate 144 (or whatever Hz you set it to in Windows settings)

    Change the properties to read-only.


    The first case will simply uncap your FPS, the second case will make your FPS the same as your refresh rate, therefore resulting in a smooth high FPS, so no chopping.

    You have to set it to read-only because otherwise launching the game will overwrite the file. Most MMO companies do not punish players for editing this file, since it's just a graphics setting file, but idk about Nexon. I honestly don't suggest using either of these methods if you have 60Hz refresh rate and no display cable since the game looks amazing at 60 FPS regardless and you don't want it to look choppy. Some games read Max_fps 0 as unlimited FPS, but I don't think the developers made the game to read 0 as unlimited. Most games nowadays are made with 300 as the default max since their engines are built to handle it; the reason why Vindi is set to 60 is because the developers are too lazy to upgrade the engine to guarantee that the game can handle higher FPS without problems, as developers don't make a function they can't guarantee default in their games.

    You can also edit the file to greatly increase resolution, but... why?


    Oh, and if you want to undo these changes, just remove those extra lines and change properties to read-only. So long as VSync is still 0 or 1 the game should read it as such and there shouldn't be any problems in-game, so you can start changing settings in-game again.
  • MrGattoMrGatto
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    edited August 26, 2017
    Well I honestly don't know then cause if you look around then its not a rare 'problem' that ppl have lower fps in this game than they would expect based on their pcs.
    I guess you can call yourself really luck if you have no drops at all.

    If you check that topic and the video,even a fairly oced I 5 and an overkill card for this game has issues staying over 50+ all the time let alone a fix 60.

    Sure its better now with 4 ppls but still cannot manage a stable fps regardless of the ingame settings.
    Thats why I decided to go for the extra eye candy settings trough Inspector cause if the game runs the same on Low as on max then might aswell make it look better and actually stress my GPU.
    Even with all that I'm still being limited by my cpu in this game and I cannot OC this either.


    I do have display ports on my GPU but I do not have it on my Monitor and I don't have a converter.
    Would be pointless anyway since if I can't even reach a stable 60 then it would just make the drops even more obvious.

    As it is the game runs more or less between 45-60 fps except for certain things like Lugh's spin attack,then it drops noticeably for a few seconds.
    I do not have network lag in vindi,unless I happen to join a terrible host but I host myself most of the time so its rare.

    Anyway its kind of a 'moot' point cause I don't really play the game anymore or just solo/duo rarely but I still read the hardware related topics here and this is the first time I see someone claiming things like you do.

    Fun thing,the other old MMO I'm playing now is even worse in this regard xD 'When will Koreans learn to optimize?'

    Btw this is my system and it pretty much fits what was said in that topic,that its enough for 50-60 most of the time but has drops down to mid 40s or so.

    i 3 4160 '3.6GHz'
    GTX 950 Xtreme ~around 960 stock performance
    x2 4GBS DDR 3 1600 in Dual channel
    Win 7 ultimate

    But like I said,I can have the game on the lowest settings possible or maxed out,I pretty much have the same fps which is a clear CPU limit and a bad optimization.
    I had a few diff systems since I'm playing this game and this was the case every time,even tried it on a heavily oced Xeon system just for the lolz.

    Edit:
    If thats your cpu on the first page and Passmark can be trusted then my cpu has a better single thread performance than yours,which this game base its performance for the most part so idk.

    Also an interesting thing,I know its not the the same genre but Team Fortress 2 also use Source engine except that they update this game rather often.
    1440p resolution trough Nvidia DSR and maxed out ingame settings with x2MSAA.
    24 bots added to the map which is the max,all controlled by my PC and it still holds a rock solid 60 FPS V synched.

    But like many said before,in Vindi the User interface is one of the main fps killers for whatever reason.
  • ReziRezi
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    Okay, I take it back. Your specs are worse.

    You have i3, and the person in the video got 59/60 at i5, while I have an i7.
    You have GTX 950 Extreme, I have GTX 965M.
    You have x2 4GB, I'm assuming that's RAM, while I have straight up 16GB.
    You're using Win 7 Ultimate, I'm using Windows 10 Creators

    The main reason they were probably having problems in that thread was because the game isn't designed for AMD. There's a reason why AAA PC games recommended using either AMD or Nvidia GPUs because they're designed around one of them, while old games like Vindictus are purely designed for Intel CPUs. So if your CPU itself is AMD or Nvidia, you're not going to find many games compatible with it, nor will you find many games running optimally with an amazing GPU if your CPU itself i outdated (like i3/i5 instead of i7). Heck, even console games are designed specifically run the console's APU/CPU, of which different ones are used by different consoles (PS4/XB1 use AMD, N-Switch uses Nvidia). If you play a game on a PU it's not designed around, you're going to get bad performance, especially with outdated tech or tech the game itself does not recognize (like AMD/Nvidia CPUs).

    The main question in this thread is whether or not the game is optimized. It is - for Intel CPUs. FPS has nothing to do with optimization; if anything, the game's ability to reach 60 FPS at all with good hardware just shows that it was designed for the long-term, which is good. It's not optimized for non-Intel CPUs and outdated technology, but it's not supposed to be, and that's not a bad thing; after all, the whole point of the game was to design mechanics no one has successfully done before with good graphics and low sever load that presented a good deal of challenge, and the game succeeded at that - the point wasn't to create a game that can hit 120 FPS with outdated PUs and bad graphics, or else DevCat would have made a WoW clone like everyone else, as the whole point of WoW was to take EQ/DAoC systems and make them more player-friendly. Vindictus, just like Mabinogi, was an attempt at pushing MMO development to limits that others hadn't tried and get it to work without breaking everyone's PCs, so to that extent both games are well-optimized.
  • MrGattoMrGatto
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    edited August 27, 2017
    Well yes but my i 3 is actually stronger than your i 7 in the department that this game needs,which is single thread so your i 7 is doing exactly nothing extra in this game:/ 'its not an offense,just saying'

    The single thread pass mark performance of your cpu is: 1910+ and my i 3 is 2100+ and Vindictus only cares about this.

    My gpu is more like on par with a GTX 970M 'laptop version',my friend has it in his Laptop and we compared it.
    Also doesn't matter cause the game barely stress any half decent gpu,w/o the Inspector extras its not even reaching 50% in Vindi.

    I know that the game runs worse on AMD in general cause AMD has a worse single thread performance expecially in the FX serie,Ryzen is not bad actually.

    With everything considered and how old this game is,yes this game is terribly optimized cause it should run rock solid on any half decent pc nowadays.
    Since they relased the game its only getting worse with every bigger update but the game doesn't look any better or something.
    You can be sure that the pc I used ~7 years ago during the early NA Vindi days was way weaker than the current one.

    On a side note,since when was a i 5 outdated?
    i 3 is arguable but I'm still running AAA singleplayer games with it just fine.

    Anyway lets agree to disagree,I'm just tired of this.

  • ReziRezi
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    MrGatto wrote: »
    Well yes but my i 3 is actually stronger than your i 7 in the department that this game needs,which is single thread so your i 7 is doing exactly nothing extra in this game:/ 'its not an offense,just saying'

    The single thread pass mark performance of your cpu is: 1910+ and my i 3 is 2100+ and Vindictus only cares about this.

    Again, any core in a multi-core does the same exact thing as a single-core. 1910 vs 2100 is negligible, and even then...

    Both the i3 and i7 use hyper-threading (which doesn't matter in this game afaik), but i7 has turbo boost whereas i3 does not (but i7's turbo frequency is equal to i3's base), and i7 has double the cache size. While you do have better base speed, my better cache means I'm stressing my system less when running the same programs, and it helps that most of my programs are cleanly divided into 8 threads while yours are cluttered together in 4 threads.

    I'm not doing a war here for whether i3 or i7 is better because that's a moot point. What matters is results, and you're telling me that despite your 190 extra performance, you're getting worse FPS while I never, ever go below 59. Ever. That tells me that either your hardware is insufficient or you're not setting something up right.

    With that said, I highly suggest that you upgrade to Windows 10. Windows 7 is far worse for gaming than Windows 10, and an upgrade would definitely increase your performance.