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So how effective is Balance[Stat] right now?

PuppymanPuppyman
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edited June 29, 2017 in General Discussion
Does anyone have an idea of an equation for the effectiveness of Balance relative to total Add Dmg? Like [70 Bal + 2.5k Add] vs [90 bal + 2k Add] or something along those lines.


I just want to get a rough estimate of when you can start ditching a bit of balance for other stats after a certain amount of Add Dmg without massive damage output decrease, since it doesn't look like they plan on changing the formula any time soon...

I can't get my hands on a +15 90 within reasonable means[nor worth it means since 95 weps are on the horizon] to help with Dullahan.
I just don't want to be a liability for Dully parties since I'm not attack capped nor crit capped for it.


And yeah I know probably +15 doesn't even need Bal or some nonsense like that.

Comments

  • oCharlotteoCharlotte
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    edited June 30, 2017
    Well, when you think about it, It's not that difficult to understand (at least in a hypothesis) that higher balance means the likely hood of you hitting the maximum damage you can. with 90 balance basically being 90% of the time. If anything as long as you have 80+ you'll pretty much be good. as for Add. Damage + Bal It just sort of happens as you upgrade your gear.

    For example: 70 Bal + 2k Add. Damage vs. a 90Bal + 2k Add. damage, one is led to believe that the 90 balance would be better DPS due to the higher chance to hit harder.*

    Your choice though. If you want to ditch balance. Up to you. Just keep it above 70 to see your dps.

    Granted having high balance also gives you high Technique stat as well. Only because by the time you have fully upgraded you're probably going to have over 200 Technique stat.

    *Disclaimer: All values are not appropriate to any given class and there is a chance that a vella with Chainblades with 70 balance can out DPS a Fiona with 90 Balance if given the same additional Damage. Judging strictly on Balance and Add Damage.
  • boddoleboddole
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    @Puppyman:
    Shippu has done some work on this subject (search "The RISE Update (KR has it now, later this month for other regions)") since mods don't like direct links here. Scroll down to the 'balance' section.

    Additionally in doing my own math, if you are attack capped (~10.9k Eff. Att.) then balance works as follows (+ on weapon only):
    +10: ~72% of damage affected by balance.
    +13: ~45.5% of damage affected by balance.
    +15: ~35.5% of damage affected by balance.

    And if you have gear with a similar overall level to your weapon, basically divide those numbers by 2.

    Also since you asked, if you were ~2k below the Eff. Att. cap, then at +10, balance would affect ~68% of your damage.
  • duracellhaseduracellhase
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    edited June 30, 2017
    The Formula Pre Rise i know is this:

    Damage = (Effective ATT * Balance Roll + Additional Damage * 6.25) * Multiplier

    Effective ATT = (ATT - DEF) + 900 + DEF / 6 * ξ * sqrt(2 * (ξ - 0.39)^2 + 0.26)

    ξ ≡ 1 - (ATT - DEF) / DEF

    which still corresponds with what boddole said.


    If you have a +15, but no attack release, that means 3k additional damage and probably 10k effective ATT.

    So your Damage is 29600*Multiplier, but only 10900 (EFF ATT as boddole said) of it is affected by Balance.

    So lets take a look at balance:

    Balance decides a roll between probably with expentancy value of (balance+100)/2 , altough I dont know the distribution, but i would guess uniform.

    So one point of Balance, if you have 0 Additional Damage will increase your overall Damage by 0.5% on average.

    Say you have unenhanced armor:

    With a +10 0.72*0.5%, +13 0.45*0.5% and +15 0.35*0.5%.



    So even with a +10 Weapon and unenhanced gear, one point of balance is only worth 0.36% overall Damage on average.

    That is if those formulas are still correct.
  • PuppymanPuppyman
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    So if I have a +12 weapon, full set of +10 armor, and 25k att against Dullahan[28.5k soft* cap]
    How much balance can I sacrifice for say crit and maintain decent DPS?

    What about a +11 with full set of +10 armor, and 24k att again Dullahan[28.5k soft* cap]



    *Pre-Attack Removal




    Life would be so much easier with a +15 but rip an arm and a leg if I want to try get one now
  • boddoleboddole
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    "How much balance can I sacrifice for say crit and maintain decent DPS?"
    Puppy, let me say a few things at this point:

    -Since the Add. Dmg. changes, I think there is a strong case for saying Crit>Bal once over 50% of your damage comes from Add. Dmg. (so +13 weapon, 10/10 gear, maybe even 9/9 gear/12/8 and other such combinations). Whether or not it is 'as easy' or practical to get more Crit. or Bal. depends on your own situation and I can't answer that for you.

    -As far as 'the math' for Bal. goes, duracellhase and myself have given you pretty much all you need to know to do a decent job calculating that.

    -As far as 'the math' for Crit. goes, a simple rule of thumb would be to use: +/- points of change in Crit. * 0.95 * % of attacks you use that -can Crit.- [this last part gets forgotten a lot]. Compare and contrast this with Bal.

    -Don't ask about Attack Speed, its very difficult to pin down how much benefit in damage there is for a given change in AS.

    If your goal is to min/max to try and 'compete' with higher + users than yourself I'd honestly advise you not to bother, the gaps are just too large. If you are doing it just for fun, then take AS if you find that fun, if not, if more than 50% of your damage is from Add. Dmg, go for Crit., if less than 50%, take whichever stat (Bal./Crit.) you can get more of (in terms of realized damage) - or even AS for that matter for the 'fun factor'.
    Order5
  • PuppymanPuppyman
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    edited June 30, 2017
    boddole wrote: »
    "How much balance can I sacrifice for say crit and maintain decent DPS?"
    Puppy, let me say a few things at this point:

    -Since the Add. Dmg. changes, I think there is a strong case for saying Crit>Bal once over 50% of your damage comes from Add. Dmg. (so +13 weapon, 10/10 gear, maybe even 9/9 gear/12/8 and other such combinations). Whether or not it is 'as easy' or practical to get more Crit. or Bal. depends on your own situation and I can't answer that for you.

    -As far as 'the math' for Bal. goes, duracellhase and myself have given you pretty much all you need to know to do a decent job calculating that.

    -As far as 'the math' for Crit. goes, a simple rule of thumb would be to use: +/- points of change in Crit. * 0.95 * % of attacks you use that -can Crit.- [this last part gets forgotten a lot]. Compare and contrast this with Bal.

    -Don't ask about Attack Speed, its very difficult to pin down how much benefit in damage there is for a given change in AS.

    If your goal is to min/max to try and 'compete' with higher + users than yourself I'd honestly advise you not to bother, the gaps are just too large. If you are doing it just for fun, then take AS if you find that fun, if not, if more than 50% of your damage is from Add. Dmg, go for Crit., if less than 50%, take whichever stat (Bal./Crit.) you can get more of (in terms of realized damage) - or even AS for that matter for the 'fun factor'.

    My goal is to get as much crit for Dullahan without selling my soul to r7 enchants. And so far it's looking like I'm going to have to cut down on balance. I read from exaggerated complaints of ADD dmg that with superb high amounts, balance is irrelevant, and wondered how much it affected it's relevance. I have ~ 112 crit on my 2 chars I want to do dully with and I don't think that'll suffice for 4-man groups given neither are above the 25k mark.
  • hornywatermelonhornywatermelon
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    ^ 112 crit and below 25k ATT sounds like tons of dead weight ready to get carried hard.
  • erickhendrixerickhendrix
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    to easy answer your question, if your AD is not over3k, then you should worry about getting bal AND crit, if that´s not the case, then you shouldn't even ask yoruself if you can maybe have 70 bal and 110crit, gear yourself up to increase both, to put you in perpective to get 3000 ad you need a +12 wep and full +10 set of armor.
    now if you HAD that ad, then you could probably think of having 80 bal and 130 crit without trouble
  • PuppymanPuppyman
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    edited July 1, 2017
    to easy answer your question, if your AD is not over3k, then you should worry about getting bal AND crit, if that´s not the case, then you shouldn't even ask yoruself if you can maybe have 70 bal and 110crit, gear yourself up to increase both, to put you in perpective to get 3000 ad you need a +12 wep and full +10 set of armor.
    now if you HAD that ad, then you could probably think of having 80 bal and 130 crit without trouble

    My problem laid more along sacrificing Bal in order to get ~130 crit, not sacrificing Bal to just get ~110 crit :>
    But oh well, I've begun farming money to buy r7 pre-enchanted gear, namely gloves and boots, that should aid a fair bit. Will be costly and not so worht it with 95 around the corner, but it's more important to me not being a liability in raids.
  • duracellhaseduracellhase
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    Okay let me say it more simple:
    If you have no additional damage at all, then
    +1 balance ~ +0.5% dmg
    +1 crit ~ 0.95% dmg

    If you have +10 weapon and unenhanced armor:
    +1 balance ~ 0.36% dmg
    +1 crit ~ 0.95% dmg

    So once you have a +11 weapon, or a +10 weapon and slightly enhanced armor, you can basically say, that one point in crit equals at least 3 points in balance.

    _________________________________________________________________________________________

    Another note on Attack speed

    As it has already been mentioned this is not an easy calculation.

    Stamina wont be higher if you have higher attack speed on one hand (so the overall number of attacks might be the same).

    Then again more attack speed might enable you to do attacks on bosses you might be unable to do without. ( you just dont have the time to execute those attacks between certain movements of bosses)

    But there again:
    Lets assume you have good enhanced gear (weapon higher than +13, armor +8 or higher(+8 on gear pretty easy now)).

    Then a fast scroll (-8 bal, +5 attackspeed) might still increase your damage, even if you sacrifice those 8 balance completely.

    I mean it looks good and all to have 90 balance but if i had a +13 weapon i would give a crap about having more than 80 balance, if I could push crit and atts instead.
  • HallyHally
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    to easy answer your question, if your AD is not over3k, then you should worry about getting bal AND crit, if that´s not the case, then you shouldn't even ask yoruself if you can maybe have 70 bal and 110crit, gear yourself up to increase both, to put you in perpective to get 3000 ad you need a +12 wep and full +10 set of armor.
    now if you HAD that ad, then you could probably think of having 80 bal and 130 crit without trouble

    You need full +12 armor to reach 3k AD with a +12 weapon; or a +13 weapon with +10 armor.


    Regarding speed; it highly depend on the character. Characters that basically never run out of stamina like spear lann or sword fifi can fit in extra attacks in most situations; while characters that are severely stamina restricted like arisha doesn't get more attacks per minute. Characters that are highly dependent on fitting L4 smash like lynn or scythe can get big damage increases when the speed allow them to fit the smash; while characters that doesn't use the l4 smash system like kai get a much smaller boost.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    Sylas

    -I originally had over 90 balance,but i decided to put an extra Fast on my belt(Cheaper for me than Subdued,less trouble to succeed).

    -I currently have: 86 balance/127crit/100 speed

    -My overall damage hasn't decreased at all perhaps i even get better performances,due to the maximal stamina increase.

    -More significant attacks landed in a safer way

    -Only downside was my dodge invulnerability frame that got pretty low,but im used to it now

    -I would have the possibility to switch to: 84 balance/133 crit/96 speed if i change Righteous for Immoral

    -and than: 80 balance/136 crit/94 speed if i change well-balanced for Temporal

    -(I have 3958 Add Damage for now)

    -Also,If i ever decide to switch my stats,the Dulhuan rings could allow me to get+2 balance and infuse +4 balance more easely,so +6 bal in total.



    For now i found this video,the guy's stats are posted on the page:



    Stats:
    Atk 30.4k Def 16.2k Crit Resist 119

    Bal 83 AtkSpd 88 Crit 144

    Atk Release 550

    Additional dmg 4530
    Scythe Evie:

    Stats:
    Atk:30.5k
    Def:15.9k
    Crit Resist:118
    Balance:**66**
    AtkSpd:105
    Crit :140
    Atk Release:2600
    Additional dmg:4500

    About 50 minutes solo Neamhain clear:



    Im not making any statement,just posting some visual and information for those who don't want to or cannot play too much with their build yet.
  • IkarsuIkarsu
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    85-90 balance is near perfection of max damage potential of the weapon.

    80-84 will experience some instability on damage, you will see lower numbers when compared to 85-90 balance users. Pretty good threshold for farming runs in you're looking into casual play.

    75-79 will experience lower numbers when compared to 80-84. However, this is the highest a 90 weapon can get without the support of armor and accessory enchantments/attaining the Ein lacher titles.

    70-74 (usually base level on some weapons) will experience instability on the weapon. Sometimes your attacks will hit much lower than usual. This is usually the balance threshold as players start off on season 3, and will experience a wall when fighting s3 bosses for the first time.

    65-69 The weapon will experience incredible instability on the max potential of the weapon, making damage extremely wonky and all over the place. This makes solo runs (unless you have the speed to make up for it) much harder to do.

    60-64 Same as 65-69, except 3x as worse. However, this is the average of some 80 weapons.

    Below 60 You're better off farming S2 runs on normal mode until you find a way to get better balance. I'm sorry to say, but attempting to solo bosses on S3 with this kind of balance just won't cut it, esp when you have the curse of weakness being thrown at you as you traverse through the dungeons. Trying to solo s3 with this is like taking a wooden sword to a dragon on the highest difficulty possible while having dark souls "punishment" mechanics. This may be an extremely unlikely, but possible scenario if anyone plans on getting fast scrolls on accessories before anything else, or has raider's weapons (assuming that's still in the game anymore).

    I put every threshold to the test using cross guns that can fit into these thresholds and may vary from class to class, either being not as bad, or becoming completely worse when it comes to dealing effective damage.

    A way to get balance:

    Golden god in Ein lacher: +5

    Valor: +5

    Enthusiastic: +5 on each part applied.

    Rank 7 scrolls: usually totals to 16 balance when all of them are applied (4 fragments will assemble into the 100% scroll when right clicked).

    Rolling +2 balance on infusion via weapon or accessories, max of 12 balance.

    The dead enchant: +5 on success per ring, (becomes a fragment when failed with rune).

    Woeful/Grim belts: +2 balance (obtained by crafting abom's accessory essence with 10 heaven leathers, 10 paradise orb, 2 oj tier smooth shards (100 seals of bravery).

    max level 90 balance = 75

    max level 80 balance = 65-80 depending on the weapon used.
  • AtherionAtherion
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    edited July 8, 2017
    Pre-rise, additional damage was not affected by balance while your attack over the boss defense was. (capped at 10800 effective attack or along those lines)

    1 point of additional damage is worth 6.25 points of attack.

    So after rise, with everyone obtaining obscure amounts of additional damage, whether nuking your balance with fasts is the new meta would depend on whether balance now affects additional damage. From what I heard according to a friend, this was addressed a while ago in Korea shortly after Rise and additional damage is affected by balance making it as important as ever.

    However, I have not seen any samples and am too lazy/unmotivated to conduct my own testing to confirm or debunk this.

    Assuming this is not the case and additional damage still works the same as pre-rise, a person with 3k additional damage and attack cap will have a total effective attack of 10800 + 3000*6.25 = 29550. However, balance would only affect the 10800 effective attack which means its value has dropped to slightly over a third of its previous value for a character with 3k additional damage.
  • EnigmaTaroEnigmaTaro
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    Atherion wrote: »
    Pre-rise, additional damage was not affected by balance while your attack over the boss defense was. (capped at 10800 effective attack or along those lines)

    1 point of additional damage is worth 6.25 points of attack.

    So after rise, with everyone obtaining obscure amounts of additional damage, whether nuking your balance with fasts is the new meta would depend on whether balance now affects additional damage. From what I heard according to a friend, this was addressed a while ago in Korea shortly after Rise and additional damage is affected by balance making it as important as ever.

    However, I have seen any samples and am too lazy/unmotivated to conduct my own testing to confirm or debunk this.

    Assuming this is not the case and additional damage still works the same as pre-rise, a person with 3k additional damage and attack cap will have a total effective attack of 10800 + 3000*6.25 = 29550. However, balance would only affect the 10800 effective attack which means its value has dropped to slightly over a third of its previous value for a character with 3k additional damage.

    This is true now since Miri release.