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Everyone's comparing crossgun Kai to other characters on a 1:1 basis, which probably shouldn't be done. Saying "hey why does scythie get this super blink when I have this dumb one" pretty much applies to most other characters.
Also, I think the ones attacking Kai's nerf really take the fact that Kai is ranged for granted. Saying Kai is mostly in melee range is really an exaggeration since you are still able to maintain a respectable amount of distance from bosses - enough do avoid MANY attacks. Sure there are still wide area attacks that "melee Kais" have to deal with, but doesn't everyone who is "melee" have to? No offense, but is playing crossgun that brain dead that you can't even bother to think ahead to time your attacks(like going in for a hollowshot) or reposition yourself out of "melee range" to not get hit by wide hits or multi strikes?
Sure the nerf sucks, we all hate nerfs, but surviving with the new dodge isn't an impossible feat.
It's not about timing attacks in and out of melee range, as crossgun for max DPS you always want to spin smash if you have to dodge, you always want to animation cancel hollow shot with dodge spin smash, you want to use all revolver skills (besides spin smash and bolt storm) on cooldown essentially, hollow is 6sec cd and melee range. most (not so great) kais already animation cancel by dodging away from the boss not towards him. So if gun kai gets forced to play from far away against bosses with multihits that will go through his non-bolt dodge eventually (Keaghan 4 hit) out of fear of getting literally trapped in his dodge frames, that is dumb and only punishes the good kais.
Bow kai doesnt have this problem because he has dodge grapple. And for example spear lann doesn't have this problem because his dodge is ultra-fast, unlike laggy crossgun dodge.
Point is laggier dodge -> makes it significantly harder to avoid quick multihit attacks -> play farther away so you don't have to dodge as much -> inefficient and less DPS overall.
If it was intended to make farming slower, that's just dumb.
there is literally no point in argueing. All the non gun kai's or those who claimed to hve played him alot will state this nerf was necessary and a "bug" thats fixed. They can make whatever assumption they wanna make and if they feel they are right so be it. We are all gonna hve to agree to disagree and move on.
It's not about timing attacks in and out of melee range, as crossgun for max DPS you always want to spin smash if you have to dodge, you always want to animation cancel hollow shot with dodge spin smash, you want to use all revolver skills (besides spin smash and bolt storm) on cooldown essentially, hollow is 6sec cd and melee range. most (not so great) kais already animation cancel by dodging away from the boss not towards him. So if gun kai gets forced to play from far away against bosses with multihits that will go through his non-bolt dodge eventually (Keaghan 4 hit) out of fear of getting literally trapped in his dodge frames, that is dumb and only punishes the good kais.
Bow kai doesnt have this problem because he has dodge grapple. And for example spear lann doesn't have this problem because his dodge is ultra-fast, unlike laggy crossgun dodge.
Point is laggier dodge -> makes it significantly harder to avoid quick multihit attacks -> play farther away so you don't have to dodge as much -> inefficient and less DPS overall.
If it was intended to make farming slower, that's just dumb.
This x2. You've said most of the things I wanted to. :-)
This nerf punishes the skilled Kais far, far more than your run of the mill kai. I play solo 98% of the time, and this pretty much ensures my xgun's solo dps potential ceiling has just collapsed by a couple rungs. There's nothing quite as exhilarating as playing xgun in a manner that could confuse people into thinking, "Hey, isn't this supposed to be a ranged character?" Xgun Kai's highest potential both dps and fun-wise lies in where he fights up close and personal. It's where you're forced to keep track of many things at the same time: everything that you would with melee classes, but also your multiple cooldowns and manual rotations. People who say that Kai is piss easy are half right--but this patch doesn't really affect the people who play kai in his easy mode nearly as much as it does people who are used to playing Kai in the most risky way possible to squeeze out every last bit of his potential. It takes me more effort to play xgun in this way than it does when I try to go all-out with my sword lann. This patch forces the really good kais to play significantly more like average kais--more safely, more simply, and less exciting.
Biggest problem with nerfing the dodge now is that it should've happened YEARS ago if it was going to. It's literally been there for that long, and any crossgun Kai who learned the class at all was familiar with it, and relied on it to maximize their potential. The concept of relying on positioning to avoid further attacks has largely been phased out with the direction they've taken characters and bosses; everything has been moving away from that save moves that go through iframes/blocks. His dodge was an exceedingly powerful and useful tool, and it frequently was overboard; but this implementation for addressing it is both horribly timed and goes about fixing it in the wrong way. It's not really feasible to try and play to full efficiency against the bosses present with their multihit moves when it has such a long recovery window. As others have suggested, reducing the frames on the dodge instead of increasing its recovery would have given a much more balanced result.
On top of that, crossgun's revamp already addressed his dodge mechanics; they'd actually made it slightly faster than it used to be, but compensated for this by drastically increasing his reliance on using six shooter and perforate; while either of those were being used, not only could crossgun not bolt roll, he couldn't do ANYTHING else. No pots, no merc pots, no interacting with game mechanics like Muir's ledge grab or BLR's pillars; it gave him a very high-risk/high-reward style of play, where you had to be thoughtful of when and how you used your primary dps rotation. That feeling is gone now. Things were already clearly being balanced and adjusted around the presence of that ability, and to suddenly remove it now without having any other changes simply ignores the work that was already done to help bring him in line.
There were a lot of better ways to handle this rather than gutting the core playstyle of the weapon. Reducing the frames, upping the stamina cost, or even increasing the delay to the point where it's at least on parity with other dodges like spear Lann's would have all been better options, even combined. Even bow kai has a quicker recovery on his standard dodge now, with grapple added on top of it (along with a block, although that one doesn't really count).
And yes, crossgun Kai has range, and yes, that's a prominent advantage. But he is forced to stay at most just outside of melee range if he wants to deal proper dps, and failing to have a non-position-based answer to multihit attack combos is an even bigger disadvantage. No other class is currently limited that way, even ones with longer range or in the same range.
Honestly, I don't mind this nerf / bugfix it makes spin smash actually useful and I'm used to dodging with bow and twister kick so I don't have much of an issue with this change. IMO though who really got hiy hard with this update is bows dodge, the iframes on that dodge right now might very well be the lowest they have ever been, even perhaps equal or lower to what bow kai had pre revamp, but that's alright because it makes dodge grapple useful as it is a criminally underused skill.
On the other hand the buff gun got to its SP gain is absolutely criminal. For the first time with gun I'm able to play very comfortably withouy cat and still not lose much DPS, on the other hand bow overall seems slightly faster / stronger. Arrows fly out faster, arrow storm lands faster and my arrows have been doing 7k on crit (normal arrows) I've never seen my arrows do so much before so that's a plus.
TLDR: This update nerfed survivability but buffed damage so it's NOOOOOOIIIIIIIICE!
On the other hand the buff gun got to its SP gain is absolutely criminal.
TLDR: This update nerfed survivability but buffed damage so it's NOOOOOOIIIIIIIICE!
Whaaaat?
Maybe I'm a lame xgunner, but I haven't noticed any SP gain boost. I certainly haven't seen any damage boost. +calm
If it was intended to make farming slower, that's just dumb.
Seeing as they kept the ability for Scythe Evie, Sylas, and Delia to still zip through zones (in particular Delia spinning infinitely via canceling), I doubt it. There was a conscious decision to make this change, though I can't imagine why. It was hardly game breaking and only served to make Kai a bit easier, which they've done to all the other characters with every revamp anyway.
Maybe I'm a lame xgunner, but I haven't noticed any SP gain boost. I certainly haven't seen any damage boost. +calm
Dodge then right click to use spin smash your avoid multi hit attacks. Also normal xgun shots now earn a crazy amount of SP, idk how you can not notice.
Maybe I'm a lame xgunner, but I haven't noticed any SP gain boost. I certainly haven't seen any damage boost. +calm
Dodge then right click to use spin smash your avoid multi hit attacks. Also normal xgun shots now earn a crazy amount of SP, idk how you can not notice.
Maybe I'm a lame xgunner, but I haven't noticed any SP gain boost. I certainly haven't seen any damage boost. +calm
Dodge then right click to use spin smash your avoid multi hit attacks. Also normal xgun shots now earn a crazy amount of SP, idk how you can not notice.
Spin smash doesn't give invulnerability.
Neither does Twister Kick, but Bow Kais do it anyway. Sprint smash and Gliding Fury don't give invulnerability, but Lanns still use it for position based evasion.
Maybe I'm a lame xgunner, but I haven't noticed any SP gain boost. I certainly haven't seen any damage boost. +calm
Dodge then right click to use spin smash your avoid multi hit attacks. Also normal xgun shots now earn a crazy amount of SP, idk how you can not notice.
Spin smash doesn't give invulnerability.
Which is why you use it to dodge away, not towards the boss.
Maybe I'm a lame xgunner, but I haven't noticed any SP gain boost. I certainly haven't seen any damage boost. +calm
Dodge then right click to use spin smash your avoid multi hit attacks. Also normal xgun shots now earn a crazy amount of SP, idk how you can not notice.
I guess I didn't make it clearer. Using that technique hardly does anything to help. All it does is temporarily creates a bit more distance. It's not so similar to bow kai's dodge+kick.
Can anyone else corroborate the claim about SP accumulation rate from normal shots? The update notes say nothing about it.
Maybe I'm a lame xgunner, but I haven't noticed any SP gain boost. I certainly haven't seen any damage boost. +calm
Dodge then right click to use spin smash your avoid multi hit attacks. Also normal xgun shots now earn a crazy amount of SP, idk how you can not notice.
I guess I didn't make it clearer. Using that technique hardly does anything to help. All it does is temporarily creates a bit more distance. It's not so similar to bow kai's dodge+kick.
Can anyone else corroborate the claim about SP accumulation rate from normal shots? The update notes say nothing about it.
I haven't noticed any increase in SP with normal shots. I'm assuming they might have increased their attack speed recently and noticed a difference and think they made some changes.
Maybe I'm a lame xgunner, but I haven't noticed any SP gain boost. I certainly haven't seen any damage boost. +calm
Dodge then right click to use spin smash your avoid multi hit attacks. Also normal xgun shots now earn a crazy amount of SP, idk how you can not notice.
I guess I didn't make it clearer. Using that technique hardly does anything to help. All it does is temporarily creates a bit more distance. It's not so similar to bow kai's dodge+kick.
Can anyone else corroborate the claim about SP accumulation rate from normal shots? The update notes say nothing about it.
Must be referring to the effects of Hunting party during that duration of 38 seconds. Other than that, no, there is no base increase at all. I'm still getting 6 sp per shot that hits.
Comments
Also, I think the ones attacking Kai's nerf really take the fact that Kai is ranged for granted. Saying Kai is mostly in melee range is really an exaggeration since you are still able to maintain a respectable amount of distance from bosses - enough do avoid MANY attacks. Sure there are still wide area attacks that "melee Kais" have to deal with, but doesn't everyone who is "melee" have to? No offense, but is playing crossgun that brain dead that you can't even bother to think ahead to time your attacks(like going in for a hollowshot) or reposition yourself out of "melee range" to not get hit by wide hits or multi strikes?
Sure the nerf sucks, we all hate nerfs, but surviving with the new dodge isn't an impossible feat.
Bow kai doesnt have this problem because he has dodge grapple. And for example spear lann doesn't have this problem because his dodge is ultra-fast, unlike laggy crossgun dodge.
Point is laggier dodge -> makes it significantly harder to avoid quick multihit attacks -> play farther away so you don't have to dodge as much -> inefficient and less DPS overall.
If it was intended to make farming slower, that's just dumb.
This x2. You've said most of the things I wanted to. :-)
This nerf punishes the skilled Kais far, far more than your run of the mill kai. I play solo 98% of the time, and this pretty much ensures my xgun's solo dps potential ceiling has just collapsed by a couple rungs. There's nothing quite as exhilarating as playing xgun in a manner that could confuse people into thinking, "Hey, isn't this supposed to be a ranged character?" Xgun Kai's highest potential both dps and fun-wise lies in where he fights up close and personal. It's where you're forced to keep track of many things at the same time: everything that you would with melee classes, but also your multiple cooldowns and manual rotations. People who say that Kai is piss easy are half right--but this patch doesn't really affect the people who play kai in his easy mode nearly as much as it does people who are used to playing Kai in the most risky way possible to squeeze out every last bit of his potential. It takes me more effort to play xgun in this way than it does when I try to go all-out with my sword lann. This patch forces the really good kais to play significantly more like average kais--more safely, more simply, and less exciting.
On top of that, crossgun's revamp already addressed his dodge mechanics; they'd actually made it slightly faster than it used to be, but compensated for this by drastically increasing his reliance on using six shooter and perforate; while either of those were being used, not only could crossgun not bolt roll, he couldn't do ANYTHING else. No pots, no merc pots, no interacting with game mechanics like Muir's ledge grab or BLR's pillars; it gave him a very high-risk/high-reward style of play, where you had to be thoughtful of when and how you used your primary dps rotation. That feeling is gone now. Things were already clearly being balanced and adjusted around the presence of that ability, and to suddenly remove it now without having any other changes simply ignores the work that was already done to help bring him in line.
There were a lot of better ways to handle this rather than gutting the core playstyle of the weapon. Reducing the frames, upping the stamina cost, or even increasing the delay to the point where it's at least on parity with other dodges like spear Lann's would have all been better options, even combined. Even bow kai has a quicker recovery on his standard dodge now, with grapple added on top of it (along with a block, although that one doesn't really count).
And yes, crossgun Kai has range, and yes, that's a prominent advantage. But he is forced to stay at most just outside of melee range if he wants to deal proper dps, and failing to have a non-position-based answer to multihit attack combos is an even bigger disadvantage. No other class is currently limited that way, even ones with longer range or in the same range.
On the other hand the buff gun got to its SP gain is absolutely criminal. For the first time with gun I'm able to play very comfortably withouy cat and still not lose much DPS, on the other hand bow overall seems slightly faster / stronger. Arrows fly out faster, arrow storm lands faster and my arrows have been doing 7k on crit (normal arrows) I've never seen my arrows do so much before so that's a plus.
TLDR: This update nerfed survivability but buffed damage so it's NOOOOOOIIIIIIIICE!
Maybe I'm a lame xgunner, but I haven't noticed any SP gain boost. I certainly haven't seen any damage boost. +calm
Seeing as they kept the ability for Scythe Evie, Sylas, and Delia to still zip through zones (in particular Delia spinning infinitely via canceling), I doubt it. There was a conscious decision to make this change, though I can't imagine why. It was hardly game breaking and only served to make Kai a bit easier, which they've done to all the other characters with every revamp anyway.
Dodge then right click to use spin smash your avoid multi hit attacks. Also normal xgun shots now earn a crazy amount of SP, idk how you can not notice.
Spin smash doesn't give invulnerability.
Neither does Twister Kick, but Bow Kais do it anyway. Sprint smash and Gliding Fury don't give invulnerability, but Lanns still use it for position based evasion.
Which is why you use it to dodge away, not towards the boss.
I guess I didn't make it clearer. Using that technique hardly does anything to help. All it does is temporarily creates a bit more distance. It's not so similar to bow kai's dodge+kick.
Can anyone else corroborate the claim about SP accumulation rate from normal shots? The update notes say nothing about it.
I haven't noticed any increase in SP with normal shots. I'm assuming they might have increased their attack speed recently and noticed a difference and think they made some changes.
Must be referring to the effects of Hunting party during that duration of 38 seconds. Other than that, no, there is no base increase at all. I'm still getting 6 sp per shot that hits.
Ironically enough, I'm still scoring almost in that range for damage despite this "fix".
Just losing DPS due to being out of range that is needed to maximizing it kind of just like having a car that goes flat.
If Kais in event gear were taking top damage with +9 80 weaps your group was just bad.