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I have an idea to make Hammer more favorable.

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  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited June 11, 2017
    Leucosie wrote: »
    As for the last one, it is a speed run ( 33k att + stims + damage pot on uncapped zeca ) so idk.






    I perfectly know that the sword was before the uncap,but yet it's still has a combo booster and it's done with a +15.Check in the hammer video he doesn't have a +15 and has only 27-28k.

    The other Sword user had a 5k extra attack on him and weilds a +15 as well.None of these shows a specific superiority of Sword over Hammer specifically.

    Hammer has 73 attack speed

    Swords have respectively
    -89
    -99

    I do see a comparison
    Leucosie wrote: »
    As for the last one, it is a speed run ( 33k att + stims + damage pot on uncapped zeca ) so idk.

    I have been comparing Hammer to Sword,im not comparing the sword solo to yours,im showing you points of referances
  • LeucosieLeucosie
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    JessGame wrote: »
    I have been comparing Hammer to Sword,im not comparing the sword solo to yours,im showing you points of referances

    Of course I got that because this is what we are talking about
    JessGame wrote: »
    I perfectly know that the sword was before the uncap,but yet it's still has a combo booster and it's done with a +15.Check in the hammer video he doesn't have a +15 and has only 27-28k.

    No he has a +14 ( the difference between a +14 and a +15 still isn't that huge, hold on Rise hasn't hit our servers yet ! ) but do you only realise how how huge 27.4 att is compared to the former att cap ( 19k for zecallion ) ?
    JessGame wrote: »
    The other Sword user had a 5k extra attack on him and weilds a +15 as well.None of these shows a specific superiority of Sword over Hammer specifically.

    Of course cause they are not worth comparing. Next time you are linking solos for comparison purpose make sure to first check the version and patch of the game and the consumables that were used. Under those conditions you will never find a hammer solo that comes close to a longsword solo for any boss in the game.


    Anyway, I honestly think we should stop it right there, that thread has already been kinda off-topic for some time. Everyone knows hammer is weaker than LS because it is so obvious after having played both weapons except to you for some reason. Correct me if i'm wrong but I think you haven't played hammer enough and that neamhain hammer solo impressed you so much ( don't get me wrong he displays impressive skills just as any neamhain soloer of any characters ) that you came to think that with hard work hammer and longsword could be neck-and-neck. All this made me remember of a thread back in the old Eu forum where someone wouldn't stop arguing that the hammer + largeshield combo was better than the smallshield + hammer one.


  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited June 11, 2017
    Leucosie wrote: »
    JessGame wrote: »
    I have been comparing Hammer to Sword,im not comparing the sword solo to yours,im showing you points of referances

    Of course I got that because this is what we are talking about
    JessGame wrote: »
    I perfectly know that the sword was before the uncap,but yet it's still has a combo booster and it's done with a +15.Check in the hammer video he doesn't have a +15 and has only 27-28k.

    No he has a +14 ( the difference between a +14 and a +15 still isn't that huge, hold on Rise hasn't hit our servers yet ! ) but do you only realise how how huge 27.4 att is compared to the former att cap ( 19k for zecallion ) ?
    JessGame wrote: »
    The other Sword user had a 5k extra attack on him and weilds a +15 as well.None of these shows a specific superiority of Sword over Hammer specifically.

    Of course cause they are not worth comparing. Next time you are linking solos for comparison purpose make sure to first check the version and patch of the game and the consumables that were used. Under those conditions you will never find a hammer solo that comes close to a longsword solo for any boss in the game.


    Anyway, I honestly think we should stop it right there, that thread has already been kinda off-topic for some time. Everyone knows hammer is weaker than LS because it is so obvious after having played both weapons except to you for some reason. Correct me if i'm wrong but I think you haven't played hammer enough and that neamhain hammer solo impressed you so much ( don't get me wrong he displays impressive skills just as any neamhain soloer of any characters ) that you came to think that with hard work hammer and longsword could be neck-and-neck. All this made me remember of a thread back in the old Eu forum where someone wouldn't stop arguing that the hammer + largeshield combo was better than the smallshield + hammer one.


    It has nothing to do with this specific video,i linked it as a referance and i already had my opinion about the topic.

    Any Zecallion Solo that is significantly under the 4:28 clear done by this Hammer,involves the usage of stims/peformance enhancers,damage pots or special items that puts them over 34k attack.I know that the cap was around 19k but you still wouldn't convert your clear time much lower,nothing close to under 3 min25 w/o no performance booster.You gained the uncap,but you also lost the combo booster.The bosses defense have also been increased.

    The videos i posted about Hammer are referances for those who wants to improve using that weapon,because they are not easy to find and people tend to create the beleif that the weapon as no potential.My very 1st character was actully Fiona and i played her on both weapons for a long time.I stopped after the 1st sheild enhancement patch because it felt incomplete.So i still undertand her core mechanisms and timings.

    A slashing high butterfly combo is not complete,it is not what will give you a superior level of performance point blank.Your not following a specific rotation,your improvising and trying to fit the most optimal attacks depending on what is happening.

    Other than that it's nothing personal,i also enjoy your videos but there we have a differant opinion about Hammer that's it.

    Quick edit

    That's who i was checking as referance back than when Fiona was a complete differant story.You had to take every little opportunity to damage and manage stamina,shield breaking as well



    That's just one video but he has many others,with Lage Shield and Longsword as well.There was also a time where you could not even block smashes with Guard,you had to heavy stander them.You really had to plan your things well back than and react very quickly,so i recognize easely when someone plays in a linear way versus an improvised way.
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    edited June 12, 2017
    Leucosie wrote: »


    Anyway, I honestly think we should stop it right there, that thread has already been kinda off-topic for some time. Everyone knows hammer is weaker than LS because it is so obvious after having played both weapons except to you for some reason.


    You should have leuco. Because he is obviously not among the players who played both weapons.

  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    edited June 12, 2017
    funny you posted that zecallion hammer fiona solo. That one was really really slow. even much slower than mine. (he's only faster because uncap and damage pot which I never used)

    But I'm not surprised that you didn't realize he wasn't even close to hit the best record. Because you personally don't even have ap invested in Hammer skills.

    I really sincerely suggest you to play a char before judging any other players.



  • JessGameJessGame
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    Samalenko wrote: »
    funny you posted that zecallion hammer fiona solo. That one was really really slow. even much slower than mine. (he's only faster because uncap and damage pot which I never used)

    But I'm not surprised that you didn't realize he wasn't even close to hit the best record. Because you personally don't even have ap invested in Hammer skills.

    I really sincerely suggest you to play a char before judging any other players.



    Your's is not better by any mean and your weapon is more powerful in Nilf than his,since you guys both crit cap.You have more additional damage and lot more speed,so much more leverage in term of openings.He's also using a regular Cat Statue while your using the superior Paw.

    When the actual fight started you had already as much SP as he had but he is using an SP artifact and you are using a speed artifact.There is the same amount of mobs on both versions...

    Also there was no relevance to the comparison since we are talking about Hammer vs Sword.Not sure about what is the real reason behind some of your posts.
  • LeucosieLeucosie
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    JessGame wrote: »
    Other than that it's nothing personal,i also enjoy your videos but there we have a differant opinion about Hammer that's it.

    I know it's ok forums are here for us to discuss about stuff ^^
    JessGame wrote: »
    Any Zecallion Solo that is significantly under the 4:28 clear done by this Hammer,involves the usage of stims/peformance enhancers,damage pots or special items that puts them over 34k attack.I know that the cap was around 19k but you still wouldn't convert your clear time much lower,nothing close to under 3 min25 w/o no performance booster.You gained the uncap,but you also lost the combo booster.The bosses defense have also been increased.

    Lol yea about that hammer fiona solo. Don't let yourself be fooled, I kinda didn't notice it at first but the guy is actually using a hidden damage pot ( now those useless buffs icons he has should make sense to you ). I spotted it ( and samalenko first in his last post ) by looking at those 2 deflect buffed crit focal points ( there is one at about 1:44 in the solo video ). They hit 37k+, a number I'm miles away from reaching even tough I'm sitting on 30k base att which is higher than his att ( my crit buffed focal points cap at around 30.5k ). It makes that solo even worse for comparison purpose all the more since you clearly underestimate the effects of removing att cap on bosses. But since you kinda asked for it, I run some zecas in order to try to get a decent clear time ( which could have been slightly better had I had a more favorable run ). My run is ofc unbuffed and i run it with my current stats ( exactly 30k att / 90 speed ). If after watching this you still believe that hammer fiona can destroy bosses on solo play as longsword fiona does, then idk what else I can do.



  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited June 12, 2017
    Leucosie wrote: »
    JessGame wrote: »
    Other than that it's nothing personal,i also enjoy your videos but there we have a differant opinion about Hammer that's it.

    I know it's ok forums are here for us to discuss about stuff ^^
    JessGame wrote: »
    Any Zecallion Solo that is significantly under the 4:28 clear done by this Hammer,involves the usage of stims/peformance enhancers,damage pots or special items that puts them over 34k attack.I know that the cap was around 19k but you still wouldn't convert your clear time much lower,nothing close to under 3 min25 w/o no performance booster.You gained the uncap,but you also lost the combo booster.The bosses defense have also been increased.

    Lol yea about that hammer fiona solo. Don't let yourself be fooled, I kinda didn't notice it at first but the guy is actually using a hidden damage pot ( now those useless buffs icons he has should make sense to you ). I spotted it ( and samalenko first in his last post ) by looking at those 2 deflect buffed crit focal points ( there is one at about 1:44 in the solo video ). They hit 37k+, a number I'm miles away from reaching even tough I'm sitting on 30k base att which is higher than his att ( my crit buffed focal points cap at around 30.5k ). It makes that solo even worse for comparison purpose all the more since you clearly underestimate the effects of removing att cap on bosses. But since you kinda asked for it, I run some zecas in order to try to get a decent clear time ( which could have been slightly better had I had a more favorable run ). My run is ofc unbuffed and i run it with my current stats ( exactly 30k att / 90 speed ). If after watching this you still believe that hammer fiona can destroy bosses on solo play as longsword fiona does, then idk what else I can do.



    It was to be expected that one of you guys post a video **with massively superior stats**,but while you point out the underestimation of attack cap removal,you are yourself underestimating the differance between 27,7 k attack and 30k attack on an uncap run as well as the 16 attack speed gap between the Hammer user and your character.Speed acts in an expodantial way on characters with speed booster and your using a Greater Werewolf Paw on top of this while he is using a regular Cat Statue.In term of Arsenal,you are way ahead of him,that's not even comparable.

    As if you would expect another Sword Fiona with 27,7k and 73 attack speed(+14 weapon) using a Cat Statue to beat your 30k Fiona(+15 weapon) in a 3-4 minutes duo run...Or even come close in that regard

    It does not compare at all,if you want to design a comparison lower your stats and you will realize the differance.In term of hitting power,speed artifact boost your character is at advantage by miles.All of those makes up for the damage pot.

    Lastly,your previous Zecallion Solo was not displaying your Attack value.At 27-28k i still stand that your are not getting a clear under 3:25m
  • LeucosieLeucosie
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    I'm done ^^
  • MarronGlacesMarronGlaces
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    edited June 17, 2017
    This is like deja vu from when he kept arguing that regular fish tail poles was the best DPS for Lynn and that killer dart and smash 4 was sub optimal.

    On topic. I think hammer would need a clean slate. Design-wise, hammer has to pepper the boss with multiple smashes when her original design was single stronger hits. Swords and hammer almost feel reversed in implementation compared to how they had originally planned.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    This is like deja vu from when he kept arguing that regular fish tail poles was the best DPS for Lynn and that killer dart and smash 4 was sub optimal.

    On topic. I think hammer would need a clean slate. Design-wise, hammer has to pepper the boss with multiple smashes when her original design was single stronger hits. Swords and hammer almost feel reversed in implementation compared to how they had originally planned.

    I remember that discussion.*In breif*,i was saying that Fishtail had a good utility in tight situations.It was especially for people who taught that you had to use Flying Guillotine 100% of the time...even when you already had 8-9 dots stacked.Some of them having relatively low speed,they would end up spending 3x the necessary time to detonate a stack and they would end up in a situation where the stamina would hit 0.I was basically encouraging the usage of the overall tools instead of spamming KD into Guillotine *even when the window was too short to use it*. I was also talking about using Long Armed Devil and the other SP moves(put them on the tool slot as least not on the skill wheel on the far right).In sum,design the fastest and safest way to get a 10 stack and use it.


    A lot of other points where discussed in that thread as well such as her stamina that was *supposedly* un-managable.At least get the statement right,nobody has discussed anything like you posted up there,it clearly doesn't make sense.
  • MarronGlacesMarronGlaces
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    edited June 19, 2017
    JessGame wrote: »
    it clearly doesn't make sense.

    Yep, probably what most in that thread was thinking.
    And no, I'm pretty sure that was it. I agreed with you that people should choose which smash would fit. A lot of people there were saying they can fit smash 4 into most openings because they had the speed to support it.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    JessGame wrote: »
    it clearly doesn't make sense.

    Yep, probably what most in that thread was thinking.
    And no, I'm pretty sure that was it. I agreed with you that people should choose which smash would fit. A lot of people there were saying they can fit smash 4 into most openings because they had the speed to support it.

    Well i meant your inacurate quote wasn't making sense and so the one you just did.The way you put it is such an amplification,that's not even close to what was discussed.Regular Fishtail would imply to smash 10 times before being able to pop a stack,so you loose time and hit power at the same time.At least if you're going to transform a conversation,stay credible.In *most* cases,why would you choose a weaker smash if you have all the time to land the stronger one.80 attack speed or 40 or 20,you won't be able to spam Flying Guillotine all the time.Most of the time would be optimal,but you will have to use Fishtail as well...you can't even get to 10 using Guillotine only,unless you never buff your smashes and in that case you'd need 5 combos to pop a stack.

    In most situations if you can get to 8 swifts in 2 combos,you only need a buffed Fishatail to complete.Quicker,safer and you pass to the next stack.

    If you have an empty spot to fit a rectangle,you fit a rectangle,not a triangle.There is different tools to use and they need to be used at specific times,im not sure what you're trying to argue here,it's simple common sense.

    Also,If you want to twist things about Lynn try the Lynn section.
  • MarronGlacesMarronGlaces
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    edited June 20, 2017
    JessGame wrote: »
    -snip-

    Yep. Pretty much what everyone was saying (well what I was anyway). I'm glad you finally got it.
    And not really, no. I was just laughing at how it was looking like that thread. I've stopped caring about whether you get it or not.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    JessGame wrote: »
    -snip-

    Yep. Pretty much what everyone was saying (well what I was anyway). I'm glad you finally got it.
    And not really, no. I was just laughing at how it was looking like that thread. I've stopped caring about whether you get it or not.

    Well it's not what you or people where saying,it's what you came up with,wich is differant from what was being said at the time.In the end it's up to you.If you want to talk about a thread on the old forums wich we no longer have access to and change the facts have fun with it,it's not going to come in handy anyhow ecxept maybe fill some of your empty time?Good management of your energy,i like that.You can probably read some discussions on the new forums to see if i tend to propose a single method of dps,if reading and understanding is something you can actully do.From your replies i kind of doubt it at that point.

    Either that or you have a memory leak wich in that case i can only be trully be sorry for yourself.
  • MarronGlacesMarronGlaces
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    edited June 21, 2017
    Hahaha, resorting to insults.
    Memory leak huh? 'I can land FGs almost exclusively because I have the speed and using FP is suboptimal' vs 'I can't use FG most of the time because I don't have speed FP is better for me but I will forget to state the fact I have sub 30 speed until well into the argument' in a thread that's discussing Lynn at end game and the premise being that if she can't pull out FGs, she's not doing enough DPS to be comparable to other top classes.

    Feel free to post after this so you can get your last word in edge-wise.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    Hahaha, resorting to insults.
    Memory leak huh? 'I can land FGs almost exclusively because I have the speed and using FP is suboptimal' vs 'I can't use FG most of the time because I don't have speed FP is better for me but I will forget to state the fact I have sub 30 speed until well into the argument' in a thread that's discussing Lynn at end game and the premise being that if she can't pull out FGs, she's not doing enough DPS to be comparable to other top classes.

    Feel free to post after this so you can get your last word in edge-wise.

    Its not insults,it's just that you have been literally changing my words on every single replies i have made,even on the older thread.At a certain point it gets confusing as if you are debating or kidding around.

    There is bosses indeed who won't allow you to use FG all the time yes and i have already post about that long ago,so from there i don't know what you are thinking.I mean you can go and try to Flying Guillotine Lionotus on hero mode when Verafim still has his scythe....Start a Guillotine combo when Lakoria is about to go underground,just to see your smash hit the air,so many other examples no matter what speed you have...Do you even use Long Armed Devil,ect.

    It's just simple common sense,prioritizing your stronger smashes,but also fitting what is best on the moment wich depends on your speed,the boss attacks,the context as well.

    You can see if he uses Guillotine all the time or if he simply adjust to what he needs



    Even with higher speed,you still have to use all of your tools.I don't understand what you can't see here^ or what you couldn't see before.I don't mind arguing on something,but don't *make* things up,i find it low.If it's not that,than you might have forgotten some details,these things happen.
  • MarronGlacesMarronGlaces
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    edited June 21, 2017
    JessGame wrote: »
    -snip-

    I'll spell it out for you.
    You argued about FP being better for you and KD+FG being sub optimal but you forgot to say you had sub 30 speed until much later into the thread. I remember going in to Muir and comparing runs where I played normally with FGs and just a run with solely FPs, lmao.
    For a big part of the thread, it was indeed as I have mentioned above. Even when you already corrected it, it was way too late and people have already formed your argument as the former.

    Also, like I said, I do not care at all to discuss about Lynn. Where the game and I are going, it doesn't matter.
    And like I said, I'm just laughing at how this parallels to the other thread.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited June 21, 2017
    JessGame wrote: »
    -snip-

    I'll spell it out for you.
    You argued about FP being better for you and KD+FG being sub optimal but you forgot to say you had sub 30 speed until much later into the thread. I remember going in to Muir and comparing runs where I played normally with FGs and just a run with solely FPs, lmao.
    For a big part of the thread, it was indeed as I have mentioned above. Even when you already corrected it, it was way too late and people have already formed your argument as the former.

    Also, like I said, I do not care at all to discuss about Lynn. Where the game and I are going, it doesn't matter.
    And like I said, I'm just laughing at how this parallels to the other thread.

    I see.The situation is parallel indeed,in the sense that you keep trying to change what is being said and instead of proposing actual techniques,you're only making stuff up and having fun out of this(Isn't that trolling around?)Don't want you to pull the insult card,not what im trying to do,but an apple is an apple).Not everybody plays Lynn in an optimal way,she can be more tricky than other characters and appraently you had a linear way of playing her wich was giving you unsatisfying results.

    Your agument since the beggining as pretty much been that the character is weak because she can't use her Guillotine frequently enough...It implies that you where not able to use her other tools wich you do have to use.However while you keep making up the same lies,many Lynn users have improved and developp a lot.

    It's pretty much what you portrait when you throw unsophisticated replies.It's the information you give that makes it bothering more than anything.*I can't use Flying Guillotine at my level of speed properly,therefore it's not worth trying to use all of the available tools she has and so anyone else should view her as very weak because i can't do it*.
    I call that ego.

    Alternative where proposed,videos from other lynns doing good where showed,but the ego was struck and the lies began.So now your taking an opportunity to troll around once again because you still think about an old thread in wich your opinion happened to be incorrect.Everybody is incorrect at some point.When you make things up just to convince yourself that it's not...Well...Very good attitude.
    Also you dont need to have 80 attack speed to understand when you have the time to do something or not.You can just watch a video and observe.

    1st thing i did after spending 6 months not touching a computer,was rusty like no tomorrow and had no Berserker scroll on.You can see 35 attack speed @4:40...im not sure if sub 30 means under 30:

    (2 years and half ago)



    If it does,well it doesn't change the fact that even with 60-70 attack speed,you would have to use other things than Flying Guillotine throughout all the game.Check the Neam video if you want to see if they use FG all the time.Check other good videos outside of Neam to see as well,or don't admit and keep trolling,spreading mis-information and don't let newer players who are looking for info to get a more complete idea of how they can interact when they can't use FG.


  • MarronGlacesMarronGlaces
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    edited June 21, 2017
    JessGame wrote: »
    Still missing the point, the post.

    My goodness, this is like talking to political or religious fanatics.
    Whatever, if you still can't tell what I'm trying to say after spelling it out for you, well...
    JessGame wrote: »
    i can only be trully be sorry for yourself.

    Also here's a question to think about. Have you ever seen a Lynn do 25+% in Neam in a full 50+ minute run pre-Rise? How about Scythe? Cestus? Hurk? Staff? Gun? Bow? Arisha? Hagie? Longsword? Chains?
    I guess doing a solid 50-100% less than almost half the classes in the game isn't weak, huh.

    Have a nice day, again feel free to get your last word in edge-wise. I won't make the same mistake again. : )