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It doesn't change the fact that RISE have made game easy. It boasted with increasing playerbase and game performance. What I found was just a huge disappointment and it continued with each update and event after.
From more skill based gameplay it went to gear based gameplay -> thus making game more grindy than fun (that's my opinion)
But this makes them more money (probably) so they choose to follow standard grindy mmo style...
Considering that it pushed well known content creators completely out of the game and had some of them tossing their +15s out of their inventory before doing so in KR, I don't think Rise has been a net gain in any region. The outcry on the forums, the population drops, and the need to carry out server mergers say that it certainly wasn't profitable in terms of player numbers or dollars for NA/EU/AUS. I know that if there's not a good event going on I don't bother logging in anymore, and I used to get on regularly for nothing else than to catch up to friends and get in a few raids just for kicks, or help lowbies out.
While Rise might help rush people to the end, once they get there and see that on top of a sudden need to grind the population really isn't all that great I doubt it's doing much to retain new players.
Augment your gear to make your beloved s1/s2 runs 10 minutes long instead of wearing your endgame gear, simple as that.
Change to hero mode as well to augment their HP reminiscent to prerise stat.
MMO these days have to compete with mobile games, that's why they can't force the players to sit through 20 minutes waiting for boats to fill + the actual run.
The time spent idling would've already turned players away from the game.
i was just saying that while rise was overall received negatively to the so called 'vets' nothing we say will really change what happens and it's better to look at the positives than to stay in the past because it's not coming back.
The only really negative thing from rise imo was the over dependence on additional damage to do well in lategame as bosses were made into hp blobs to compensate for increasing everyones add dmg by 10x.
@noctred
As I said results are quite clear. We can have different opinions.
Someone say RISE was a nice change while other ppl say it wasn't at all.
What really matter are the true facts. Worldwide complains and playerbase decreased a lot more than before, Server merges.
Some vets even forced to quit cause the bad changes. NA staff cut out probably cause not enough revenues.
All these stuff are players fault cause they dont' play? I dont' think so.. if a game is dead is not necessarely cause it's too old, it's most probably cause who own the game isn't able/not care to make it attractive or keep doing bad choices trying to give priority to increase the revenues ditching the quality of the game. But guess what? I dont' think is going exactly how they planned.
I don't say RISE have 10/10 bad aspects. In the previous post i said that "the few improvements doesn't stand with the bad sides".
For example i like the fact i can talk to npcs from wherever i'm without walking for miles when following the story or other small changes which are indeed appreciated, but that's not the main part. The core of the game is mostly broken.
@Vladino
I dont' know how some ppl can say rise brought more players... I hope you don't think that seeing a qb party filling fast cause is 'handy' mean that there're thousand ppl playing the game... Whatever if you're a lonewolf or have a guild you surely noticed the drastic change.
Tbh the 'fall' started after the migration but with RISE it reached the bottom.
@Enigmataro
I read your suggestion but it's quite silly to even comment it... Why I should go naked or with crap gear in a raid that was OK till some time ago just to last longer as a "desperate solution" when it could be simple split into several difficulties like it was before or hp party scaled and give them decent drops to make it useful and enjoyable?
Also i guess you read only what you like skipping the most important part. I said that giving the chance, for example, to have the scaled hp or the 4 - 8 ppl party would lead to different solutions. Whoever don't like to wait can simply solo the raid( with the hp scaled x 1 player) or choose the 4ppl run.
Nobody said to put back 'only' the 8 man raids removing the solo/4ppl runs. That would be stupid.
The best games out there are those which give more 'freedom'.
Vindictus alwasy had its limits about freedom compared to other games but cutting out even on those options/raids/dungeons/content/features that made the game enjoyable for long time it's like skinning out the whole game of those few strong points the game have. Only the bone is left now.
I'm aware like someone said that nothing of what we say here will change anything, firstly because is Nexon KR who decide anything, and they showed already to not listen the players feedback on the 90% of cases.
Same as i think the suggestion feedback section on this site could even be removed cause i never seen any suggestion being read and applied. (Only once or twice they followed the suggestions and ONLY when it was about SALE/RESALE something).
All the rest is plain ignored, and probably never been forwarded to Nexon KR in any way.
It's a forum... and it's made to discuss topics, possibly in a constructive way. Sharing opinions and reading others isn't wrong or useless.
Even if things might not change it worth to be discussed.
There's nothing to say that the current population is any lower than what it was pre-Rise aside from anecdotal accounts of random players. The population in Vindi has always followed a consistent curve - the same people come back for events and new content releases, the population spikes for 3-4 weeks, the same people quit and the population drops back down to a more familiar level.
When I last quit Vindi a few months before the release of S3, the game felt considerably more desolate than it does now - but again, that's just an anecdotal account of a random player.
Server merges were requested and needed way before Rise was ever on the radar, so that's neither here nor there. The fact that the merges didn't happen till after Rise says less about Rise and more about Nexon's inability to understand what the game needs until it's too late (a common occurrence for Nexon).
--
The bottom line for me is pretty simple - this game still has enough players to fill boats at most times of the day/night without having to mega (exceptions being nifl, neam, and RAR) and the market is still decent enough that you can usually find what you want. On top of that, the systems changes and QoL changes from Rise made the game more enjoyable from a gameplay perspective. The loss of 8 man raids is regrettable but I can deal with it. Additional damage changes were batshit retarded but it is what it is. The irrelevance of S1 and S2 content is, IMO, a standard function of content progression in theme park games so, to me, that's not a huge loss. Overall, to my tastes, the changes amount to a net positive and I'm currently enjoying the game.
The game being dead isn't a function of Rise. The game was dead before Rise and would still be dead if Rise had never happened. This is because Nexon doesn't give enough of a **** about the game to manage it properly, as is the case for many of their games.
Trust me, if you really wanted to trace Vindi's timeline back to the point where it started going downhill and every major mistake thereafter, you'll find that many of those bullet points fall before Rise, not after. Anybody remember when the entire game would break every hour, on the hour with no fix in sight for months? Quality.
I know steam Charts don't tell everything. But just for folks that do want what numbers we can get:
Merge time was last year Nov. If I remember right Rise was July 2017. Each Peak is usually just content. Aes (Jan) and arcana (April) aren't giving much of a peak.
EU only got access to steam in the merge. Very bad graph with not much to go on.
What is bad about it? It is the only #s we have, shows that at least via steam the last year and a half seem to be flat, but far from the average that S2 was getting.
What is bad about it? It is the only #s we have, shows that at least via steam the last year and a half seem to be flat, but far from the average that S2 was getting.
It also shows that the average population pre-Rise was about as low as it is post-Rise, if not lower. If anything, it depicts the slow decline of the game leading up to Rise, which I guess is kinda the point I've been trying to make.
Regardless, Steam is a very incomplete metric - a fact of which I'm sure you're aware.
There's nothing to say that the current population is any lower than what it was pre-Rise aside from anecdotal accounts of random players. The population in Vindi has always followed a consistent curve - the same people come back for events and new content releases, the population spikes for 3-4 weeks, the same people quit and the population drops back down to a more familiar level.
When I last quit Vindi a few months before the release of S3, the game felt considerably more desolate than it does now - but again, that's just an anecdotal account of a random player.
Server merges were requested and needed way before Rise was ever on the radar, so that's neither here nor there. The fact that the merges didn't happen till after Rise says less about Rise and more about Nexon's inability to understand what the game needs until it's too late (a common occurrence for Nexon).
--
The bottom line for me is pretty simple - this game still has enough players to fill boats at most times of the day/night without having to mega (exceptions being nifl, neam, and RAR) and the market is still decent enough that you can usually find what you want. On top of that, the systems changes and QoL changes from Rise made the game more enjoyable from a gameplay perspective. The loss of 8 man raids is regrettable but I can deal with it. Additional damage changes were batshit retarded but I don't get salty about decked out people outdamaging me so it's whatever. The irrelevance of S1 and S2 content is, IMO, a standard function of content progression in theme park games so, to me, that's not a huge loss. Overall, to my tastes, the changes amount to a net positive and I'm currently enjoying the game.
The game being dead isn't a function of Rise. The game was dead before Rise and would still be dead if Rise had never happened. This is because Nexon doesn't give enough of a **** about the game to manage it properly, as is the case for many of their games.
Trust me, if you really wanted to trace Vindi's timeline back to the point where it started going downhill and every major mistake thereafter, you'll find that many of those bullet points fall before Rise, not after. Anybody remember when the entire game would break every hour, on the hour with no fix in sight for months? Quality.
I've been here since beta and the population is definitely smaller. Yes, the game was in a downward spiral before RISE but look at it this way. They had to combine 3 servers to equal the population EAST had just before the RISE update. We're not saying there weren't some good changes with the RISE update. They made many necessary improvements with RISE but the big complaint is that they ruined the game play by nerfing most of the content. That wasn't necessary. They could have made the "quality of life" changes without taking away the difficulty . That is the point most of us are trying to make and imo it was a net loss.
Oh and by the way, the reason boats fill quickly is because they added QB with boat notification. That's the main reason why ppl no longer have to use megas to fill boats. Can you imagine if the game had this update 4 years ago? It might have saved the game... LOL.
Even if you think RISE didn't cause decrease of playerbase it showed us where the game is heading -> less content (but quality isn't any better), gearbased, more gacha boxes, events that doesn't rly reward player, less free stuff (we used to get new gear with every boss), longer time between updates, less options, less teamplay, less special actions (where did karok x delia combo went with new updates?), forcing annaoying mechanics to prolong battles (dullahan insta shield after 8th bar), less bugfixes. What improved? Hmm... shorter w8 times and battes?
Overall quality went down... As a free game it's still good...
And for anyone telling others to go without gear to increase difficulty-> it's multiplayer game so it would bother other party members (i don't prefer solo, for solo there are better single player games). The game is still about improving your skill and gear so if bosses are too easy that means you have nothing more to do.
They made many necessary improvements with RISE but the big complaint is that they ruined the game play by nerfing most of the content.
Again - they didn't nerf most of the content. They streamlined progression into the current content cycle. There's a difference here that I feel people aren't grasping. The game isn't healthy enough (and there isn't enough time in the day for the average player) to sustain both S2 and S3 as a means of relevant endgame progression.
I will, again, concede that they should have left classic S1/S2 difficulty and 8 man boats as options for people who still want to do those raids for fun - but tying relevant progression to them at this stage in the game's life would have been a detriment.
I will also concede that the enhancement changes and additional damage changes indirectly nerfed current content for decked out players. At a certain point, gear outscales S3 bosses to the point that even some S3 raids are done in under a minute unless you solo them. This is bad but it generally isn't the experience of the average player as the gear required is beyond difficult to attain unless you whale out to unhealthy extremes or get omega lucky. Nevertheless, this was far and away the worst thing that came with Rise.
Can you imagine if the game had this update 4 years ago? It might have saved the game... LOL.
RIght, that's what I've said multiple times in this thread. The problem with Rise was less its changes and more the fact that it came at a point when the game was already limping along on broken legs, heavily facilitating the need to concentrate the remaining population and missing the opportunity to capture the audience it was clearly developed for.
I know steam Charts don't tell everything. But just for folks that do want what numbers we can get:
Merge time was last year Nov. If I remember right Rise was July 2017. Each Peak is usually just content. Aes (Jan) and arcana (April) aren't giving much of a peak.
Just to quickly post my pov as a returning/new player that got his account deleted with the merge and maybe hasnt grasped the game 100% (again)
i am playing solo most of the time because there are not enough new players in this game that are leveling. i think the fast progression in S1 and S2 is fine. you fly through the levels and its slowly getting harder. you can max a character on 2 to 3 days after work. this way i can try more character on a higher level without wasting weeks before deciding its not for me. i mean i dont know if i would have started a second character after deciding miri was too boring for me to play, when it would have taken weeks to max her. so for me and probably for a lot of new/returning players its a plus.
now i hear that s3 content is going to be challenging and as far as i progressed there thats the case. you have to be more carefull and know how to play your character to some higher extent than S2.5. I am still making a lot of mistakes and can improve on those so for me the game is still fun and a bit challenging, but not frustrating. with ein lacher i even have a place where i can challenge myself even more, so thats great.
i understand that especially when heavily geared and a veteran of many years in this game, it is getting too easy and i think that this will be a problem for me in the future too. but that doesnt mean rise did everything bad didnt it? it would just mean, that they have to create more difficult versions of the bosses (faster/more hp/ whatever) that have a higher chance to drop valuable stuff or not?
sorry for stepping on toes with my lack of knowledge but i just wanted to share what i, as a new/returning player, feel/think about the game.
i understand that especially when heavily geared and a veteran of many years in this game, it is getting too easy and i think that this will be a problem for me in the future too. but that doesnt mean rise did everything bad didnt it? it would just mean, that they have to create more difficult versions of the bosses (faster/more hp/ whatever) that have a higher chance to drop valuable stuff or not?
To add to your point here. They did kinda do this to some extent in the special raids(lv90) where some of the old raid/dungeon bosses were given s3 level stats and fought as a pair and they drop lv95 essence and scrolls and the pair that is featured rotates weekly. Not sure why they stopped doing new versions of this though i thought it was a great way to bring back old bosses at their full strength while making them relevant for vets players to do and they don't overload on the raid schedule because it rotates weekly and its literally recycled content so it can't be too hard to implement.
I know steam Charts don't tell everything. But just for folks that do want what numbers we can get:
Merge time was last year Nov. If I remember right Rise was July 2017. Each Peak is usually just content. Aes (Jan) and arcana (April) aren't giving much of a peak.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't that chart only representative of people who log in through steam? Plenty of players log in with the nexon launcher. I guess it still shows declining population over years lul.
I don't know why people want to pretend like the population is remotely good simply because we don't have hard numbers one way or another. When S3 launched we didn't need accurate daily counts to see that boats were flooded, the market was full of items, megas were constantly popping, and the forums constantly had active discussion and for sale threads. It's the exact opposite now in every way.
There are all of two +12 or higher 95 weaps on the MP. The For Sale section is dead, averaging about 1.5 posts a day for some time now. Some of the Character forums haven't had a single post in two months. Off-topic is dead. You could count megas in the game and very nearly time something in the oven or on the stove without having to worry about it burning. Some of the former most active guilds are nearly dead. Even those who kept us regularly updated on KR hardly bother keeping us informed anymore.
You wouldn't need an exact count if you ran a business somewhere and saw by observation that clientele in the general area continued drying up. The context clues tell a very clear story as to the state of the NA/AUS server, and I doubt that EU is much better.
Comments
Considering that it pushed well known content creators completely out of the game and had some of them tossing their +15s out of their inventory before doing so in KR, I don't think Rise has been a net gain in any region. The outcry on the forums, the population drops, and the need to carry out server mergers say that it certainly wasn't profitable in terms of player numbers or dollars for NA/EU/AUS. I know that if there's not a good event going on I don't bother logging in anymore, and I used to get on regularly for nothing else than to catch up to friends and get in a few raids just for kicks, or help lowbies out.
While Rise might help rush people to the end, once they get there and see that on top of a sudden need to grind the population really isn't all that great I doubt it's doing much to retain new players.
http://www.gamemeca.com/popup/ranking.php?scode=O
Mabinogi Heroes isn't even in the Top 50 in KR currently, and I doubt it's doing better in Japan or China either.
Change to hero mode as well to augment their HP reminiscent to prerise stat.
MMO these days have to compete with mobile games, that's why they can't force the players to sit through 20 minutes waiting for boats to fill + the actual run.
The time spent idling would've already turned players away from the game.
The only really negative thing from rise imo was the over dependence on additional damage to do well in lategame as bosses were made into hp blobs to compensate for increasing everyones add dmg by 10x.
As I said results are quite clear. We can have different opinions.
Someone say RISE was a nice change while other ppl say it wasn't at all.
What really matter are the true facts. Worldwide complains and playerbase decreased a lot more than before, Server merges.
Some vets even forced to quit cause the bad changes. NA staff cut out probably cause not enough revenues.
All these stuff are players fault cause they dont' play? I dont' think so.. if a game is dead is not necessarely cause it's too old, it's most probably cause who own the game isn't able/not care to make it attractive or keep doing bad choices trying to give priority to increase the revenues ditching the quality of the game. But guess what? I dont' think is going exactly how they planned.
I don't say RISE have 10/10 bad aspects. In the previous post i said that "the few improvements doesn't stand with the bad sides".
For example i like the fact i can talk to npcs from wherever i'm without walking for miles when following the story or other small changes which are indeed appreciated, but that's not the main part. The core of the game is mostly broken.
@Vladino
I dont' know how some ppl can say rise brought more players... I hope you don't think that seeing a qb party filling fast cause is 'handy' mean that there're thousand ppl playing the game... Whatever if you're a lonewolf or have a guild you surely noticed the drastic change.
Tbh the 'fall' started after the migration but with RISE it reached the bottom.
@Enigmataro
I read your suggestion but it's quite silly to even comment it... Why I should go naked or with crap gear in a raid that was OK till some time ago just to last longer as a "desperate solution" when it could be simple split into several difficulties like it was before or hp party scaled and give them decent drops to make it useful and enjoyable?
Also i guess you read only what you like skipping the most important part. I said that giving the chance, for example, to have the scaled hp or the 4 - 8 ppl party would lead to different solutions. Whoever don't like to wait can simply solo the raid( with the hp scaled x 1 player) or choose the 4ppl run.
Nobody said to put back 'only' the 8 man raids removing the solo/4ppl runs. That would be stupid.
The best games out there are those which give more 'freedom'.
Vindictus alwasy had its limits about freedom compared to other games but cutting out even on those options/raids/dungeons/content/features that made the game enjoyable for long time it's like skinning out the whole game of those few strong points the game have. Only the bone is left now.
I'm aware like someone said that nothing of what we say here will change anything, firstly because is Nexon KR who decide anything, and they showed already to not listen the players feedback on the 90% of cases.
Same as i think the suggestion feedback section on this site could even be removed cause i never seen any suggestion being read and applied. (Only once or twice they followed the suggestions and ONLY when it was about SALE/RESALE something).
All the rest is plain ignored, and probably never been forwarded to Nexon KR in any way.
It's a forum... and it's made to discuss topics, possibly in a constructive way. Sharing opinions and reading others isn't wrong or useless.
Even if things might not change it worth to be discussed.
There's nothing to say that the current population is any lower than what it was pre-Rise aside from anecdotal accounts of random players. The population in Vindi has always followed a consistent curve - the same people come back for events and new content releases, the population spikes for 3-4 weeks, the same people quit and the population drops back down to a more familiar level.
When I last quit Vindi a few months before the release of S3, the game felt considerably more desolate than it does now - but again, that's just an anecdotal account of a random player.
Server merges were requested and needed way before Rise was ever on the radar, so that's neither here nor there. The fact that the merges didn't happen till after Rise says less about Rise and more about Nexon's inability to understand what the game needs until it's too late (a common occurrence for Nexon).
--
The bottom line for me is pretty simple - this game still has enough players to fill boats at most times of the day/night without having to mega (exceptions being nifl, neam, and RAR) and the market is still decent enough that you can usually find what you want. On top of that, the systems changes and QoL changes from Rise made the game more enjoyable from a gameplay perspective. The loss of 8 man raids is regrettable but I can deal with it. Additional damage changes were batshit retarded but it is what it is. The irrelevance of S1 and S2 content is, IMO, a standard function of content progression in theme park games so, to me, that's not a huge loss. Overall, to my tastes, the changes amount to a net positive and I'm currently enjoying the game.
The game being dead isn't a function of Rise. The game was dead before Rise and would still be dead if Rise had never happened. This is because Nexon doesn't give enough of a **** about the game to manage it properly, as is the case for many of their games.
Trust me, if you really wanted to trace Vindi's timeline back to the point where it started going downhill and every major mistake thereafter, you'll find that many of those bullet points fall before Rise, not after. Anybody remember when the entire game would break every hour, on the hour with no fix in sight for months? Quality.
Merge time was last year Nov. If I remember right Rise was July 2017. Each Peak is usually just content. Aes (Jan) and arcana (April) aren't giving much of a peak.
What is bad about it? It is the only #s we have, shows that at least via steam the last year and a half seem to be flat, but far from the average that S2 was getting.
It also shows that the average population pre-Rise was about as low as it is post-Rise, if not lower. If anything, it depicts the slow decline of the game leading up to Rise, which I guess is kinda the point I've been trying to make.
Regardless, Steam is a very incomplete metric - a fact of which I'm sure you're aware.
I've been here since beta and the population is definitely smaller. Yes, the game was in a downward spiral before RISE but look at it this way. They had to combine 3 servers to equal the population EAST had just before the RISE update. We're not saying there weren't some good changes with the RISE update. They made many necessary improvements with RISE but the big complaint is that they ruined the game play by nerfing most of the content. That wasn't necessary. They could have made the "quality of life" changes without taking away the difficulty . That is the point most of us are trying to make and imo it was a net loss.
Overall quality went down... As a free game it's still good...
And for anyone telling others to go without gear to increase difficulty-> it's multiplayer game so it would bother other party members (i don't prefer solo, for solo there are better single player games). The game is still about improving your skill and gear so if bosses are too easy that means you have nothing more to do.
Again - they didn't nerf most of the content. They streamlined progression into the current content cycle. There's a difference here that I feel people aren't grasping. The game isn't healthy enough (and there isn't enough time in the day for the average player) to sustain both S2 and S3 as a means of relevant endgame progression.
I will, again, concede that they should have left classic S1/S2 difficulty and 8 man boats as options for people who still want to do those raids for fun - but tying relevant progression to them at this stage in the game's life would have been a detriment.
I will also concede that the enhancement changes and additional damage changes indirectly nerfed current content for decked out players. At a certain point, gear outscales S3 bosses to the point that even some S3 raids are done in under a minute unless you solo them. This is bad but it generally isn't the experience of the average player as the gear required is beyond difficult to attain unless you whale out to unhealthy extremes or get omega lucky. Nevertheless, this was far and away the worst thing that came with Rise.
RIght, that's what I've said multiple times in this thread. The problem with Rise was less its changes and more the fact that it came at a point when the game was already limping along on broken legs, heavily facilitating the need to concentrate the remaining population and missing the opportunity to capture the audience it was clearly developed for.
http://steamcharts.com/app/212160
http://steamcharts.com/app/582660
They tell enough.........
Merge Vindictus into bdo when?
i am playing solo most of the time because there are not enough new players in this game that are leveling. i think the fast progression in S1 and S2 is fine. you fly through the levels and its slowly getting harder. you can max a character on 2 to 3 days after work. this way i can try more character on a higher level without wasting weeks before deciding its not for me. i mean i dont know if i would have started a second character after deciding miri was too boring for me to play, when it would have taken weeks to max her. so for me and probably for a lot of new/returning players its a plus.
now i hear that s3 content is going to be challenging and as far as i progressed there thats the case. you have to be more carefull and know how to play your character to some higher extent than S2.5. I am still making a lot of mistakes and can improve on those so for me the game is still fun and a bit challenging, but not frustrating. with ein lacher i even have a place where i can challenge myself even more, so thats great.
i understand that especially when heavily geared and a veteran of many years in this game, it is getting too easy and i think that this will be a problem for me in the future too. but that doesnt mean rise did everything bad didnt it? it would just mean, that they have to create more difficult versions of the bosses (faster/more hp/ whatever) that have a higher chance to drop valuable stuff or not?
sorry for stepping on toes with my lack of knowledge but i just wanted to share what i, as a new/returning player, feel/think about the game.
To add to your point here. They did kinda do this to some extent in the special raids(lv90) where some of the old raid/dungeon bosses were given s3 level stats and fought as a pair and they drop lv95 essence and scrolls and the pair that is featured rotates weekly. Not sure why they stopped doing new versions of this though i thought it was a great way to bring back old bosses at their full strength while making them relevant for vets players to do and they don't overload on the raid schedule because it rotates weekly and its literally recycled content so it can't be too hard to implement.
Correct me if I'm mistaken, but isn't that chart only representative of people who log in through steam? Plenty of players log in with the nexon launcher. I guess it still shows declining population over years lul.
There are all of two +12 or higher 95 weaps on the MP. The For Sale section is dead, averaging about 1.5 posts a day for some time now. Some of the Character forums haven't had a single post in two months. Off-topic is dead. You could count megas in the game and very nearly time something in the oven or on the stove without having to worry about it burning. Some of the former most active guilds are nearly dead. Even those who kept us regularly updated on KR hardly bother keeping us informed anymore.
You wouldn't need an exact count if you ran a business somewhere and saw by observation that clientele in the general area continued drying up. The context clues tell a very clear story as to the state of the NA/AUS server, and I doubt that EU is much better.