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Attack limit clarification

ScarrletttScarrlettt
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edited December 10, 2016 in General Discussion
I want to clarify the actual percent boost gained from attack limit release. There have been some confusions and numbers thrown around but I have done tests to prove that 2000 attack limit release equates to roughly 15.6%.

Now I have not attack limit anything as I cant afford that nor are there any weapons I own that are even remotely worth to do it on. However, the new change to Niflheim has been a great place to test the effects of going above the attack cap. After blowing thru numerous guns for that glorious +15, I recently made a +12 term sent gun that I plan to just keep cuz fk ferghus and his shenanigans. It puts me at 22854 attack which happens to be very convenient as the def of niflheim bosses were raised to 11k, meaning the technical attack cap of nifl bosses are 20855. This means im exactly 1999 attack over the attk cap which basically we can just consider 2000.

The way attack limit release works is that it adds the effective attack that goes over the attk cap. Normally being over 10,000 attack over the boss' defense meant you were fully capped and any higher wont do anything. Attk limit basically pushes it to 12000. Disclaimer: this is a very crude explanation, there are more detailed math behind this that for the sake of simplicity will not go into.

Since im 1999 attk over the "technical cap" this basically means the damage I do would be equal to if I had 2000 attk limit release on any other boss in the game. Viewing my numbers, my nuke usually does 42k, but in zecallion it went up to 49k. 49/42 = 1.16666 which is basically a 16.6% increase. My hollow shots non enhanced typically do 6k but in zeca they were 6.9k. 6.9/6 = 1.15 or 15% increase. Enhanced perf first shot was 3k in zeca and is usually 2.6k so thats 3/2.6 = 1.1534 or 15.34%. Basically, the calculated guess of 15.6% is correct. To further gather more data, i also run niflheim on my arisha who is at 23.6k, meaning she is 2.8k attk over the atk cap in nifl. Her arcane flurry did bout 2.2k when normally its about 1.8k. 2.2/1.8 = 1.22 or 22%. If you do the math, each 1000 attk over cap is about 7.8% increase. So at 2000 its 15.6% and at 3000 its 23.4%. My arisha is in between, at 2800 over cap and saw a roughly 22% increase which makes sense mathmatically. this is just a follow up to a previous thread where I made this claim but had no evidence to back it up. Now I do.
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Comments

  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
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    Science!
  • MochiSweetMochiSweet
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    when we get new transformation system and neamhain buff, along with weapon the attack limit can rise up to 4100, that would be a real deal.
  • Question2Question2
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    Uh, you cant calculate the worth of 2k attack limit release like that. You need to look at the damage multipliers for each character. It is not a flat 15.6% increase in damage. It should actually be 20% more damage on average.

    Here's an example : amaranth kick has a damage multiplier of about 0.5, meaning it hits for about 5k if you are attack capped. Additional damage will bump that up a bit, but im not including it here for simplicity.

    If you have an attack cap of 12k instead of 10k, amaranth kick would do roughly 6k damage, which is a 20% increase. You are probably not seeing a flat 20% increase due to balance and additional damage.

    Here's an example : Off the top of my head, 180 additional damage is roughly equal to 1.2k attack. Since that ignores the attack cap, you aren't just calculating damage based on 10k attack, but 11,200. 2k attack limit release puts you at an attack cap of 13,200 vs 11,200. If you had the holy grail of a +15, you would be looking at an attack cap of 15k vs 13k which is roughly a 15% increase.
  • ScarrletttScarrlettt
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    Question2
    Question2 said:

    Uh, you cant calculate the worth of 2k attack limit release like that. You need to look at the damage multipliers for each character. It is not a flat 15.6% increase in damage. It should actually be 20% more damage on average.

    Here's an example : amaranth kick has a damage multiplier of about 0.5, meaning it hits for about 5k if you are attack capped. Additional damage will bump that up a bit, but im not including it here for simplicity.

    If you have an attack cap of 12k instead of 10k, amaranth kick would do roughly 6k damage, which is a 20% increase. You are probably not seeing a flat 20% increase due to balance and additional damage.

    Here's an example : Off the top of my head, 180 additional damage is roughly equal to 1.2k attack. Since that ignores the attack cap, you aren't just calculating damage based on 10k attack, but 11,200. 2k attack limit release puts you at an attack cap of 13,200 vs 11,200. If you had the holy grail of a +15, you would be looking at an attack cap of 15k vs 13k which is roughly a 15% increase.
    Im not understanding what you are saying.
  • ScarrletttScarrlettt
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    Additional damage is separate from attk limit. If i went in with a +0 and had 2k above attk cap and just compared with +0 without 2k above attk cap, the diff wi be te same which is 15.6% give or take
  • ElleaseEllease
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    Question2
    Question2 said:

    Uh, you cant calculate the worth of 2k attack limit release like that. You need to look at the damage multipliers for each character. It is not a flat 15.6% increase in damage. It should actually be 20% more damage on average.

    Here's an example : amaranth kick has a damage multiplier of about 0.5, meaning it hits for about 5k if you are attack capped. Additional damage will bump that up a bit, but im not including it here for simplicity.

    If you have an attack cap of 12k instead of 10k, amaranth kick would do roughly 6k damage, which is a 20% increase. You are probably not seeing a flat 20% increase due to balance and additional damage.

    Here's an example : Off the top of my head, 180 additional damage is roughly equal to 1.2k attack. Since that ignores the attack cap, you aren't just calculating damage based on 10k attack, but 11,200. 2k attack limit release puts you at an attack cap of 13,200 vs 11,200. If you had the holy grail of a +15, you would be looking at an attack cap of 15k vs 13k which is roughly a 15% increase.
    On the contrary, the multipliers are irrelevant to this. The increase stems from the basic formula having a base value that is added to the 10,000 cap.
  • PandariaPandaria
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    Scarrlettt

    I want to clarify the actual percent boost gained from attack limit release. There have been some confusions and numbers thrown around but I have done tests to prove that 2000 attack limit release equates to roughly 15.6%.

    Now I have not attack limit anything as I cant afford that nor are there any weapons I own that are even remotely worth to do it on. However, the new change to Niflheim has been a great place to test the effects of going above the attack cap. After blowing thru numerous guns for that glorious +15, I recently made a +12 term sent gun that I plan to just keep cuz fk ferghus and his shenanigans. It puts me at 22854 attack which happens to be very convenient as the def of niflheim bosses were raised to 11k, meaning the technical attack cap of nifl bosses are 20855. This means im exactly 1999 attack over the attk cap which basically we can just consider 2000.

    The way attack limit release works is that it adds the effective attack that goes over the attk cap. Normally being over 10,000 attack over the boss' defense meant you were fully capped and any higher wont do anything. Attk limit basically pushes it to 12000. Disclaimer: this is a very crude explanation, there are more detailed math behind this that for the sake of simplicity will not go into.

    Since im 1999 attk over the "technical cap" this basically means the damage I do would be equal to if I had 2000 attk limit release on any other boss in the game. Viewing my numbers, my nuke usually does 42k, but in zecallion it went up to 49k. 49/42 = 1.16666 which is basically a 16.6% increase. My hollow shots non enhanced typically do 6k but in zeca they were 6.9k. 6.9/6 = 1.15 or 15% increase. Enhanced perf first shot was 3k in zeca and is usually 2.6k so thats 3/2.6 = 1.1534 or 15.34%. Basically, the calculated guess of 15.6% is correct. To further gather more data, i also run niflheim on my arisha who is at 23.6k, meaning she is 2.8k attk over the atk cap in nifl. Her arcane flurry did bout 2.2k when normally its about 1.8k. 2.2/1.8 = 1.22 or 22%. If you do the math, each 1000 attk over cap is about 7.8% increase. So at 2000 its 15.6% and at 3000 its 23.4%. My arisha is in between, at 2800 over cap and saw a roughly 22% increase which makes sense mathmatically. this is just a follow up to a previous thread where I made this claim but had no evidence to back it up. Now I do.
    Yes the calculation do make sense in this case, however I still have doubts with this estimation because,
    1) Assuming 15.6% increase is true then this doesn't really add up with the solo clear times I'm seeing. Or maybe it's because the focus stimulant + SP pot + better executed solo run. If a 50% damage pot makes the solo 50% faster then a 15.6% damage increase should work the same way.
    2) I believe kyoobink mentioned that the damage formula was reworked with this update so is it still okay for us to apply the old formula now to estimate? There is no attack cap on Niflheim raids now, is having 2k more attack in there the same definition of having 2k attack limit remove?

    I've been paying attention to my own damage numbers and comparing them with the Evie who has 2.5k attack limit remove, it does seem that the numbers she has falls around 15-20% increased damage.
    I still do think it's worth to try to get my attack limit remove done, since I'd rather work towards this slowly than trying another +15 lvl 95 ..... so I'll probably be running a lot of solos to see the result.

    +call Ainama for damage formula analysis.
  • HustlingHustling
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    edited December 13, 2016
    Would be nice, but Ainama left around the midway point of S2. Hasn't been back since, or atleast not from what I've seen. Probably burned himself out, beyond the point of return, farming 50+ thunder rings.
  • ThePharaohThePharaoh
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    just have some fun and chiiillll x.x
  • ScarrletttScarrlettt
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    Shippuu confirmed it in VindiDiscord. He did mention tho that at lower enhance the attk limit has a greater boost. At +0 if u 2000 attk limit released it wud be a 18.3% increase. At +15 its a 15.6% increase. As I said before, solo times are not a reliable method to compare dps before and after. Theres a lot of rng that plays into it such as crit, bal and rng of boss attk patterns. Arcane gate critting and not critting is a lot of damage difference, especially since it has mutiple parts that can crit meaning potential for bigger damage. Furthermore, that evie player has made multiple attempts with regina solo and has generally gotten better and probably made a solo with lucky rolls. Becuz there is so many variables, the best method to truly compare dps diff before and after attk limit is thru raw numbers and keep them in the same condition. You take away crit and for bal, 90 bal is pretty consistent and doing multiple hits to get an average is rather accurate.