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PSA: Spirit Rend change is literally useless

OkatsuOkatsu
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in Sylas
If you're a Sylas player and you're worried if the change to spirit rend will mean you have to change the way you play, or trouble you with having to commit something new to muscle memory then don't worry: Using spirit rend on the 3rd normal is entirely unnecessary

First of all spirit rend acts the same way as it always does, meaning even when landing it on the 3rd hit it's still only going to give you 3 phantom shards. In which case you will be one shard off from max.
Second of all in most situations Cyclone Saw (4th smash) is almost always stronger (by about 2x +) than Cyclone edge (3rd smash). And while Cyclone Crash, which is the third additional attack, might do more damage than illusion fist, the fourth additional, it only makes a difference in damage of about 1 phantom shard which you're currently missing out on if you opt to use the 3rd smash (or maybe even 3 shards if you don't land the much more difficult spirit rend on 3rd normal)
Third of all you're still only allowed to have 6 phantom shards on you at a time, which is gained easily from just using spirit rend on the 4th normal. Landing both spirit rends will not reward you with more shards. It will only make your BnB combo take longer.

All in all Sylas has been made a much more forgiving character. It's now almost impossible to miss spirit rend on your 4th hit since they increased the window, and all his smashes cancel into an SP skill even faster than before. They now let you dodge faster after using SP skills like phantasmic slash, which before would put you in a bad situation if used at the wrong time. And on top of all that you no longer have to worry about getting hit as much because Phantom Force: Blade will now restore your stamina, granted it be a little less per second, as long as you're level 4 or above. He's easy.

HOWEVER
This could mean something for the future of this character. If it's worth it to you and you feel like they might make a change to sylas, say they go ahead and uncap his skills. Now Phantom Shard goes from rank A max to rank 6 max and at rank 6 the maximum number of shards is increased from 6 to 8. Now Landing both spirit rend hits will reward you greatly leaving you with the maximum amount of shards possible for that combo. Maybe you get the muscle memory down now and leave yourself ahead of the curve so if a change like this did happen you'll be ready and at an advantage over the rest of your fellow shota lovers.

This change will most likely never happen. Just enjoy the character they've dumbed down for you.

Comments

  • TradespotTradespot
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    I actully like having the option to spirit rend on the 3 swing.I now have 51 att speed and it was the highest i ever had on Sylas so my prospective might be differant than others.

    You have to take in consideration that cyclone Edge and Crash hit respectively hard as well.The reason i think most people dont incorporate it is because the wineup of Cyclone /EdgeCrash combo makes it less conveniant to get away without getting hit.

    I was very uncomfortable using the new Spirit Rend on the 1st day but it's memorized now and i definitely find situations where to use it,especially for the bosses that have a tendancy to dissapear a lot.It gives me an opportunity to unleash 5 shards and score a Cyclone Edge at the same time.


    One example would be lets say Havan body slam.At my speed when he does that i have the time to do a full Cyclone Saw combo(so+Illusion Fist),plus 1 left click and than dodge behind him...from there i gather 5 shards with the 3rd hit Spirit Rend and Cyclone Edge+Crash.


    But yes,the timing of the Spirit rend did feel odd at 1st,but now that it's registered i only really decide to do it once i reach my second normal hit in most situations.You definitely have to be used to the new timing to improvise it efficiently,that's probably what is mixing up.

    My first impression was indeed to not bother mastering it,but now it does serve me good purpose.

    Up to you but i think the very fact of mastering the timing of it will open some damage opportunities with due time.Like i said it really felt odd at first.


    **Note

    Bosses that have a tendancy to move and teleport a lot are hard to Full Cyclone saw/Illusion Fist,without wasting a considerable amount of shards or wasting dps stalling for the right time.That's also in these cases where i use Crash and Edge,but also other situations...

    Maybe when i get more attack speed i'll be differant thoe,i have no clue for now
  • MilioMilio
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    Landing the combo as I did before is easier, and I feel it still does more. Personally seems useless to add the 3rd smash rend. I have 57 attack speed as of right now if that means anything. I do more damage just doing the same old thing as I used to.
  • OkatsuOkatsu
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    As long as cyclone saw hits twice that combo will always do more damage than anything you can get out of the 3rd smash.
    The only situations I use cyclone edge in are on bosses who's hitboxes are too hard to hit with illusion fist. This makes the new spirit rend somewhat helpful but since the new timing on that hit and the amount of frames it takes to use cyclone crash makes it take longer than a combo that does more damage and is for the most part safer. If anything I'll just get 6 shards and dodge and fire them with a different move as opposed to using cyclone edge if I feel like using C-Saw will get me hit.
  • MilioMilio
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    Pretty much. Cyclone Saw at all times, unless you'll get it.
  • TradespotTradespot
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    Okatsu
    Okatsu said:

    As long as cyclone saw hits twice that combo will always do more damage than anything you can get out of the 3rd smash.
    The only situations I use cyclone edge in are on bosses who's hitboxes are too hard to hit with illusion fist. This makes the new spirit rend somewhat helpful but since the new timing on that hit and the amount of frames it takes to use cyclone crash makes it take longer than a combo that does more damage and is for the most part safer. If anything I'll just get 6 shards and dodge and fire them with a different move as opposed to using cyclone edge if I feel like using C-Saw will get me hit.
    We are talking about 10-13k with 6 shards release minus about 1,6k if your Phantom Shooter misses because you had to dodge quickly...so than it would be about 8,4 to 11,4k.

    14-19k with a Cyclone Edge+Crash combo.Also dodge +right-click consumes more stamina than anything else so you would want to use it but not too much in certain context.

    Cyclone Edge+Cyclone Saw consumes exactly the same amount of stamina than Cyclone Saw+Illusion Fist.Cyclone Crash presents a very minimal penetration delay versus Illusion Fist.Illusion Fist is quick when you hit an empty spot but when you hit a boss there is a penetration effect wich holds you a little.You can only nullify it with focus stims or lower it with trans.

    If in the course of action you have 1 shard and you happen to be next to the boss,there is no reason to reset an illusion Fist combo because the combo is longer than a Cyclone Crash unless you dodge between you Cyclone Edge and Cyclone Crash.Taking a fix roll of balance there is about 5k differance of damage between both combos.But like i said,in multiple situations the shortest combo will prevent you to stall or to shoot shards next to the boss.

    I can't assume for sure that at higher speed it would be the same,id have to try 1st but than again the title might be misleading to those who have less speed.


    The 4th normal hit Spirit Rend is Probably memeorized by most now and the 3rd hit Spirit Rend might still be difficult to incorporate wich is normal.That's also why it might be too early to officialize it as useless.For the numbers of time Succubus Queen dissapears,i'd highly doubt that you can always unleash 6 shards without stalling your damage or loosing shards.That's really just one example.

    You mentioned yourself that it is indeed very useful for certain cases where the Illusion Fist combo will suffer from hitbox issues wich is true.So from back than that still makes an extra shard damage every time you do it.

    Anyhow that's definitely not useless.Sheild parry was considered useless at first too,than things develooped with time and experiances.

  • quietguyquietguy
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    Wow, OP - sorry you don't like playing Sylas. If you don't notice the improvement, its understandable. I mean Sylas is just so flexible in ways he can be played. His combos are so easy to link in any order you choose. But I guess your hatred got the better of you and you can't see that he actually IS improved.
    Try not to cry too hard about it. Some of us a very happy with the changes.

    As for future changes - nah. He's easy enough as it is. He always was. Can I roll my face across my keyboard and be awesome at Sylas? Yes. But now, I have to roll across fewer keys. +best
  • MilioMilio
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    quietguy
    quietguy said:

    Wow, OP - sorry you don't like playing Sylas. If you don't notice the improvement, its understandable. I mean Sylas is just so flexible in ways he can be played. His combos are so easy to link in any order you choose. But I guess your hatred got the better of you and you can't see that he actually IS improved.
    Try not to cry too hard about it. Some of us a very happy with the changes.

    As for future changes - nah. He's easy enough as it is. He always was. Can I roll my face across my keyboard and be awesome at Sylas? Yes. But now, I have to roll across fewer keys. +best
    We're not saying we don't like playing Sylas, or that he isn't better. What he's saying makes complete sense. The change made him easier; yes, you can land the last spirit rend easier. The POINT though, is that you don't need to use the new 3rd spirit rend to do any more damage, and it'll take longer that just doing the normal 4rd smash spirit rend.
  • TradespotTradespot
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    Milio
    Milio said:


    We're not saying we don't like playing Sylas, or that he isn't better. What he's saying makes complete sense. The change made him easier; yes, you can land the last spirit rend easier. The POINT though, is that you don't need to use the new 3rd spirit rend to do any more damage, and it'll take longer that just doing the normal 4rd smash spirit rend.

    I see the point.I just think that it's only valid on paper.Because you guys are definitely right about the Illusion Fist combo being more powerful.I tested it and in average the differance is around 5-6k,wich represents the differance between landing the Fist or not.

    But yes,in the course of action you can't always predict the boss next move so that's where damage versus/time comes in consideration.


    A for this quote(and it'll take longer that just doing the normal 4rd smash spirit rend):



    It's not longer^


    Some examples where you can choose an attack over another,this only in one situation and there is many other examples.Speed might also be a factor or not i don't know.Regardless i think there is a differance between *useless and somehow conveniant*:




    -0:24 if you look carefully i did gather 5 shards and it still put me in position to restart an Illusion Fist combo right after if i wanted to.No way i could of collected 6 thoe
    -1:07 if i commited right away,i would of got the time to unleash 5 shards from the newer Spirit rend maybe even the Cyclone Edge,maybe not...but definitely not the Cyclone Saw.



    Even if we would have to agree on a degree of conveniance,i don't see how it could be labeled as useless,especially within a short period of the change being implemented.
  • OkatsuOkatsu
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    quietguy
    quietguy said:

    Wow, OP - sorry you don't like playing Sylas. If you don't notice the improvement, its understandable. I mean Sylas is just so flexible in ways he can be played. His combos are so easy to link in any order you choose. But I guess your hatred got the better of you and you can't see that he actually IS improved.
    Try not to cry too hard about it. Some of us a very happy with the changes.

    As for future changes - nah. He's easy enough as it is. He always was. Can I roll my face across my keyboard and be awesome at Sylas? Yes. But now, I have to roll across fewer keys. +best
    Completely misread the post and also the change I suggested doesn't make him easier, it makes him more difficult and stronger.

    And I'm glad you did some testing on relative frame data between 4th smash and 3rd smash combo and it's pretty easy to say that 3-6k more damage for an added (ave.) 0.5 seconds is entirely more efficient DPS wise. Also since spirit rend on the 4th normal is easier as well as quicker to land I would sooner use that before I go for new spirit rend. This new spirit rend only comes in handy for bosses that are more difficult to hit with illusion fist than cyclone crash. And in most cases if illusion fist isn't safe to land then you should not be close enough to hit cyclone edge anyway. The real power of cyclone saw is not only in it doing slightly more damage it's the fact that you can stay at a safe range when using this move if need be.

    TL;DR:
    I'm happy I'm getting an extra 4k damage when using cyclone edge on Pantheum. He's just about the only boss that move is viable for.

  • TradespotTradespot
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    edited December 10, 2016
    Okatsu
    Okatsu said:

    quietguy
    quietguy said:

    Wow, OP - sorry you don't like playing Sylas. If you don't notice the improvement, its understandable. I mean Sylas is just so flexible in ways he can be played. His combos are so easy to link in any order you choose. But I guess your hatred got the better of you and you can't see that he actually IS improved.
    Try not to cry too hard about it. Some of us a very happy with the changes.

    As for future changes - nah. He's easy enough as it is. He always was. Can I roll my face across my keyboard and be awesome at Sylas? Yes. But now, I have to roll across fewer keys. +best
    Completely misread the post and also the change I suggested doesn't make him easier, it makes him more difficult and stronger.

    And I'm glad you did some testing on relative frame data between 4th smash and 3rd smash combo and it's pretty easy to say that 3-6k more damage for an added (ave.) 0.5 seconds is entirely more efficient DPS wise. Also since spirit rend on the 4th normal is easier as well as quicker to land I would sooner use that before I go for new spirit rend. This new spirit rend only comes in handy for bosses that are more difficult to hit with illusion fist than cyclone crash. And in most cases if illusion fist isn't safe to land then you should not be close enough to hit cyclone edge anyway. The real power of cyclone saw is not only in it doing slightly more damage it's the fact that you can stay at a safe range when using this move if need be.

    TL;DR:
    I'm happy I'm getting an extra 4k damage when using cyclone edge on Pantheum. He's just about the only boss that move is viable for.

    Ya,except that you exclude the boss movements and features.For example on Lakoria i can rarely find a reason to use Cyclone Edge.But on other bosses i definitely use it depending on the situation.On tight situations,you can still release 5 shards with Cyclone Edge and than land Cyclone Crash while being hit...while using Cyclone saw makes you more vulnerable to getting hit,stunned and loose the damage.

    On the so called dps formula you have to include all the times you loose damage on an attempt because you selected the wrong attack,the shards that you loose.It's not complicated,it's called damage per second if you know the 24k damage attempt wont go throught and will transfer into a 6 shards release+a Phantom Shooter(14k ishh),why wouldn't you score a 17k ishh and than be on perfect position/timing to score a 24k.

    I keep seing people using the term dps as if the boss was just standing there waiting to take damage.It doesn't always work as you would want to.It's either you will occasionally loose shards or you will have to stop the Cyclone Saw motion and loose a few damage that adds up everytime you don't complete it.

    You do that 4 times and it's already 12-24k waisted,not including the attempts where you lost all the shards because you got hit.


    Cyclone Edge isn't that difficult to use without getting hit.You just have to practice it.Just because your not at ease with the attack doesn't make it bad for everyone else.Title was stating useless,yet onthe 2 last replies you found a new usage for it.


    Edit:

    Im also confused as how the 4th Spirit Rend would be quicker than the 3rd one.

    Those i didn't record time them but it's obvious when i compare them:

    It's 2 normal hits,a moment of stall+ a 3rd normal hit

    vs

    3 normal hits a moment of stall+ a 4th normal hit

    And it would really only be harder until you get used to it.

    I don't see how it could be difficult to incorporate Cyclone edge after taking the time to figure it out especially for someone who plays Vella that well.You probably jumped to conclusion too fast with this character wich can happen.
  • NiahselNiahsel
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    say what you will but since these new improvements on his 3rd smash and spirit rend not only is it more fun to play him since he has more viable options but my dps has increased 10 fold since his buffs / alterations. now i want to see them fix Extinction Road and make Vision Trap more viable by either increasing it's base damage + high crit rate or apply the perfect timing mechanic that will like double the amount of shards right before you let go of right click
  • SaphreeSaphree
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    The Spirit Rend changes weren't the most needed in my opinion, I would've preferred if they fixed a lot of the problems Extinction Roar has, but I'm not complaining, it's a buff that's not gonna be used a lot but that doesn't mean it's entirely useless, some people play differently that us and they may buff it from 6 to 8 shards like you said, which would be great but would make Sylas more attack speed heavy. Either way, I don't see a problem with it.
  • SlayceSlayce
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    I believe it does have one major use: keeping optimal distance from the boss whilst still gaining 6 shards per combo. To gain 6 shards before spirit rend changes, you had to land all 4 attacks to get 6 shards. This means that you will have to attack 4 times IN THE DIRECTION of the boss, which draws you closer to it. After the changes, you can use the first two normal attacks to attack AWAY from the boss, before attacking in the direction of the boss and enhancing the third AND fourth normal to still gain all 6 shards before the smash. Since you move a considerable distance when attacking, but also have a lot of range, the change makes it so that you can attack from a much safer distance than you used to, while still keeping maximum damage.