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Bots?

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  • AngelYukkiAngelYukki
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    edited February 22, 2019
    noctred wrote: »
    From what I've seen, even poorly geared players can catch a lot of high seal games if they queue at the right time simply due to the nature of OS matchmaking; and if they take the time to learn the mode, they can contribute to their own success regardless of their gear due to the mode's mechanics. My win rate at the end of every season so far has been right around 50% or a bit lower - nothing crazy impressive.
    More about seal count / game from monster kills as opposed to WR
  • SatsueSatsue
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    I just wanted to point out that I don't entirely agree with you, ikevi. I came back after a long time and basically had nothing even when I left, but I made a Grimden and just a few days ago I was finally able to start doing the level 100 raids regularly. Now, this was without having given him anything at all, because remember, I didn't have anything I could even give him.

    It doesn't take over a month to get enough seals for essence, either. There's many many ways to get seals other than doing raids. You can get them from Royal Army, you can get them from the level 40 bottles from Royal Army as well, you can run Abyssal Arena, and you can get them from doing Ein Lacher.

    There's a lot of options to get seals, the main issue is, the game isn't entirely clear to new players that such methods exist. It just tells people certain content exists and doesn't say "By the way, you can get extra seals of bravery from this that doesn't count towards your cap" until AFTER you've already done it.
  • JinyieJinyie
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    edited February 22, 2019
    I agree, you don't need amazing gear to get to the second highest tier of rank in OS. It is possible to get to 3000 points within the season time span and is relatively easy to get top 200 since not many people are doing Onslaught I don't think. Just don't go into the onslaught season thinking you can make gold doing 10 or so matches.
  • LoLoBootyLoLoBooty
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    edited February 22, 2019
    Elynsa wrote: »
    My experience has been that in the game's current state the bots are necessary for the non-wealthy to make real gear progress. <snip> During the weeks (Damascus bots returned a lot faster than legendary ore bots) that the bots were absent my gear progress was completely halted because prices of everything nearly doubled and there was next to no supply. I actively aim to buy from players but I can't do that if they don't lower their prices, and they don't seem to lower their prices unless the bots pressure them to.

    I can understand your experience but keep in mind that the bot absence did not go on long enough to level-out. Had the bot absence gone on long enough it would have meant that you would have sold your items for more gold.

    To me the whole gold discussion is relative. Lack of supply for core mats is the reason bots would be sorely missed. Newbs and pros alike would be stilted from making regular process.

    We should be asking Australian players what it was like finding items before the server merge. Or EU players who have also played on NA servers. What is the EU experience on the EU server with less bot influence?

    Also if your looking to make gold and the bots are zigging you should be zagging. Stop this narrative that raids is the only or best way to make money. In fact it is one of the least time effective ways to make money.
  • ikeviikevi
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    edited February 22, 2019
    LoLoBooty wrote: »
    Also if your looking to make gold and the bots are zigging you should be zagging. Stop this narrative that raids is the only or best way to make money. In fact it is one of the least time effective ways to make money.

    Ugh if you are referring to me and a narrative I am just saying what I enjoy to do.

    IE I play the game first, make money second. Honestly I am not a big fan of OS, yet I have managed to get >3k every season (even with a really crudy win rate.) I quickly get bored running s1 content to get armor to dismantel => sell stones, yet sure I will do it every once in a while.

    What I do enjoy is doing raids. And look I obviously am not strapped for gold/gear... But everyone that knows me, knows I play this game way way too much.

    So my assumption is that the average person doesn't like OS (hence why there are so few folks playing it...) and they run enough content that is equivalent to earning 2 m a day and 10 seals a day. For a new person that only has the +12 gear that can take up a decent amount of time. So yes, you can do very different things.

    Now as to the comment from @satsue so you had no old rune to +10 or better dul weapons? What is your character name as grim I want to take a look tonight to understand what type of gear you say you can get in just a few days. (Without anything from a previous character/etc.)

    I personally have lvled up a ton of alts... and I know how much I manage to make just doing that. Then to get into lv 100 raids + manage 15% dps is my goal. And either you need a huge amount of luck and are willing to yolo, or you need the runes from the seal shop... That you can't buy at more than 1 a week.

    K, obviously my opinion (bots are bad ;-) on this matter has been outlined much too many times, so I will shut up on the issue.
  • ElynsaElynsa
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    LoLoBooty wrote: »
    I can understand your experience but keep in mind that the bot absence did not go on long enough to level-out. Had the bot absence gone on long enough it would have meant that you would have sold your items for more gold.

    To me the whole gold discussion is relative. Lack of supply for core mats is the reason bots would be sorely missed. Newbs and pros alike would be stilted from making regular process.

    We should be asking Australian players what it was like finding items before the server merge. Or EU players who have also played on NA servers. What is the EU experience on the EU server with less bot influence?

    Perhaps, but even if items would sell for more the items I need to buy would also cost more.

    My brother played on AUS but stopped when Rise Update hit. He said you couldn't really use the MP because there was literally only 2-3 pages of items as a whole. Not sure if that's helpful or not since a lot has changed since then.
  • LoLoBootyLoLoBooty
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    ikevi wrote: »
    LoLoBooty wrote: »
    Also if your looking to make gold and the bots are zigging you should be zagging. Stop this narrative that raids is the only or best way to make money. In fact it is one of the least time effective ways to make money.

    Ugh if you are referring to me and a narrative I am just saying what I enjoy to do.

    No, the comment wasn't directed at you. Perhaps its just a learned behaviour in all MMO's that to make money you do raids. I'm not sure since this is my first. I just commonly hear the argument that "I am doing raids and I am not making any money". @Noctred pointed out a few examples that are more consistently profitable.

    Elynsa wrote: »
    LoLoBooty wrote: »
    We should be asking Australian players what it was like finding items before the server merge. Or EU players who have also played on NA servers. What is the EU experience on the EU server with less bot influence?

    Perhaps, but even if items would sell for more the items I need to buy would also cost more.

    My brother played on AUS but stopped when Rise Update hit. He said you couldn't really use the MP because there was literally only 2-3 pages of items as a whole. Not sure if that's helpful or not since a lot has changed since then.

    Both your comments hit on my points. Higher sale prices = Higher profits. Lower sale prices = Lower profits. It's relative.

    Your bro's experience is the feedback I would expect to hear: MP so bare (low supply) that it's not useful. Imagine having to wait a week to craft a armor piece because your waiting for someone to post a smooth ore. That's just not fun.
  • LoLoBootyLoLoBooty
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    On a different note ...

    I naively thought that the introduction of Counterforce would stop (delay) the bots from running the latest raids. If you think about how Counterforce works:

    * The bots presumably have zero counterforce stat
    * The less counterforce stat you have the less damage you can do to the point of it being like hitting the boss with a nerf bat
    * Yet the bots are clearing on hero mode
    * It's always been rumored they throw some 'divine spear' or other super weapon repeatedly
    * Yet Nexon can't seem to detect and stop this type of abuse
    * Yet if we throw one fine spear in a raid = zero drops.

    :feelsbipman:
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
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    "Perhaps, but even if items would sell for more the items I need to buy would also cost more."

    This is the simplest point of it all. Yes, if bots weren't there someone could sell raid drops for more but they'd also have to pay more for everything they want to buy themselves. With either an active population or bots prices are suppressed because of a higher quantity supplied and the gold earned by leveling, playing regularly, and from selling things like element shard mats that are easier to come by put a much bigger dent in the cost to get higher level gear.

    Higher prices only benefit the already rich, obscenely geared players. They can farm the highest content to get anything they need for themselves, sell the rest at high cost, and sit back laughing at how much they make. The healthiest servers have much lower prices and much larger availability of gear, with what players earn just from playing actually giving them some value.

    I don't even understand the complaint about raids not being rewarding. Scroll prices are still high, crafting mats still fetch a decent price, and steel has remained stable. Yes, some returns may be lower but so are costs, so the only way you were hurt is if you made major purchases while prices were back up and couldn't sell off extra items during the same time. The bots being gone just prices the average player out of being able to buy things in a reasonable amount of time, and again, the seal shop prices to put together one piece of gear are problematic to put it mildly.

    You can see how dead the game is. 95 and 90 mats run out more and more often as we get deeper into S3 and the eventual arrival of S4. Purples disappear entirely and OJs go back up to 10m + for 90 mats that aren't even truly relevant anymore because of the free 90 gear that's given out. The OJ boxes from Fishy/Aes/Fister Sister at least yield main essences, but they don't deliver chunks and the daily zone farmers are fewer and further between. That's an easy place to see what happens without botters bothering with the content. At least they're still getting 100 gear so that mats are available.

    There are no other ways to put it; the buying power of earned gold from playing and selling readily farmable mats gives a better return with either an active population or active bots, and you know which of those two is the reality with how Nexon has run players away from this game.
  • ElynsaElynsa
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    edited February 22, 2019
    @LoLoBooty Oh, if that original raid comment was directed at me I wasn't trying to imply raiding was the way to make money and I have not been solely raiding (which is why I said "fights"). I only mentioned it because I was talking about gear progression, and the only reason I have to progress my gear is so that I have the option to participate in the latest content without needing to draft people. I thought the discussion was more broadly about bots than specifically about making money.
  • YagaminYagamin
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    edited February 22, 2019
    someone could sell raid drops for more but they'd also have to pay more for everything they want to buy themselves

    This, and in Aus anything extremely rare (say, back when level 80 was cap and the drop rates were the original low drop rates, before you could box weapons) would have an absurd price to the point where if you got a Lak Fang you couldn't sell it because no one can afford it, and if you were trying to buy one, no one would sell because you couldn't afford it.

    Thus to make a weap we had to rely on getting drops ourselves then trade a rare s2 mat for another rare s2 mat without using gold.
    Elynsa
  • SatsueSatsue
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    ikevi wrote: »

    Now as to the comment from @satsue so you had no old rune to +10 or better dul weapons? What is your character name as grim I want to take a look tonight to understand what type of gear you say you can get in just a few days. (Without anything from a previous character/etc.)

    I personally have lvled up a ton of alts... and I know how much I manage to make just doing that. Then to get into lv 100 raids + manage 15% dps is my goal. And either you need a huge amount of luck and are willing to yolo, or you need the runes from the seal shop... That you can't buy at more than 1 a week.

    K, obviously my opinion (bots are bad ;-) on this matter has been outlined much too many times, so I will shut up on the issue.

    literally all I did was use the free stuff that was given to me during the grimden welcome box or free timed enhance runes that were given out during the holiday golden time or other events since he came out.

    refused to spend any of my already existing runes because they were account sharable and wanted to save them for Miul.

    I also didn't say I got it in a few days, I came back about a few days before Grimden came out.

    I don't give out my characters' names, but I can list his gear for you if you'd like.

    Accessories:
    +10 Warlord's Innocent Cry
    Sage's Chaos Spellbook Shadow Looting
    +10 Warlord's Woeful Belt
    +14 Sparkling Frozen Thorn
    +16 Sparkling Frozen Dagger
    Warlord's Erg Core Brooch
    D/S Copper Bracelet x2 (was cheaper than buying a Diamond leather bracelet at the time by about 400k)
    Weapon:
    +12 Righteous Judgement Dullahan Katamadhar

    Free Gear:
    +12 Memorable Expeditionary Braha Helm
    +12 Temporal Stigma Braha Mail
    +12 Memorable Expeditionary Braha Greaves
    +12 Reinforced Echoing Braha Gauntlets
    +12 Reinforced Echoing Braha Boots

    NX Items:
    Free Grimden package hair
    Free Grimden package inner
    AP Shop Epaulet & Necklace

    Outfit:
    None

    VIP from AP shop

    Vanguard bonus for having 6 max level chars

    Current stats:
    Power: 44643
    Tech: 220
    CF: 80
    ATT: 30,733
    Def: 13,810
    ADD: 3,000
    BAL: 83
    AS: 55
    LUK: 100

    Titles: 432
  • SuhpremeSuhpreme
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    I am the one running the bots. I make sure the bots are running during prime hours to sell at optimal prices, that gold is then used to buy outfitters on the market board from people who pay NX. I guess you can say I'm the reason this game is even alive! Hahaha.
  • NoSleepNoSleep
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    Satsue wrote: »
    ikevi wrote: »

    Now as to the comment from @satsue so you had no old rune to +10 or better dul weapons? What is your character name as grim I want to take a look tonight to understand what type of gear you say you can get in just a few days. (Without anything from a previous character/etc.)

    I personally have lvled up a ton of alts... and I know how much I manage to make just doing that. Then to get into lv 100 raids + manage 15% dps is my goal. And either you need a huge amount of luck and are willing to yolo, or you need the runes from the seal shop... That you can't buy at more than 1 a week.

    K, obviously my opinion (bots are bad ;-) on this matter has been outlined much too many times, so I will shut up on the issue.

    literally all I did was use the free stuff that was given to me during the grimden welcome box or free timed enhance runes that were given out during the holiday golden time or other events since he came out.

    refused to spend any of my already existing runes because they were account sharable and wanted to save them for Miul.

    I also didn't say I got it in a few days, I came back about a few days before Grimden came out.

    I don't give out my characters' names, but I can list his gear for you if you'd like.

    Accessories:
    +10 Warlord's Innocent Cry
    Sage's Chaos Spellbook Shadow Looting
    +10 Warlord's Woeful Belt
    +14 Sparkling Frozen Thorn
    +16 Sparkling Frozen Dagger
    Warlord's Erg Core Brooch
    D/S Copper Bracelet x2 (was cheaper than buying a Diamond leather bracelet at the time by about 400k)
    Weapon:
    +12 Righteous Judgement Dullahan Katamadhar

    Free Gear:
    +12 Memorable Expeditionary Braha Helm
    +12 Temporal Stigma Braha Mail
    +12 Memorable Expeditionary Braha Greaves
    +12 Reinforced Echoing Braha Gauntlets
    +12 Reinforced Echoing Braha Boots

    NX Items:
    Free Grimden package hair
    Free Grimden package inner
    AP Shop Epaulet & Necklace

    Outfit:
    None

    VIP from AP shop

    Vanguard bonus for having 6 max level chars

    Current stats:
    Power: 44643
    Tech: 220
    CF: 80
    ATT: 30,733
    Def: 13,810
    ADD: 3,000
    BAL: 83
    AS: 55
    LUK: 100

    Titles: 432

    I have similar stats and I find it a challenge to even consider farming lvl 100 raids there's just not enough Power and CF to do more than a few % and maybe be carried for 1 core. I guess you can farm them but wouldn't it be easier to farm Lvl 95 where you can join us in getting 2m on a good day? It doesn't change the fact that it took approx 3+ months to get below avg stats for current content. I mean I still need 100+m to complete CF sets as I'm missing one ring.
  • SatsueSatsue
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    NoSleep wrote: »

    I have similar stats and I find it a challenge to even consider farming lvl 100 raids there's just not enough Power and CF to do more than a few % and maybe be carried for 1 core. I guess you can farm them but wouldn't it be easier to farm Lvl 95 where you can join us in getting 2m on a good day? It doesn't change the fact that it took approx 3+ months to get below avg stats for current content. I mean I still need 100+m to complete CF sets as I'm missing one ring.

    I have a ton of Warm Welcome boxes saved up from when I was trying to get gear so I can do Macha when I want until I can get gear to not have to use them.

    As far as power requirement I don't meet, I just wait for players to use a Premium or Fine bath soap and it let's me meet the requirement for Devil's tower (without kitty potion) or Macha (with kitty potion for CF)

    Also you said it yourself, you get 2m on a good day... why would I do that when I can do something with a better drop rate and reward value like level 100's where getting just one good drop is already more than 4m and is obtainable far more frequently?

    I do have to admit, by the way, that gearing as I did for my character was really lucky, and would likely not have been possible had I not already had knowledge of this game and how to use things in an efficient manner.
  • VeneratorVenerator
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    ikevi wrote: »
    Noc I completely agree that you can still make gold. And OS -> steel farming works. But you are really overselling how many steel the average person makes in OS. Remember you are one of the best in our server... heck you are sitting at rank 33 and will likely stay up there all season. I only average ~1 steel per day in OS. I actually farm more steel just running normal raids a day. (Often I am getting 2-5 a day that way but I assume the average person doesn't.)

    And don't forget that the only way you are selling your steel is by undercutting the bots. Right now, 2/21/19 10:10 pm (PTS), there are 81 pages of steel posted. 19 posts (less than 2 pages) of those are of normal sellers the rest are all by bots at 4876543... The only reason you are still making gold selling steel is because the bots are still selling a ton at that price. (And somehow the bots aren't competing against themselves.) If we didn't have bots steel would easily be at 20m+ per or much more.

    The only place the bots are giving folks more gold is on NX and old even items. Everything else the bots have devalued to a price that only helps themselves.



    (Side note to folks, I said 1 orange per day of runs. But then said they are basically earning ~2m per day. Orange was more meant to mean something of worth, not really a orange pillar of light. IE steel/scrolls etc all count and when you average it out I figured ~2m per day with bots controlling the prices on things. And that is without VIP/extra luck/40% dps. Just what someone with the +12 gear can shoot for to earning per day.)


    I do not have any data on the lower end of running OS. If someone could give me info about how many intrusions/normal mobs/statues killed for their seasons I could create a excel spreadsheet to see how much they are making running OS.

    But I do believe that running OS will give the best value of getting steels for the amount of time you spend much better than running raids.

    Here are some stats on my own seal gain from OS for 1 char this is also assuming end of season rewards for 3 seasons.

    94kQSsu.png
    Source: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1LmOl4TGkle5BUV3FzC56Fen2S_004sbEbip53UglJoU/edit?usp=sharing

    This is definitely on the high end on seal gain for OS but even at a lower rate of 50% win rate you can still maintain on average of .5 steel per run assuming you use a x2 seal pot (which pays itself off in about 10 runs).

    On the topic about bots I completely agree with you on how much it is harming the newer player experience. Everything that bots run those items tank in price and ends up making little to no money. It really sucks for the newer player when they are trying to gear up to run later content when drops are worth nothing.

    The only reason why steel maintains value even after 80+ pages of botted steel is because of the demand for them due to reforging making OS one of if not the most money making way with 100% progress with no RNG with very low entry requirements (+12 free gear can enter) assuming they learn the bosses enough and work as a team while doing decent damage (at least while rage exist).

    The only way to really make money is to run what bots don't run which kinda sucks considering the amount of things bots do run.
    Jinyie
  • ikeviikevi
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    edited February 23, 2019
    Venerator wrote: »

    I do not have any data on the lower end of running OS. If someone could give me info about how many intrusions/normal mobs/statues killed for their seasons I could create a excel spreadsheet to see how much they are making running OS.

    I already said what my rate is, but it is in the mass of words. I don't use 2x seal things, but for 6-7 runs I will on average get 1 steel. (IE averaging 30-40 seals per run.)

    As for win rate... When I upgraded to my lv 100 +15 things have gone way down hill. Now it usually goes that I can carry for the first 3/4 of the run. (We usually are winning.) Then statues statues statues. And folks don't know how to stay on them. (And I can only keep 2 statues down + attack a boss for say 30 seconds before I will be dead from someone leaving a statue alone. So basically the last 2-3 min you don't kill anything.

    Last season I managed a 36.7% win ratio. This season is at a giant 29.17%. I know Koreans seem to really like the RNG factor of the statues... but I am not willing to hold back on dps so we can bombard the other group with statues.

    (Also your time per game is off. Waiting even when there are 6 folks in the queue seems takes ~2 min for the host to be found. Then another 2 min to load/start, then you have the 8 min running + ~30 seconds to get out? Course getting the queue to get to 6 folks is horrid too.) I think I will time it during my next 6 runs.

    That said, today I ran 10 S3 and got 5 steel there. (Note I have luck, > 40% dps + guild, fire (on dul and up) and blessing extra cores). So you can see why OS at least for me is not the money maker a few of you paint it out to be. (And I can run all 10 raids in about half the time it takes me to run 6 OS.)

    And I am not trying to harp on OS. It is just, to me, OS is one of the most annoying parts of the game, that I feel I have to run. (You shouldn't be killed every time for winning the first 75% of the game.)


    *edit* I just ran 4 each time joined at 5 or more folks, would mega when we needed another person. Time = 12.5 per run. (Well all total 49 min 55 seconds).


    *edit again* Looks like Bots just lowered their price on everything again. Now steel will be 3.8 m for how long?
    LoLoBooty
  • PrototypemindPrototypemind
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    edited February 23, 2019
    Venerator wrote: »
    On the topic about bots I completely agree with you on how much it is harming the newer player experience. Everything that bots run those items tank in price and ends up making little to no money. It really sucks for the newer player when they are trying to gear up to run later content when drops are worth nothing.

    Please explain this to me. How are players worse off with items both selling for and costing less? If the items sell for less, yes, they earn less total gold, but if the other items they actually need to buy also cost less that's less gold they have to spend. The price of all enhanced gear dropped for quite a while with the game being slightly more active, mats costing less, and more people crafting and enhancing/enchanting gear. Mats were less, scrolls were less, premade gear was less, and the inflation was less effective in allowing for price gouging.

    If a new player earns 3m a day just from raiding payouts and can earn around 4m per steel if bots suppress prices, even without drops they can afford an ore every few days, and much sooner if they do get drops. They can buy chunks each day more or less, and a Dulla weap essence from day one, allowing them to stick with their free +12 gear and progress with a better weapon, or at least try for one. They can save for an Astera in a much more reasonable amount of time if they want to skip all the way to 100 gear.

    How would items making them more for each sale but costing them more to buy what they need serve them any better? What they earn each day just by playing would have less buying power, it's just that simple. The only people who benefit from higher prices are again those who can already farm the highest content, make their own gear, and sell the excess at massive profits.

    Players don't need to make crazy amounts of money off of every drop if mp prices for what they're trying to buy in the long run aren't crazy high. I don't know why that's so hard to get. High prices are a huge negative for new and returning players without a stockpile of gold.


    • KR with healthy population: lower prices more in line with what players earn by actually playing
    • NA with healthy population: higher prices than KR, but still more in line with what players earn
    • NA with botters making up for everyone Nexon ran off: higher prices than KR, but still more in line with what players earn
    • NA without botters: sky high prices with a few geared players farming and price gouging the entire MP because they can
  • jeddyhijeddyhi
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    What is OS?
  • ikeviikevi
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    edited February 23, 2019
    @Prototypemind The fact is that not everything that folks want/need is botted. Key areas for a new person: runes to make that +12 scrolled weapon. Accessories have an absurd cost to make +15 or better even without factoring in the mats.

    Yes folks don't need a 1 bil neam outfit... but where do you get that gold to make it when even lv 100 weapon ess have been pushed down to ~29m. Our market is so messed up because of bots and it really isn't making it better for everyone. Just those that have money and have items that bots can't crash the market on.