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I have an idea to make Hammer more favorable.

JayeJaye
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in Fiona
For a really long time now, Sword Fiona has always outclassed Hammer. Anytime hammer would get a buff, Sword had to get an even stronger one.
Swords have higher attack speed, they're better for soloing, cheaper to invest into and can easily out DPS hammer while having better survivability.
Hammers are slower, cost more to gear while having less survivability. Their damage is good but unreliable very unreliable. Hammer relies on deflecting enhanced butterfly swings and stigmas to maximize their damage. Sword Fiona counter attacks into Amaranth Kick and Spams Focal point, which definitely is the highest burst on Fiona. Doing this is much efficient in any raid, even sandbags and Neamhain.

I was thinking of a few changes they can make to hammer to help some of the problems Hammer has and make it more favorable. I want to hear what you guys think. In Season 3, Hammer feels very underwhelming and weaker than Sword.

-Reduce the stamina cost for Butterfly Swing's consecutive hits to 20 stamina so she can spam it a little bit more. It's not her main source of damage anyway so there's no reason to spam it right now. Your better off using from Counter Attack into Stigma Hammer for SP.

-Allow Hammer to use Shield Enhancement, so Hammer can deal some good damage while trying to SP.

-Allow Hammer to continue to use enhanced Butterfly Swings in succession during Slashing High. You would have the option to end with a Stigma Hammer charge during Slashing High or when it finishes. Her enhanced swings have a high multiplier so this change would allow her to get more of these swings in. She can keep deflecting the entire duration and doesn't need to start up her combo.

-Make Focal Point a Sword-only skill and give Hammer her own active skill for clearing mobs.

What do you guys think?

Comments

  • Controller001Controller001
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    i'd say hammer fiona needs a complete 100% rework.
    Sword fiona is more like intended fiona (block then counter and fast)
    Hammer on other hand trying for slow high defence (considering you take large shield to get iron defence buff and since it also gives you combo move LLLRLRR, i'd say devs intended large shield to be used with hammers) and its impossible to deal damage as hammer without taking hits, unlike nimble sword.

    Current hammer is more or less a mess, Slow, weak, short range and needs SL or ID to be able to do something, worse than sword in EVERY way.
    Hammer could get some active passives (like pilar/cestus karok), get rid of stupid charge stigma with its unrealible damage (maybe make it multi hit ?)
    Increase range by 20~30 on 0~3 smashes, since current range is just SAD seeing "hits" making no damage quite offten.
    Add more combos like current SL and ID (LLLRLRR one), make it more flexible.
  • AyPoolAyPool
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    Pretty much almost no one uses hammer, as noted above, however there's also huge BAL and SPD deficiencies that make damage output unreliable. Not to mention that the move set is pretty dull.

    If she gets another redesign I want the team who reworked Pillar Karok to do the job, Karok players will know what I mean.
    Controller001
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    edited March 14
    The problem is not Hammer being too weak, the problem is Longsword being too strong. Comparing both LS and Hammer, you don't see a significant difference in terms of gameplay (exact same defensive skills and similar SP cycle).
    Jaye
  • Controller001Controller001
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    Sadly hammer is weak, if you put people with same stats you will offten end up being at bottom in terms of DPS (someone has to), but the fact that you have to be constanly pushing you self to even be decent compared to new/remastered classes (STA regen on certain hits, active buffs, extra mobility, dodges).
    Sword is strong, but not too strong (besides solo, but thats just factor of how easy to solo with certain class), while hammer as mentioned earlyer the WORST of all at everything).
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    edited March 14
    Sadly hammer is weak, if you put people with same stats you will offten end up being at bottom in terms of DPS (someone has to), but the fact that you have to be constanly pushing you self to even be decent compared to new/remastered classes (STA regen on certain hits, active buffs, extra mobility, dodges).
    Sword is strong, but not too strong (besides solo, but thats just factor of how easy to solo with certain class), while hammer as mentioned earlyer the WORST of all at everything).

    https://youtube.com/channel/UCM3F2kAmsaVL6sdYtRhhyoA
    This is my ch and I uploded a lot of hammer fiona solos. Most of them are quite old. The solo clear time was very solid back then with my stats. it's not tier 1 as vella or LS Fiona but was at least better than Arisha. Also I barely got outdmg'ed either in party.


    I won't deny it that hammer is weaker in Pre. But it is still far from being "weak".

  • JayeJaye
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    Samalenko wrote: »
    The problem is not Hammer being too weak, the problem is Longsword being too strong. Comparing both LS and Hammer, you don't see a significant difference in terms of gameplay (exact same defensive skills and similar SP cycle).

    Now that I think about it I think this is very true. I used to play hammer most of the time since her big revamp. I have a +11 OJ enchanted hammer but, I still end up soloing Season 2 bosses with my +9 Lvl 80 event Longsword because she the damage is insane with the Focal Point Spam. I can also get so much burst from Shield Enhancement into Amaranth Kick. As much as I enjoy spinning and smashing things with my hammer, I'm working toward my getting a 90/95 Longsword.

    Hammer is definitely weaker and can use some changes. I don't agree with a complete rework though. I think they should increase the range of her attacks as well.
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    Jaye wrote: »
    Samalenko wrote: »
    The problem is not Hammer being too weak, the problem is Longsword being too strong. Comparing both LS and Hammer, you don't see a significant difference in terms of gameplay (exact same defensive skills and similar SP cycle).

    Now that I think about it I think this is very true. I used to play hammer most of the time since her big revamp. I have a +11 OJ enchanted hammer but, I still end up soloing Season 2 bosses with my +9 Lvl 80 event Longsword because she the damage is insane with the Focal Point Spam. I can also get so much burst from Shield Enhancement into Amaranth Kick. As much as I enjoy spinning and smashing things with my hammer, I'm working toward my getting a 90/95 Longsword.

    Hammer is definitely weaker and can use some changes. I don't agree with a complete rework though. I think they should increase the range of her attacks as well.

    If you compare hammer with other chars you would find her actually quite playable. Her gameplay could be very rewarding. As said before, imo, the problem is with Longsword. Longsword has a very similar playstyle in general and a far more higher damage base due to the counter attack. I woulnd't say hammer needs "buff", but I think LS should get nerfed. For example making counter attack > stigma hammer only, and LS can't link 3rd normal attack after counter since LS's counter is strong enough.

    Let's just say, Hammer and Longsword don't have a significant difference at all. why would ppl choose a weak weapon(hammer) over the strong one?
  • JayeJaye
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    edited March 15
    Samalenko wrote: »
    Jaye wrote: »
    Samalenko wrote: »
    The problem is not Hammer being too weak, the problem is Longsword being too strong. Comparing both LS and Hammer, you don't see a significant difference in terms of gameplay (exact same defensive skills and similar SP cycle).

    Now that I think about it I think this is very true. I used to play hammer most of the time since her big revamp. I have a +11 OJ enchanted hammer but, I still end up soloing Season 2 bosses with my +9 Lvl 80 event Longsword because she the damage is insane with the Focal Point Spam. I can also get so much burst from Shield Enhancement into Amaranth Kick. As much as I enjoy spinning and smashing things with my hammer, I'm working toward my getting a 90/95 Longsword.

    Hammer is definitely weaker and can use some changes. I don't agree with a complete rework though. I think they should increase the range of her attacks as well.

    If you compare hammer with other chars you would find her actually quite playable. Her gameplay could be very rewarding. As said before, imo, the problem is with Longsword. Longsword has a very similar playstyle in general and a far more higher damage base due to the counter attack. I woulnd't say hammer needs "buff", but I think LS should get nerfed. For example making counter attack > stigma hammer only, and LS can't link 3rd normal attack after counter since LS's counter is strong enough.

    Let's just say, Hammer and Longsword don't have a significant difference at all. why would ppl choose a weak weapon(hammer) over the strong one?

    Counter Attack, Amaranth Kick, Focal Point all hit harder than Stigma Hammer. It's just so easy for Sword to deal a ton damage in a short amount of damage.

    I suggest decreasing the damage significantly on one of them or slightly on two. I definitely feel like Focal Point needs to be toned down, because she can spam that skill endlessly, by just dashing and deflecting. She can gain SP really fast with Counter Attack + Amaranth + Cat Statue.

    Right, now, Sword Fiona is like a low skill high reward character, while hammer needs to land and deflect her enhanced swings, but I'm quite sure Sword Fiona can easily out DPS that. She became queen of solo, while still being really good in for sandbags bosses. Hammer's playstyle feels a bit more enjoyable and comfortable for players including me. But what's the point when Sword just does everything better?
  • IbNoobIbNoob
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    speed is the big problem that needs to be fixed first
    Jaye
  • GewelliriousGewellirious
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    Samalenko wrote: »
    Let's just say, Hammer and Longsword don't have a significant difference at all. why would ppl choose a weak weapon(hammer) over the strong one?
    Jaye wrote: »
    But what's the point when Sword just does everything better?

    I don't know... gameplay interest ? I feel better off playing Hammer due to how it is designed rather than spamming shift+R while using sword. Yeah that was a generalisation but idk, Sword is completely annoying, and it's regretful seeing she has a lot of extra combos, but whoever use them anymore ? (that's like telling you why you don't use extra combo of Fanning Slash on Sw.Lann LOL)

    Hammer still bae.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited June 7
    An hammer Fiona in the right hands will be on point for sure.For the speed you just have to use your slashing high and for those saying stigma don't hit harder than an amaranth or an enhanced counter combo,see@21:16



    It's just one of these classes that feels less conveniant if i may say,so not a lot of players stick to her to the point of acheiving a superior level of play.She is for advanced or patient players.She probably requires an all lot of practice throught the differant battles in party and solo play to get to that level.

    Another point,see@56:44,he fits a regular stigma before parrying and than gives an enhanced stigma.This is just one of the tecniques that makes the differance between a standard Hammer user and a great one.It's the same way an Hurk who just stalls for Crescents and Full Moons won't be effective,he has to land a lot of other hits in between.So therefor you have to go much further than a typical/safe attack rotation and fit the most damage possible between your main tools.

    This guy knows exactly when to counter and when to parry instead to enhance his smashes and make up for the non-counter enhancement feature.Very nice gameplay.
  • LeucosieLeucosie
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    JessGame wrote: »
    for those saying stigma don't hit harder than an amaranth or an enhanced counter combo,see@21:16

    Right but there are very few situations in game where you can use lvl 3 double stigmas ^^


  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited June 8
    Leucosie wrote: »
    JessGame wrote: »
    for those saying stigma don't hit harder than an amaranth or an enhanced counter combo,see@21:16

    Right but there are very few situations in game where you can use lvl 3 double stigmas ^^


    Maybe,i don't play enough Fiona to precisely say.Most will probably just close distance with a sprint Focal instead of charging and parrying since it requires less timing.Or they would wait for a perfect block.I have to say that the parry window is pretty good thoe,there is a certain delay after the parry that you can afford before combining the doubled stigma(or wichever chained attack)so it allows you to play with it.

    One example real quick would be when Regina is in the air after the grab attempt and she dives toward you.Her recovery after the spin is long enough for you to start another combo after you land the double Stigma.

    Also Second charge Stigma is comparable to amaranth.


    It's definitely not a feature that you can constantly use indeed,but it might fit efficiently where most people dont think it would.
  • LeucosieLeucosie
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    You are right, the ability to do so definitely tells a really good hammer fiona from a normal one
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    edited June 10
    idk if you ever really watched the solo. The player plays basically like a LS Fiona with a nerfed damage and combo. Spamming FC and CA. Not the usual Slashing high butterfly combo Fiona. I feel sad for the hammer player(not bcs he played badly bcs he is actually really good), in order to solo Neamhain you essentially just play in a LS mechanic.

    I can't find anything more ironic .

    EDIT:
    If you don't know what is the usual mechanic for Hammer Fiona, check this out and compared it with any random LS Fiona solo.
  • JessGameJessGame
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    Samalenko wrote: »
    idk if you ever really watched the solo. The player plays basically like a LS Fiona with a nerfed damage and combo. Spamming FC and CA. Not the usual Slashing high butterfly combo Fiona. I feel sad for the hammer player(not bcs he played badly bcs he is actually really good), in order to solo Neamhain you essentially just play in a LS mechanic.

    I can't find anything more ironic .

    EDIT:
    If you don't know what is the usual mechanic for Hammer Fiona, check this out and compared it with any random LS Fiona solo.

    I have seen this channel long ago and many more solos,party play.Zecallion doesn't compare to every other bosses since the timings/opportunities for deflection,counter and other attacks are differant.Make the comparison over a much larger sample of maps if you want to draw a conclusion in term of solo clears timings.

    Back on topic,i still think that if played an a very optimal way,hammer doesn't necessarely need a buff as she currently has all the tools to do great damage and survive extremely well .What you call the typical slashing high/Butterfly swing combo will only serve it's purpose in easy fights where you have enough HP and defense to whisthand the boss hits until it dies.In serious fights you have to be more creative and the focal skill applies to both weapons,might as well use it efficiently on hammer as well.

    The nerf damage that you are reffering to would only apply to the fact that the second counter can't be enhanced with hammer.But it stops there,where you feel like your loosing damage from the counters you are in fact recuparating the damage else where if you know how to time your charged stigmas.

    Also check the amount of SP recuperated from a double stigma combo in the video you linked,compare it to a double counter on Sword.SP recuperation in *most* situations will give you a clue to designate a damage comparison.

    1 last thing,he is going for a no hit solo,so that's a very clean prospective.Some other solo will involve hitting throught Slashing High or Stone frames.


    Check the Neam Solo again and also observe that when the boss hits him,he will always grab the parry buff to make sure he gets the additional damage(example 38:06).Right after the parry he land a buffed stigma and he chained 2 focals to fill the damage he could in the window he had.Both focal are equal to the damage that an amaranth would of done after using a double counter.

    I watched the video yes.Did you?
  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    edited June 10
    Or just go to play Hammer in Neam instead of commenting here. Maybe you'd understand me eventually,

    I never thought Hammer needs a buff, I just think LS should get a nerf

    Or this :

    LS Fiona


    Hammer Fiona (mine)


    At least you should have known Hammer Fiona is highly Slashing High dependent . In this Neamhain solo the OP contributes much less of his SP into SH . This is purely LS Style.

    If you ever, ever understand a better bit of Hammer Fiona, you would have got the sarcasm behind this "Hammer" Fiona solo
  • JessGameJessGame
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    Samalenko wrote: »
    Or just go to play Hammer in Neam instead of commenting here. Maybe you'd understand me eventually,

    I never thought Hammer needs a buff, I just think LS should get a nerf

    Or this :

    LS Fiona


    Hammer Fiona (mine)


    At least you should have known Hammer Fiona is highly Slashing High dependent . In this Neamhain solo the OP contributes much less of his SP into SH . This is purely LS Style.

    If you ever, ever understand a better bit of Hammer Fiona, you would have got the sarcasm behind this "Hammer" Fiona solo

    Quite simple.since you often encourage one to go try this or record that.Poeple won't care enough to equip a character just to record a video evidence of something and post it here or at least it would be a little extreme.Be realistic

    The Neamhain solo is on point from A to Z and he manages his SP in a very calculated way.He did use Slashing High many times and sometimes Shield Charge to get the Status instead.

    From there,i go by the principle that if one can make it happen others also can.This guy was able to make it happen and use his best features where they must fit in order to cut time.He is skilled and he did his maths if i may say.When he chooses to go for Focal instead,it's because he knows it will fit better in the current context versus using Slashing High on cooldown,wich shows that he had his shares of testings.He could have used Slashing high at very available opportunity,but end up not being able to pull a quick damage with Focal due to lack of SP.

    He played in a very well-rounded and caculated way and that is among the reasons he is a very great Hammer Fiona.There is not much videos out there that shows how an Hammer can compete with longsword and most people won't bother going where he did.Not because they are bad,but because the shield enhancement adds more *conveniance* to the gameplay,less calculation,but the damage output is about the same.

    So they stick with what seems more conveniant.
    Once again if you read clearly,i think that a good hammer user will be able to compete if he can determinate what to use and when to use it.Nothing about playing like a Sword Fiona was brought and it's actully non-relevant because despite the similarities the two stlye are differant,the timings are differant,the skill usage is also slightly differant.

    In the 2 Glas videos you compared here,i am pretty sure you can shave some time.One example is in the 1st phase:

    -You block the spin smash instead of parrying it
    -You stall a little too long to land the doubled stigma(the idea is to land it quick enough to be able to strike again before blocking)

    All the damage you can squeeze you have to,otherwise you won't beat any longsword timing.

    Another example:
    1:40 there was literally no point in not taking a parry,you could have land a buffed stigma from the drop

    You play very good in general,but this particular run was so far from refined and a lot of damage/time is waisted.


    Like i said hammer requires more creativity and the guy from the Neamhain solo is very creative,very structured.


  • SamalenkoSamalenko
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    edited June 10
    I blocked the spin bcs I need to reposition myself with feather dash to make sure I will be fight behind Glas , where I could make sure my Stigma hits right on him whether he does the follow up swing or not..

    It is impossible to both do feather dash reposition + parry..

    LS however , doesn't need the reposistion.

    1:40 was a misplay.

    Hammer Fiona CANNOT beat any LS Fiona solo by any means. similar stats ofc. It is impossible. Feel free to prove me wrong,

    About topic, the hammer Fiona plays essentially just another LS Fiona combo. where is the point of playing hammer, when both weapons are very similar in play style . Why would someone go for the weaker weapon? Siren plays really like a hammer fiona, but most of time ppl have to do it the LS way for more damage/dps. Don't you find it ironic?

    At the last, I really suggest u play a bit more hammer to understand it better. You don't need a geared chars. I made clean hammer solo also, If you like I could post some.

    Hammer is the very few class that isn't speed hungry at all and still playable with low speed

  • JessGameJessGame
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    edited June 10
    Samalenko wrote: »
    I blocked the spin bcs I need to reposition myself with feather dash to make sure I will be fight behind Glas , where I could make sure my Stigma hits right on him whether he does the follow up swing or not..

    It is impossible to both do feather dash reposition + parry..

    LS however , doesn't need the reposistion.

    1:40 was a misplay.

    Hammer Fiona CANNOT beat any LS Fiona solo by any means. similar stats ofc. It is impossible. Feel free to prove me wrong,

    About topic, the hammer Fiona plays essentially just another LS Fiona combo. where is the point of playing hammer, when both weapons are very similar in play style . Why would someone go for the weaker weapon? Siren plays really like a hammer fiona, but most of time ppl have to do it the LS way for more damage/dps. Don't you find it ironic?

    At the last, I really suggest u play a bit more hammer to understand it better. You don't need a geared chars. I made clean hammer solo also, If you like I could post some.

    Hammer is the very few class that isn't speed hungry at all and still playable with low speed


    You can close distance and put yourself in perfect position with the counters themself.That's a phase that i just practiced right now,im showing the fails as well on purpose just to show how you can practice something.You see the mistake and you adjust from it.It took me 1 min and half to propose a fix to an issue that you had,it's rather confusing as if you really tried and practiced every possible ways to boost your damage and refine your gameplay:

    (This video is only showing how to counter into a safe postition when he does the 360 attack,some cancels,nothing else)



    If i ever max my skills and equip a hammer wich won't happen soon,i will be glad to draw some comparisons.Althoe personally i can see a *potential* from simply watching a well executed video,wich was showcased in the Neamhain video i linked and some other videos as well.

    Hammer Fiona can cancel her animations as well with appropriate timing and the parry can be insta-canceled with heavy standard..If you had a plan in mind and timing is too short after a dash,you can cut it with heavy standard and either block or parry at the last second.

    You have a point,Fiona can be very efficient even with a low enhanced weapon,but you proposed to play some Fiona in Neamhain,there's no making it to Neamhain phase in solo with a Veteran Hammer.

    You can see my Fiona build at the end,everything is rank F and im focused on 1 character right now,so there will not be any time spent on bulding her or gearing her at all unfortunately,unless i decide that i want to invest in her.

    In overall i still think that there is features that are not exploited properly when it comes to playing Hammer Fiona.If you look on Youtube at the ratio of video that showcases Hammer fiona on a very high level of play,you'll realize that there are very few of them in comparison to other classes,yet they are existant.They have been posted by players who took the necessary time to polish their gameplay.You play very well if i check your channel and videos in general.The way you play Hammer is not as complete as the way you play other characters thoe.When there is not a lot of examples around you must experiment,fail,adjust a lot and be very creative: