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CB's Forgotten Weapon Style!

CreamCream
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edited March 27 in Vella
I posted this TL;DR on another thread but I decided that it is good information, so, I want to keep it more visible for those that want to dive into the CB weapon style. This is not intended to discourage anyone from trying or using CB's, in fact, is to create awareness on the subject and prepare you for what to expect and what not!


Vella CB is a true DPS class but Vindi has every class as DPS. Which in fact ruins the class selection feature.

CB Vella has almost no useful attack skills aside from Flurry and Red Blizzard which this 2 are only effective with mobs (using these with a boss takes time and sp that can be used with Hailstorm) ;) , CB's are an awesome weapon but by the time you make them awesome (normal player standpoint) is too late there is something else to go for. CB Vella requires a gargantuan amount of stamina and attack speed to be really effective. As is now the developers have CB Vella more like a support class rather than a true DPS class. I say this because back when we had only 5 or 6 characters and the cooldowns, were not 20 minutes or so, CB Vella was needed somewhat more than now.

If you take the skills that a CB has and go to a battle as Ein Lacher, the number of skills available is reduced by 2 and other skills are there but won't do anything as for Black Ice, so in reality is 3 skills that are unavailable in solo battle I do not know if these conditions are true for other characters). No terminus and no Frostbite, which the latter fails incredibly so much anywhere anyways. Even on regular battles, almost every boss can shrug off Terminus and that is truly annoying, compared to other characters that they have auto-skill that locks the boss and have these cool cutscenes (beating the life out of them) B) . Even other characters can use their top skills; let's say Kai's their "Nuke" on RAR but we can't use terminus. Even more, the damage dealt by CB terminus is so pathetic compared to other characters regular skills, not 1k sp skills that drop complete health bars on bosses. :o

The Glint/Biting Cold is even worse, this feature I have tried so many different ways to use it successfully but it fails more than it works. There are days that works like a charm and OMG I am so happy but is more the time that is bugged out or not working at all. :'(

When the Vella update was implemented we got this whatever skill "Glacial Strike" that I have no comments for this skill. I don't even use it because if I want to DPS well, I need my Heart of Ice and Blood Chill. Again, damage inflicted is pathetic for the actual cost/loss of the skill.

Black Ice - Black ice is a good skill for mid-bosses and team playing other than that is a total waste of space since most S2, S3 and on bosses and most mid-bosses are immune to it. This was a great skill when the cap was level 60 but now is totally useless.

So to recap, Vella has 6 Active attack skills but, one is not good in almost all content Black Ice. Two of the remaining 5 Frost Bite and Glacier Terminus Fail too much and underpowered, even more, these 2 can't be used in solo battles (Black Ice has no use in solo). Three remain now, Glacial Strike is not recommended due to the amount of HoI consumed to be effective, with CB you want to Hailstorm, not Glacial Strike. We have 2 Active attack skills to use now, Red Blizzard and Blade Dance. So this proves that Vella CB is really hurting skill wise. Only 2 Active Attack skills that can be used when other characters have OMGERD a massive repertoire.
  1. Black Ice - useless
  2. Glacial Strike - useless
  3. Glacier Terminus - underpowered. Is more like an emergency situation skill ATM or team playing if you wish. Lacks damage.
  4. Frost Bite - Fails extremely too much and useless in most battles

I could keep going into details for EVAR!!!!!

Anyways, if we are a true DPS class and we have to fight stationary, why we get so nerfed? Why don't we have Slashing High? Why can we not absorb damage? Why is the recovery time from a dodge so long? Why don't we have a shield? Why don't we have some type of invulnerability? Vella CB needs so much attention compared to the rest of other classes. Even on this last update, we didn't get anything. I mean the darn Miri is flying around Dragon style haha! :#

I do love the suggestion by @CptMcFly on this thread, of stepping back since the only thing Vella does while in Hailstorm is slide forward!

Also, I want to make clear that this is NOT a guide this is information only to understand that CB Vella is indeed seriously lacking skills. If you want a basic guide on how to, you can review the following Guide by @SirRFI

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EiriJinyieLoLoBooty

Comments

  • CreamCream
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    Updated my thread with some FUNWORK!!!!!! I hope you guys like it!
  • BreastGrillBreastGrill
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    edited March 27
    A couple of misconceptions I'd like to clear up:

    Vella has a lot more useful SP sinks thanks to her "revamp" back in the day. Aside from blood chill, Vella has access to blade dance and glacial strike, but most of your sp will be used on blade dance if you can find the right times to use it. Red Blizzard was an okay skill to use for maneuvering and getting in extra damage before her revamp, but with the introduction of her new actives, red blizzard is actually not an important skill to use anymore as your sp prioritization will go to blood chill and blade dance almost all the time.

    Glacial strike is also not a bad skill at all; The total damage you can hit from landing it right is worth more than at most 2 or 3 seconds of HOI swinging and it returns one coldheart stack back to you if even one hit lands. This is why some people here and there mention it is useful if you use it right at the end of your HOI duration. You can boost your damage at the very end of an HOI duration, while most importantly getting back one coldheart stack, which saves more time on getting to your next 10-stack (this is actually a lot more helpful than what other people may think).

    Other than that, I agree that chainblade has a handful of neglected actives that are more or less situational (except black ice which is completely useless), but she's never in a bad spot. Regardless, I too hope chainblade vella gets a bit more love from the devs. Cheers.
  • CreamCream
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    edited March 27
    @BreastGrill

    Hi,

    Thanks for adding your post to the topic B) I totally agree with you in term of that on the revamp CB's got new useful skills, but how some of these work or advertised in Patch Notes as "skills that produce massive/great/powerful damage/attack, I am not happy with that. My post is mostly out of concern of the lack of useful skills and the damage that these skills produce or procure from a successful attack (not mentioning that some skills require a perfect centered hit for intended results) :s

    I am not going to discuss what you very well described in terms of Blade Dance and/or what can be said about Blood Fountain. However, I will say something about the possible damage inflicted from utilizing GS in comparison to simply right click at the end of HoI (which it produces an additional attack from the Avalanche skill). I mean is it worth it to use my remaining SP on GS attempt, instead of doing a full HoI, then the last hit with Avalanche without any additional SP cost (as I do normally since GS is not accurate or good enough if it is not a perfect hit). I mean there is a line (logical one) about the intended or real application of any skill and GS IMHO, is not worth it. I personally recommend people to test it out and decide what is better if to use GS or consume HoI completely with an Avalanche hit at the end.

    I completely feel that CB's are the one true DPS weapons in the game if the game were balanced by class and not DPS only for every class. Vindictus is an amazing game when it comes to the dynamics/mechanics in terms of fighting (OMG the fashion!!!! <3). Nevertheless, when it comes to class selection, yes we do have different classes but all are DPS, DPS, DPS etc.. I just want/hope that CB's can have an additional skill that can produce massive damage as the other classes have since we are not the only DPS class, so is only fair/logical that CB's get in-sync with other classes when it comes to skills and the damage inflicted.

    To anyone that is interested, do test the results from GS in the last few seconds (will consume 250 SP) against an Avalanche hit at the last second! The latter at no SP cost!

    It is a conflicting scenario when putting some thought into the choice;
    • GS - do some damage and gain one stack towards CH but lose 250 SP and the HoI state
    • Avalanche strike - do some damage without consuming SP but no CH stack gain

    I believe the answer is in every individual play style. Is a catch 22 of sorts!

    P.S. I don't think is misconception is more like a difference of opinions based on the choices available ;)

    Have a nice day all!
  • BreastGrillBreastGrill
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    edited March 27
    @Cream

    If you play cb well enough, the amount of sp that glacial strike uses is insignificant, and glacial strike should not be prioritized before blood chill and blade dance in sp usage as I've mentioned before, but if you can spare the sp, Glacial Strike can be beneficial for its sp cost.

    If you Glacial Strike as soon as your HOI timer hits 0, you will hit about an extra 3 seconds worth of damage compared to simply opting for avalanche at the end of your HOI duration. For sense of scale, my glacial strike can hit about 42k damage on average total every time i land it correctly. If I opt for avalanche, I will only do a fraction of that damage I would get from Glacial Strike. For the sp cost and how much excess sp you generate as a cb vella, i find it is often worth trying to land as often as possible. If you don't land it well, it won't detriment you at all since cb vella generates sp very easily, as wasting that sp will seldom deter you from continuing to use blood chill and blade dance at an optimal level.

    time stamped : the timestamp here is to showcase my normal avalanche damage which is 10k if it crits and 5k if it doesn't.

    now pay attention to the total damage i can pull off with a single glacial strike.


    comparing numbers between a simple avalanche and a glacial strike shows that glacial strike can be very beneficial to your damage for its sp cost, but as i've mentioned it's all about landing glacial strike properly, which takes practice.

    and as I've said before, i feel that cb vella is never in a really bad spot compared to the other characters of the cast, despite never being touched by devcat, but I do also agree with the sentiment that I wish devcat gave cb more attention as well.

    with the new arisha balance which lets her start off with some mana, I would've appreciated if cb vella started with some stacks as well. :'(
    TsiiiCream
  • CreamCream
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    edited March 27
    I can agree that the amount of SP utilized by GS is not a great amount, however, the damage procured by the skill been dependent to the situation or better said to the accuracy on any given situation still not good enough for my play style. There are other skills I can utilize in the split moment if calculated correctly that can render more damage but I do need the SP. Meaning that GS for me still not attractive or is not an optimal skill. I can utilize it and I have and do sometimes but I rather not too.

    Thank you for posting your videos, is very nice gameplay! Nonetheless, it proves something that I've been saying from sometime that the damage inflicted by GS is for lack of better words pathetic. It is damage yes but GOD so not competitive with other classes skills damage ratios.

    As I said before, is a choice depending on how you play. I prefer to save my accumulated SP for other factors (skills/boosts) in that short window where you make use of GS.

    OMG!!!! <3 That would be totally awesome starting with some stacks, even more, when Blade Dance sometimes is kind of sketchy stacking up!!!! :'(

    Thank you for your opinion is well explained!!! B)

    I have always called Blade Dance "cat fight" (I know is Fury Swipes) it reminds me my pokemon days and Meowth;
    https://coub.com/view/aixio
    35drXTn.gif
  • TsiiiTsiii
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    CB Vella is in a perfectly fine place damage wise. The only thing she needs is a few quality of life tweaks or fixes to skills that have been bugged since day 1 (those being biting cold working only 50% of the time, and the other being that she seems to get stuck on terrain way too much during frost jack and sometimes during normal dodges) Of the other things mentioned, I don't think she should have a block (this would ruin her risk vs reward and encourage poor positioning), I definitely don't think she should have slashing high (it would be fun, but it would be crazy broken), and I really don't think she should move when she's in HOI (again positioning, and this wouldn't be a problem if biting cold worked in the first place). What I will agree with is that blade dance needs a second look, and that the iframes on her dodge should be extended a bit more to better match how long the animation is. While we're at it, please fix frost jack's iframes too.

    Frankly, CB Vella is a very old and archaic design. Devcat designed themselves into a corner when they built her. Any particular buff to her would madly impact her 'dps ranking' and the same would happen for any particular nerf. Think about it, if she got slashing high, her damage would practically double or triple, maybe even quadruple (if you toss in a paw) during the span that its active. She needs to be stamina gated in order to keep her damage in check. Conversely, if she could block, she'd turn into a ranged tank dps? The element of risk vs reward would be so low that she'd be an even bigger meme of a 'brain dead class'. A lot of other people already call her brain dead, even though it's a misconception as there's a lot more depth to her despite her simplicity. She's a ranged character, and while many season 3 raids with their wide, sweeping attacks have chipped into this "defensive" part of her, it still needs to be taken into account. One can argue that her "turret" style gameplay is terrible design, but unfortunately that's the way Devcat defined her, and it's a big part of what makes her subtly complex. Position well, and you get to do oodles of damage. Position poorly, then you pay the consequences for it (which is again, exacerbated because biting cold is a steaming pile of garbage...)

    Also my two cents about glacial strike, it's a great skill when one knows how to use it properly. It's easy to get an excess 250 sp during the duration of HOI, and it's easy to get the remaining sp for blood chill while you're re-stacking. There's really little reason not to use it unless there's not enough time to fit in the animation, or you're saving sp for blade dance/some other more questionably useful sp skill. Blood chill does take priority, but 90% of the time, you have excess sp anyways so...
  • CreamCream
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    edited March 27
    So for what you are saying CB's should get stuck in the past and not catch up with new weapon styles and/or character skills that today even fly around (Miri). I have to disagree totally there.

    When I mentioned the block, slashing high and the movement while in HoI is to compare with other classes. Nevertheless, going by your opinion Kai shouldn't move around while using a Cross Gun, I mean is like you said a "turret". :D I do understand your point on the character design but is just that a design that can be enhanced or "revamped". Therefore, worrying about if the character becomes a range tank DPS, is unwarranted. What about other classes that are tank DPS whatever their class is.

    As I mentioned before the classes are fine but the way how these are set is not. In this game, there is no need for a class-specific role in battles. That being said, it is why I wish for some other skills for CB's because the system is already non-class functional and no matter what ability we get or gets revamp, it will be balanced regardless, to be in sync with the rest of the classes (or it should anyway). :|

    You mentioned that she should be stamina gated! This is only possible if there were no ways around that! Sadly, there is and IMHO other classes have way more skills to improve conditions as having the spin to win, slashing high and critical boost skills (all in one class and more) :# . Other classes have additionally major perks (buffs) as well), don't get me wrong I do love my Ice Breaker but that is as far as we go, no other buffs.

    Thank you for your insights!

  • TsiiiTsiii
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    edited March 27
    I think you're missing the point of what I posted.. I never said that CB should be stuck in the past and not catch up, what I'm saying is that the way she is designed right now does not allow for any significant changes without completely ruining her balance. But to the point of "not catching up to current classes" I'd say she doesn't need to catch up, she's already caught up. Or at least she would be if her dodge frames were marginally tweaked, and her pressing bugs were fixed. I hate using this counterpoint, but go to one of those class ranking things that people talk about in KR, and CB Vella is consistently ranked between the middle and upper tiers. Her numbers are fine, her damage is fine, the only thing that needs tweaking is her quality of life and how buggy some of the her skill set still is. I mean look at CB Vella's kit and if you really sit down and think about it, while it may be very simple in function, her core functionality covers literally all of the bases. I'll do a basic rundown of how this looks on paper.

    Primary DPS, stacks and hailstorm: high damage, spammable attack at the cost of no mobility, limited uptime, and high stamina cost. No mobility issue is solved by glint/biting cold, letting you move into a safe position and immediately resume attacking. Limited uptime is solved by blood fountain, letting you slow the decay of heart of ice. High stamina cost is offset by bloodfountain and ice breaker, letting you recover stamina faster while slowing the decay of HOI. Blood chill lets you extend the duration of HOI. Glacial Strike allows you to end HOI early if you need a tiny bit of burst, popped stacks at the wrong time and need to reset, or adds a nice bit of extra damage at the end of your HOI spam. Blade Dance allows you to quickly restack. Frost jack lets you gap close in an instant. Glint itself has tremendous travel distance.

    I don't know about you, but when I look at that kit, I see pretty much every single box ticked. I don't know what else I would add to it to make it better without directly changing damage or stamina cost. Yes, the kit is very single focus and you can argue that it's 'boring' and 'simple', but the fact remains that it accomplishes its goal very thoroughly. Now the problem is that once you take out a critical component of her kit, things fall apart ridiculously fast. In this case, Biting Cold is broken and doesn't work reliably. Frost Jack gets stuck on terrain. Blade dance has no range. Glint can get stuck on terrain. Here's what happens:

    Hailstorm still works fine, blood fountain is fine, ice breaker is fine. Because biting cold is broken you cannot immediately continue combos after dodging resulting in more decay of HOI time which means a huge loss in dps due to every second of HOI being so valuable. Stacking is slower because you cannot immediately resume combos. Stamina efficiency tanks because you have to fit in more basic attacks in order to pull off smashes. Frost jack and glint get stuck on terrain? Suddenly your mobility takes a huge hit and you're way more vulnerable to the boss. Blade dance has no range? Boss moves an inch, you're now stuck in an animation, gaining no stacks, and vulnerable to the enemy's attack, that's not even mentioning the fact that you wasted 250sp on hitting the air.

    Basically, all that's happening here is that a few gears in the machine are broken, and it's holding the machine back. She doesn't need buffs, she needs bug fixes!


    This comparison to Kai that you're using isn't very applicable. Kai plays completely different from Vella. Half of the time he is pretty much in melee range for (i think it was hollow shot?) Furthermore, he's not designed around a single stacked skill and spamming that one skill, he has an abundance of abilities and actives that are all rotated and used, meaning his design is not in any way similar to Vella. Ranged class does not mean turret mode, I said cb vella is turret mode because she was literally designed to sit still and spam hailstorm. Comparing her to kai is like literally comparing an apple to an orange.

    This comparison to lann that you are making makes even less sense to me. Lann's damage multipliers are completely different. His gameplay is completely different. What does him having buffs have anything to do with Vella? Lann needs those buffs because he's heartbreakingly gimped without them, that doesn't mean that Vella needs those buffs too, does it? Again, this is another apples to oranges comparison. The comparison isn't between the classes, it's what the result is at the end

    I think I do understand what you are trying to get at, it's just that I think you may be misidentifying the root of CB Vella's issues. Sure, a rework or a revamp may solve the issues I listed, but that's just a lateral change rather than a vertical one, and also a change that I think is really just unnecessary. Now if you're arguing that her kit is too simple and you want it to be diverse, then that's a completely different argument, and I'd say the only real option is a total rework.
    Venerator
  • CreamCream
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    edited March 27
    Now that you have explained your self in a better manner I can agree to the bug fixes you are mentioning. I cannot agree that she is still fine as you say.

    You mention the "skill set" and I say thank you for going there because is what I am talking about in my first post exactly! Yes, she has a skill set that covers most bases but with the implementation of new areas (seasons) or battlegrounds the "skill set" has become archaic and not sync with the current game status and//or conditions. The original post above covers all of the points about having skills that are not working as intended, good or good enough in many circumstances at this point in the game.

    I do not find CB's boring or simple I can agree with you that for what it has in it, gets the work done if the skills within the set were possible to be used in most circumstances, however, it is not the case. I refer that back to the original post; Ein Lacher battles, for example, the "Skill Set" shrinks greatly. So again this "Skill Set" is really not efficient as a few of the CB skills turn to be obsolete and others useless.

    Your opinion basicly states that CB's doesn't need more buffs or anything added to the "Skill Set" ( going by your closing statement ), my opinion is that the skill set is not good enough and needs attention e.g Forgotten Weapon Style!

    The last part you nitpick is a simple funny argument about class comparisons or an outcry, Q.Q, rant etc.. pick your choice if you wish! :D

    Again thank you for your opinion is valuable as well!